Harvey and Lee

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

The genuine 'Monty'

^[...]

Thank you, Steven.

So Monty had two doubles. M. E. Clifton James and Keith Deamer Banwell.

Wow.

How pertinent to the JFK assassination!

One only wonders if The Good Guys had an eye on James and Banwell some eleven years before the beginning of WW II. You know, so they could mingle their histories with Monty's just in case James or Banwell were captured and interrogated while impersonating him???

--Tommy

Edited March 16, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Bernie Laverick]

Oh Steven you do say some silly things.

Tell me again about Monty and his double...Did they arrange this when they were 11??????????

Likewise with Sadam...was that doppleganger secured when they were both 11 and just happened to grow up looking identical?

No one is saying that some people don't look similar. That is extremely disingenious.

And what wacky logic. Monty was impersonated so the ENTIRE H/L story must be true!

But you also throw in the isurance of it maybe being due to cosmetic surgery, extensive or not. So which one is it? You are the one posting on this theory. YOU have the onus to explain it. Not me.

But you yourself don't even have a clue do you? You've admitted that by posing two possible scenarios. This is on top of the other three scenarios posted by your fellow congregationalists.

So which is it? If you don't know stop posting on this topic! You are making yourself look more ridiculous than usual.

[Steven Gaal]

Monty was impersonated so the ENTIRE H/L story must be true! ......

No one is saying that some people don't look similar. That is extremely disingenious.

But you yourself don't even have a clue do you? You've admitted that by posing two possible scenarios...So which is it ? If you don't know stop posting on this topic!

// Laverick

+++++++++++++++++

Monty was impersonated so the ENTIRE H/L story must be true! (Laverick) Impersonation for intelligence purposes (as the Monty story "says" it was) gives the H/L idea credibility.

If you don't know stop posting on this topic! (Laverick) ( A rudely presumptive remark)
So which is it ? (Laverick)

Why does it have to be one or the other ?? I said it was an option.

===================================================================

To Jake Rubenstein, c/o The Carousel Club

William Weston
October 2001

On October 31, 1976, a government agent greeted a gray-haired gentleman who, on his own initiative, came into the FBI office in Memphis, Tennessee. He had a secret about the Kennedy assassination, he said, and he wanted to disclose it. [1]
The distinguished-looking visitor did not appear to be the type who would know something about the world of spies, pimps, drug dealers, con artists, and other disreputable denizens inhabiting the murky milieu of assassination intrigue. Daniel T. McGown, by anyone's standards, was a pillar of the community, a successful businessman with an honorable career in a prestigious profession. Born in 1908 in Brownwood, Texas, his family moved to Memphis prior to his graduation from high school. After receiving a degree from the School of Architecture at Georgia Tech, he went to work for Schulz & Norton, an architectural and engineering firm in Memphis. In 1941, he married Irma Lee Beasley, a daughter from one of Tennesee's more respectable families. During the course of their marriage, the couple had two children. In 1948, he started his own architectural firm, which over the years grew and prospered. He became president of the local chapter of the American Institute of Architects and was a member of the Calvary Episcopal Church. [2] Family man, businessman, church member, community server, Mr. McGown lived a life that was largely indistinguishable from thousands of other men of his class who lived around the country. However, in that fateful year of 1963, a strange twist of fate had placed within his hands a hitherto unknown secret regarding a connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby.
The incident occurred during a business trip to Texas in March 1963. McGown had flown to Austin, in order to check over the plans for a new building that was to be constructed on the campus of the University of Texas. When he had completed his survey, he rented a car and drove north to the city of Brownwood, where he spent a day with some relatives. He then drove to Fort Worth, where he visited his first cousin, a prominent attorney in that city. Late in the evening, he used his cousin's telephone to call his wife Irma. He wished her a happy birthday and said that he would see her the next day, when his plane arrived in Memphis. Irma's birthday was March 28.
McGown left his cousin's house and drove east to Dallas. It was almost midnight when he checked in at the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street. After getting settled into his room, he felt like having a nightcap before going to bed. He left his room, went down the elevator to the lobby, and went outside. The brightly lit sign of the Carousel Club beckoned from across the street. He walked over to the club entrance door and opened it. Behind the door was a staircase, leading up to the second floor. When he reached the top of the stairs, he was stopped by a heavy-set man. The club was closing up, the man said, who then complained about city regulations that prevented him from keeping the place open after midnight. [3] Rebuffed by the manager of the club, McGown went back to his room.
The following morning, McGown decided to do a little sightseeing, since he had a few hours to kill before his plane departed from Dallas. As he was walking down Commerce Street, he paused at the Carousel Club. Near the entrance was a showcase display featuring pictures of female performers. As he was gazing at the pictures, another man who was walking down the street crowded into the entryway to look at them too. It was an awkward moment for McGown as he tried to make room for the other man while at the same time trying to keep a favorable point of view for himself. Presently, the other man turned to leave. As he did so, he brushed by an overstuffed mailbox that hung on the entrance door. A few large pieces of mail, two magazines, and three letters spilled on the ground. The man continued on his way without stopping.
McGown proceeded to pick up the envelopes and magazines and stuff them back into the box. He noticed that the three letters were written by women and were addressed to "Jake Rubenstein, c/o The Carousel Club." Rubenstein must have been the heavy-set man whom McGown met the previous night. He was probably also the one who hired women to be performers in the club. Perhaps the senders of the three letters were prospective applicants for employment. McGown looked at the envelopes again. Two of the women lived in Fort Worth, and one lived in Dallas. The name on the Dallas letter caught his attention, for he happened to have a friend who had the same last name. [4] After making a mental note of the address, he put the letters back in the box with the rest of the mail. The woman he was planning to visit was "Lee Oswald."
Using a city map as a guide, McGown drove toward Miss Oswald's place. As he was approaching her street, he looked at the houses in the neighborhood. Expecting to see lower class housing, he was surprised to find upper middle class or upper class residences. McGown wondered about this. Why would anyone living in such an area have any dealings with a strip joint?
When he arrived at his destination, he stopped the car and looked at it. It was a two-story apartment building, constructed in the cheap, boxy style that was becoming the prevailing fashion at that time. It had an outside stairway that led up to a balcony walk on the second floor. It was a new building, perhaps two or three years old at the most. For the convenience of the postman, there was a mailbox with individual compartments that stood facing the street next to the curb. In order to find the unit that Miss Oswald was renting, McGown got out of his car and looked over the names of the tenants posted on the compartment doors. When he found Oswald's name, he realized that he had made a mistake. The middle name of Lee Harvey Oswald showed that this person was not a woman. Without further ado, McGown got back into his car and drove away.
Eight months later, when the names of Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby were being broadcasted on radio and television, the details of this episode came vividly back to his memory. Should he tell the authorities what he knew, or should he not? His reputation might suffer if this embarrassing incident ever became widely known. He hoped that the authorities would find out about Oswald's connection to Jack Ruby without his help. When the Warren Report was published, he bought a copy and read it from cover to cover. There was nothing in it to indicate that the government knew what he knew. Furthermore he read that the commission could find no "credible evidence" of an association between Oswald and Ruby. After the death of Jack Ruby in January 1967, McGown wondered if he was the only one left who still had the "credible evidence" that eluded the Warren Commission. Finally, nine years later, he told his wife about it. She encouraged him to go to the FBI. After all, his story might make a difference in the new, upcoming investigation into the JFK assassination that Congress was preparing to launch. Such were the circumstances that led Daniel T. McGown to the local office of the FBI in 1976.
The FBI of course wanted to know where the apartment was. McGown could not remember its exact location, but he drew a diagram depicting the apartment in relation to the mailbox out front, as well as in relation to a nearby apartment that faced another street. He remembered that the address had four digits and sounded something like "Diceland." A Dallas city map showed that there were was no street with the name of "Diceland," but there were two with the name of "Diceman." One was Diceman Drive, and the other was Diceman Avenue.
Dallas FBI agent Robert Gemberling drove out to Diceman Drive to see if there were any apartments matching McGown's diagram and description. Diceman Drive had single-family houses but no apartments. A few inquiries among the residents showed that no apartment had ever existed on that street.
Next stop was Diceman Avenue. Gemberling looked from one end of the avenue to the other, and the only dwellings that he could see were single-family homes - with one exception. At the point where Diceman ran into Cedar Crest Boulevard was a two-story building made of brick. It was the Cedar Crest Heights Apartment. It had a second floor balcony walk with an iron railing just as McGown described it. Next to the curb was a large mailbox with sixteen key-locked compartments with tenant nametags. Adjacent to the building was another apartment facing Birdsong Street. The apartment at 1106 Diceman Avenue must be the place that McGown had visited in 1963. There was no other possibility. Still, Gemberling was not satisfied. He noticed that all the buildings in the neighborhood were rundown, dilapidated, and occupied entirely by lower-class blacks. This was not the upper class neighborhood that McGown claimed to have seen.
Gemberling looked for the manager. He found him at a nearby office at 2514 Birdsong Avenue. The manager told him that the apartment was owned by a company called General Rental. It was built around 1959 or 1960, and it was the only apartment that had ever been on that street. The mailbox seen out front had been there since the apartment was first constructed. So far these extra details provided additional confirmation for McGown's story. Gemberling wanted to see the tenant records for 1963, but the manager told them that they no longer existed. They were destroyed with all the other tenant records in a fire that occurred in April 1968. Gemberling asked the manager if he knew anything about Oswald living in the apartment in 1963. Although the manager acknowledged that he had only been working for General Rental since 1969, he was nevertheless positive that Oswald could not have lived in the apartment in 1963. In an all-black neighborhood, people would have certainly remembered Oswald as the only white man living among them, and such was not the case.
Apparently the manager's statement was enough to convince Gemberling that the 1106 Diceman lead was a dead end. No further inquiries were made, as far as the available records show. (There are however some "postponed in full" documents from the Memphis office of the FBI regarding a "Daniel McGowen" that are now in the National Archives.) To find out more about the apartment, I checked the 1963 Dallas criss-cross directory and found a former tenant by the name of Orlean Dorsey. I located Dorsey in Lufkin, Texas and called him up. Contrary to what the General Rental manager told Gemberling, Dorsey, who is black, said it was not an all-black apartment in 1963. Both white and black people lived there. Furthermore, the apartment was indeed located in a prestigious area. About a mile south of the apartment was the Lakeview Golf Course, where Dorsey worked as a landscape and maintenance man. Among the celebrities who played golf there were such baseball legends as Mickey Mantle and "Dizzy" Dean. At that time, the golf course was racially segregated. Whites played there during the day and blacks played at night.
Not just anyone could live at the Cedar Crest Apartment. A prospective tenant had to have a very good background and excellent references. Dorsey was able to get his unit because he knew the manager, a black named Denny Blair, who often played golf at Lakeview. Blair was an employee of Bailey Rental, a white-owned company that had title to the Diceman apartment. (Bailey Rental was later renamed General Rental.)
The Cedar Crest Apartment was an expensive place to live. It took all of Dorsey's wages to pay the rent. He was making $1.25 per hour and the rent was about $210 per month. The only way he could afford to live there was by working a lot of overtime on the weekends. By way of comparison, Oswald was making $1.35 per hour at Jaggers Chiles Stovall during the month of March 1963, and he was paying $72.68 a month for a one-bedroom flat at the Neely Street house. [5]
Dorsey and his family moved into the apartment in November 1962. Because of his long working hours and because he was going to plumbing school at the same time, he did not get to know the other tenants. His wife and children also did not do much socializing. Thus he was unable to confirm or deny whether Oswald lived there. Dorsey and his family moved to another apartment in October 1963.
The transition from an affluent, mainly white neighborhood to black lower class ghetto occurred during the mid-1960's, according to Dorsey who would come back to visit his former apartment from time to time. The quality of the building and the surrounding area deteriorated as a result of vandalism and neglect. When I called the General Rental office in 1995, I found out that the apartment was still owned by the Bailey family. I also learned that rent was only $50 per week - a real bargain for anyone brave enough to live there.
Did Oswald live at the Cedar Crest Apartment? Considering the high cost of rent in 1963, it is unlikely he would have chosen to live there. A more reasonable possibility is that he used the address simply to receive his mail. As a man astute in the ways of intelligence, he no doubt realized that a mailbox at the post office was under surveillance. A second mailbox in another area would be highly useful for receiving mail from more sensitive sources. This line of reasoning is supported by the fact that most of the units at 1106 Diceman were listed as "vacant" in the criss-cross directories of 1962 and 1963. In 1962 only five of the sixteen units available were occupied. This ratio dropped to only four occupied units the following year. An apartment manager with a 75% vacancy rate might let someone temporarily use an unused mailbox for a small fee.
It is interesting to note that on March 29, the day that McGown was at the Diceman apartment, Oswald was seen at a barbershop in Sparta, Wisconsin. Oswald told John Abbott, the barber, that he got his money by blackmailing a Texas nightclub operator, for whom he had previously worked. Each time he made a contact with this man, he would get fifty dollars. The money he obtained would be used to cover his travelling expenses. (He never gave the name of the nightclub operator.) Perhaps the Oswald letter that McGown saw was another demand for more money.
McGown's story lends credence to the story of a connection between Ruby and Oswald in the May 17 edition of the National Enquirer. It said: "After a sniper shot at but missed General Walker in Dallas, April 10, 1963, Dallas police suspected that Oswald was the sniper and Ruby was the payoff man. The cops were set to arrest the pair. But they never got the chance, because of heavy pressure brought to bear by the Justice Dept. and so Oswald and Ruby were to remain free." The article also said that a top secret document, signed by a high official of the Justice Dept., was sent in April 1963 to Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry requesting the police not to arrest Oswald and Ruby. This document was reportedly in the hands of the Warren Commission.
Given the potentially explosive implications of the above story, it is no wonder that the Warren Commission chose to discount all witnesses to a connection between Oswald and Ruby, including Wilburn Litchfield, Joe Franklin, and Bill DeMar. McGown's story is not only important in rehabilitating the credibility of these undeservedly maligned witnesses, but it also provides a glimpse into the covert ways by which Oswald and Ruby communicated with one another.


ENDNOTES

1. Sources for this article were FBI reports in Memphis and Dallas. Also referred to were ten pages of McGown's hand-written account that was photocopied by the FBI.
2. Engagement announcement, Sept. 14, 1941; wedding announcement, Dec. 3, 1941, and obituary of Daniel T. McGown, March 5, 1985, in the Memphis newspaper, The Commercial Appeal.
3. According to Jack Ruby's bartender, Andrew Armstrong, clean up started at midnight on weeknights and at 1:00 am on Saturday and Sunday. All bottles and glasses had to be cleared off the tables by 12:15. If a vice squad police officer saw anyone drinking after 12:15, he could slap a five-day suspension on the club (Vol. 13 of the Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, p. 325).
4. Actually the friend's surname had a slightly different spelling. Felix Oswalt, a member of the Board of Education in Memphis, was the friend McGown was talking about.
5. Warren Report, p. 743.

____________________________________________________________
A professional man is traveling alone and
sees an opportunity to meet strippers.

Eight months later, when the names of Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby were being broadcasted on radio and television, the details of this episode came vividly back to his memory. Should he tell the authorities what he knew, or should he not? His reputation might suffer if this embarrassing incident ever became widely known. He hoped that the authorities would find out about Oswald's connection to Jack Ruby without his help. When the Warren Report was published, he bought a copy and read it from cover to cover. There was nothing in it to indicate that the government knew what he knew. Furthermore he read that the commission could find no "credible evidence" of an association between Oswald and Ruby. After the death of Jack Ruby in January 1967, McGown wondered if he was the only one left who still had the "credible evidence" that eluded the Warren Commission. Finally, nine years later, he told his wife about it. She encouraged him to go to the FBI. After all, his story might make a difference in the new, upcoming investigation into the JFK assassination that Congress was preparing to launch. Such were the circumstances that led Daniel T. McGown to the local office of the FBI in 1976.
**********************************************

(Gaal)
PAUSE AND REFLECT
PAUSE AND REFLECT
PAUSE AND REFLECT ...............
What would motivate a professional married man to contact the FBI and say he ," improperly looked at US Mail and wanted to 'hunt' down a stripper." ???? Would /could this not hurt his career ?? (YUP)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Answer ZERO. Harvey & Lee per Armstrong a real thing.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Steven Gaal

[Thomas Graves]

Steven Gaal posted:

" Perhaps the Oswald letter that McGown saw was another demand for more money. McGown's story lends credence to the story of a connection between Ruby and Oswald in the May 17 edition of the National Enquirer. It said: "After a sniper shot at but missed General Walker in Dallas, April 10, 1963, Dallas police suspected that Oswald was the sniper and Ruby was the payoff man. The cops were set to arrest the pair. But they never got the chance, because of heavy pressure brought to bear by the Justice Dept. and so Oswald and Ruby were to remain free." The article also said that a top secret document, signed by a high official of the Justice Dept., was sent in April 1963 to Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry requesting the police not to arrest Oswald and Ruby. This document was reportedly in the hands of the Warren Commission. "

Wow.

The National Enquirer!

Do you read it often, Steven?

"A Flying Saucer Landed In The Nosey Stalker's Back Yard And It Was Just Chock Full Of Genetically-Altered Harveys And Lees And Harveys and Lees and, and ... Oh My God! ... "

Perhaps, reportedly...

(LOL)

--Tommy

Edited March 17, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Bernie Laverick]

Monty was impersonated so the ENTIRE H/L story must be true! (Laverick) Impersonation for intelligence purposes (as the Monty story "says" it was) gives the H/L idea credibility.

If you don't know stop posting on this topic! (Laverick) ( A rudely presumptive remark)
So which is it ? (Laverick)

Why does it have to be one or the other ?? I said it was an option

Staggering! So it was for intelligence purposes was it steven? Who would have thought? Here was me thinking it was for an appearance on X Factor! Monty making the Nazis thinking he was up to something else is absolute proof that H/L is true...great logic!

They were just "options" were they? So, as I said, you obviously don't know what the real truth is; you are simply guessing. But if you, as a proponent of the theory, don't know the answers why should anyone take you seriously?

[Bernie Laverick]

A Flying Saucer Landed In The Stalker's Back Yard And It Was Just Chock Full Of Genetically-Altered Harveys And Lees And Harveys And Lees and, and ... "

Tommy, you're getting good at this.,, That actually makes more sense. And anyway you didn't say that this is what happened you're just saying it's an OPTION!!!

[Thomas Graves]

A Flying Saucer Landed In The Stalker's Back Yard And It Was Just Chock Full Of Genetically-Altered Harveys And Lees And Harveys And Lees and, and ... "

Tommy, you're getting good at this.,, That actually makes more sense. And anyway you didn't say that this is what happened you're just saying it's an OPTION!!!

Bernie,

Perhaps and, yes, ... reportedly.

--Tommy

[Bernie Laverick]

And you wonder why the JFK conspiracy community is known for eating its own young...

Two of the most uninformed - on this subject - members of our little group taking turns employing tactics laid out in COINTELPRO for the disruption and derailing of a forum thread...

And rather than go read a fu%Kin book or do a bit of research... you trolls play the idiots and drag all of us down...

you don't like and don't support the H&L theories and conclusions... go play in your own sandbox... or take the time to learn the subject...

better yet - offer something of your own work for scrutiny and ridicule..

put yourselves out on a limb after 10 years of research and publish something on your own...

You don't because you're two of the worst type of ball-less wonders the internet offers... wannabe's without the intellect or honesty to be tested on what you've done...

only good enough to find the weakness in others rather than to commend their strengths, learn the subject and offer any level of honest debate

pathetic excuses for human beings

But if you, as a proponent of the theory, don't know the answers why should anyone take you seriously?

From the man who can't open a book... look at source research or make a phone call in order to offer anything resembling an educated opinion -

you wouldn't know right from wrong in the first place... and you speak of "serious"?

you're the first to criticize others... on a subject you're proud to have never learned..

It's an embarrassment to be of the same species as the two of you...

the more you post, the more you illustrate how completely worthless and pointless your contributions here are...

you ought to be ashamed of yourselves but instead you beam with insane stupidity and then wear it as a badge indicative of your honor.

this place has fallen to its depth because of the likes of the two of you...

and rather than feel any remorse...

all we can expect from the two of you is your never-ending mutual reach-arounds followed by the obligatory smokeless cigarette.

---

way to go little boys... way to go

No answers once again...just childish insults. What a mountainous intellect you are david.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Bernie Laverick

[Steven Gaal]

Two of the most uninformed - on this subject - members of our little group taking turns employing tactics laid out in COINTELPRO for the disruption and derailing of a forum thread...// DAVID JOSEPHS Below just on pg 8. Cant agree more David. (Gaal)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

mountainous intellect you are david.

spitting tantrums again

You really aren't very nice people are you?

because you muppets

Gaal's imbecilic nonsense

you obviously don't know what the real truth is

why should anyone take you seriously?

The National Enquirer! Do you read it often, Steven?

wacky logic.

Steven you do say some silly things.

don't even have a clue do you?

Edited March 17, 2014 by Steven Gaal

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[if] you don't like and don't support the H&L theories and conclusions... go play in your own sandbox...

[...]

[You] pathetic excuses for human beings

[bernie Laverick wrote:]

But if you, as a proponent of the theory, don't know the answers why should anyone take you seriously?

[...]

It's an embarrassment to be of the same species as the two of you...

the more you post, the more you illustrate how completely worthless and pointless your contributions here are...

you ought to be ashamed of yourselves but instead you beam with insane stupidity and then wear it as a badge indicative of your honor.

[...]

No answers once again...just childish insults. What a mountainous intellect you are, David.

Bernie,

Don't you realize that only people who like and support the H&L theory should be here, you know, so they can really debate the issues with each other?

--Tommy

PS Just remember, according to one new sub theory, the bad guys must have worked backwards on this grandiose Harvey and Lee Project to make it work as well as it did.

Just proves the old adage that Hindsight is 20-20.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Bernie Laverick]

Two of the most uninformed - on this subject - members of our little group taking turns employing tactics laid out in COINTELPRO for the disruption and derailing of a forum thread...// DAVID JOSEPHS Below just on pg 8. Cant agree more David. (Gaal)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

mountainous intellect you are david.

spitting tantrums again

You really aren't very nice people are you?

because you muppets

Gaal's imbecilic nonsense

you obviously don't know what the real truth is

why should anyone take you seriously?

The National Enquirer! Do you read it often, Steven?

wacky logic.

Steven you do say some silly things.

don't even have a clue do you?

And the point you are making is...? Telling someone who refuses to answer a question - or does so giving multiple contradictory answers on the hoof with NO reference to the book you are imploring me to read - that they don't have a clue is NOT an insult. It is an empiric fact!

Hey Steven guess what, DAVID JOSEPHS is the only one who has had to be moderated because of his foul abusive and bullying language - now deleted by Kathy - so what does that say? And now he's at it again.

I stand by my last sentence, you're not very nice people. Another empiric fact

Frankly I've had enough of dealing with misfits and oddballs on here. I'd gone nealry two years without posting, without having to deal with Carlier, with Cinque, with Rago and all the other social pariahs that infest this webspace. Compared to the H/L cult they were quite informed and friendly people. Do you even know how ridiculous you all sound?

Close it down John! Do it today! You lost the fight a few years ago;alll that remains are the cyber bullies with their foul mouthed insults and trumped up sense of their own importance.

[Thomas Graves]

Two of the most uninformed - on this subject - members of our little group taking turns employing tactics laid out in COINTELPRO for the disruption and derailing of a forum thread...// DAVID JOSEPHS Below just on pg 8. Cant agree more David. (Gaal)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

mountainous intellect you are david.

spitting tantrums again

You really aren't very nice people are you?

because you muppets

Gaal's imbecilic nonsense

you obviously don't know what the real truth is

why should anyone take you seriously?

The National Enquirer! Do you read it often, Steven?

wacky logic.

Steven you do say some silly things.

don't even have a clue do you?

And the point you are making is...? Telling someone who refuses to answer a question - or does so giving multiple contradictory answers on the hoof with NO reference to the book you are imploring me to read - that they don't have a clue is NOT an insult. It is an empiric fact!

Hey Steven guess what, DAVID JOSEPHS is the only one who has had to be moderated because of his foul abusive and bullying language - now deleted by Kathy - so what does that say? And now he's at it again.

I stand by my last sentence, you're not very nice people. Another empiric fact

Frankly I've had enough of dealing with misfits and oddballs on here. I'd gone nealry two years without posting, without having to deal with Carlier, with Cinque, with Rago and all the other social pariahs that infest this webspace. Compared to the H/L cult they were quite informed and friendly people. Do you even know how ridiculous you all sound?

Close it down John! Do it today! You lost the fight a few years ago;alll that remains are the cyber bullies with their foul mouthed insults and trumped up sense of their own importance.

Bernie,

In all fairness, there are some worthwhile, civil contributors on this forum.

James Richards, Larry Hancock, Bill Simpich, Bob Prudhomme, David Lifton, Greg Burnham, Sean Murphy (MIA), to name just a few.

--Tommy

Edited March 17, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Bernie Laverick]

Two of the most uninformed - on this subject - members of our little group taking turns employing tactics laid out in COINTELPRO for the disruption and derailing of a forum thread...// DAVID JOSEPHS Below just on pg 8. Cant agree more David. (Gaal)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

mountainous intellect you are david.

spitting tantrums again

You really aren't very nice people are you?

because you muppets

Gaal's imbecilic nonsense

you obviously don't know what the real truth is

why should anyone take you seriously?

The National Enquirer! Do you read it often, Steven?

wacky logic.

Steven you do say some silly things.

don't even have a clue do you?

And the point you are making is...? Telling someone who refuses to answer a question - or does so giving multiple contradictory answers on the hoof with NO reference to the book you are imploring me to read - that they don't have a clue is NOT an insult. It is an empiric fact!

Hey Steven guess what, DAVID JOSEPHS is the only one who has had to be moderated because of his foul abusive and bullying language - now deleted by Kathy - so what does that say? And now he's at it again.

I stand by my last sentence, you're not very nice people. Another empiric fact

Frankly I've had enough of dealing with misfits and oddballs on here. I'd gone nealry two years without posting, without having to deal with Carlier, with Cinque, with Rago and all the other social pariahs that infest this webspace. Compared to the H/L cult they were quite informed and friendly people. Do you even know how ridiculous you all sound?

Close it down John! Do it today! You lost the fight a few years ago;alll that remains are the cyber bullies with their foul mouthed insults and trumped up sense of their own importance.

Bernie,

In all fairness, there are some worthwhile contributors on this forum.

James Richards, Larry Hancock, Bill Simpich, Bob Prudhomme, David Lifton, Greg Burnham, Sean Murphy (MIA), to name just a few.

--Tommy

Fair point Tommy, I accept that...but boy do you have to wade through some sewerage first though... This place is finished as a forum to have open and honest debate. It just seems to be infested with those who have a preconceived view and determined to ram it down out throats at every opportunity.

It's the sheer dishonesty that gets me. You ask them one simple question and for four pages they point blank refuse to answer other than insults. Then realising how weak and pathetic that looks, five answers turn up at once - none of them from the H/L book btw - and all contradicting each other with outlandish suppositions made on the hoof. And yet from this they assume a haughty arrogance that gets more rancid with time. These self-appointed experts, like emperors on a throne, dispensing their wisdom on the one and only book that matters (except dawn of course who, staggeringly, still hasn't fully read it yet!) and presume a vomit inducing superiority.

They have convinced no one and they have not come up with one letter of their own to add legs to this theory. If I was Armstrong I would be furious!!! THEY have completely trashed his work. Had it not been for the utter stupidity of some of the supporting posts I very well may have carried on believing this theory and would have eventually bought the book. But they have done such an appalling job promoting it; made such a hash of interpreting the evidence; been far to quick to lash out with bully-boy insults; that most people see the whole thing as nothing more than their extreme paranoia. As I say, Armstrong is probably furious!

I refuse to engage with them any more. I'd rather eat my own feet!

[David Lifton]

Around 1990, I met someone who was a good friend of Eddie Voebel, and--consequently--also got to know Lee Oswald (in the same way that if I am "best friends" with Joe Smith, then I will likely get to become acquainted with some of Joe Smith's friends).

This person who was "best friends" with Voebel--call him "Vince Morton"--knew Lee Oswald (because he was "best friends" with Voebel) for about a year immediately after LHO moved to 126 Exchange Place in the fall of 1954.

So Vince Morton knew Oswald for both terms of that school year--i.e., fall of 1954, Spring of 1955. He was also a member of the CAP and his membership there overlapped with Oswald and Voebel.

"Vince Morton" is a fictitious name to protect him..?. his confiding in you remains very suspicious... I have the complete list of those who attended BJHS in 53-54 and 54-55...

Voebel does mention a name, but I will not post it as there appears to be some concern over it....

Not possible you got snowed David...?

What do you suppose DeBrueys was doing interviewing all of Oswald's classmates from 1953-54 and 1954-55 yet only asked about the 54-55 year...

and was able to write a report by Dec 2.... they gonna break the case wide open with these all important interviews after he's already dead?

As far as I know (and in my very strong opinion)

well understood David...

if you took a moment and read the FBI interviews of Oswald's classmates you'd see that not a single one is asked about 53-54, but only 9th grade - 54-55

While those who do recall 53-54 and are shown HARVEY's picture & don't recognize him...

In April 1955, LEE and MO move to Exchange...

HARVEY Oswald's records at Stripling JHS from Sept-Oct 1954 are given to the FBI...

that LEE HARVEY OSWALD had attended her English classes

from September, 1954 until June, 1955, And she explained

she was at a loss to explain that she had no recollection

of either the name OSWALD or identification of his facial.

characteristics, from representations of his photographs

XXXX stated that although school records indicated that she taught LEE HARVEY OSWALD, General Math during the school - -

term of 1954 that she could not recall OSWALD as a pupil in her class.

It appears you have much to learn about the subject matter here before you can offer "informed" opinions...

It's well accepted that we all have "strong" opinions.

David Josephs:

From your post:

"In April 1955, LEE and MO move to Exchange..." (by which you mean "126 Exchange Place", I presume).

But no, that statement is incorrect.

Marguerite moved to the 126 Exchange Place address in the fall of 1954, and I believe that to be true for these reasons:

(1) Morton told me he first met Lee when Lee had "just moved to Exchange Place" --and that was in the fall of 1954.

(2) Based on the testimony of Myrtle Evans--who said the Oswalds stayed at the St. Mary's address for six months--the move probably occurred in late summer or early fall of 1954.

(3) There is important "postmark evidence" establishing that Marguerite Oswald was living at 126 Exchange Place by 10/14/54. As you know, Marguerite periodically wrote letters to her eldest son, Jon Pic, who was in the U.S. Coast Guard, and stationed on Staten Island, New York. These letters were admitted into Warren Commission evidence when Pic testified, and became the "Pic Exhibits." They are published in Volume 21 of the Warren Commission's 26 Volumes. The last letter she wrote to Pic, when she was living at the St. Mary's address, is Pic Exhibit 23-A and bears the return address of 1454 St. Mary's and is postmarked June 14, 1954.

Here's the link to that exhibit (21 WCH 85):

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0055a.htm

The next letter she wrote to Pic is dated October 14, 1954, and the envelope, which clearly shows the postmark to be October 14, 1954, bears the return address of "126 Exchange Place." (See Pic Exhibit 24A on page 86 of volume 21).

Here is the link to that exhibit (24A, at 21 WCH 86):

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0055b.htm

Based on the above evidence--but especially the postmark evidence on a letter written to John Pic that was obviously written by Marguerite Oswald--I think it is evident that Marguerite was living at 126 Exchange Place by October 14, 1954.

Also please note: based on this evidence, I believe the Warren Report contains a significant error, in its narrative (apparently because the staff was unaware of the fall 1954 postmark evidence)--when it states (and I forget exactly where it does state this) that Lee Oswald (and his mother) didn't move to Exchange Place until 1955.

Just for the record: there is no way that I "got snowed" by the person I am calling Vince Morton. He was Eddie Voebel's best friend, played in music groups with him, knew his family, etc. The reason he is not in any Beauregard J.H.S. records is that he went to a private Catholic school in the area. That school was "Our Lady Star of the Sea." From there, he went to a Catholic high school.

But putting aside Vince Morton (and his recollections, as related to me in detail), I think the U.S. postmark evidence, which is on an envelope carrying a letter clearly written by Marguerite Oswald to her son John Pic, and which appears in the Warren Commission's published evidence, establishes without question where Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, lived on October 14, 1954, and that address was "126 Exchange Place," in the heart of the French Quarter in New Orleans.

As I say: I spent quality time with this witness, in April, 1998, visiting the area--and the various places he and Voebel hung out (the flower shop, the nearby cemetery, etc). After Hurrican Katrina, I lost track of him, and worried that he had perished in that storm. But that was not the case. In 2012, I learned that this witness had died in 2002, at age 61.

As far as I know, I am the only person who interviewed who him at any length, and I have a good film and audio record. He is an integral part of understanding who Lee Oswald was--between the fall of 1954 and into the summer months of 1955 (when Lee was in the ninth grade at Beauregard Junior High School)--which was a red-white-and blue "all American." There was no talk of communism, Marxism, or anything of the sort. And that, I believe, is one of the key values of this witness: he provides a first person account of what Lee Oswald was really like during a particularly important slice of time--from around October, 1954, and for the ensuing 10 months (approx). Of course, none of this should really surprise a close student of this case, because Lee Oswald joined the Civil Air Patrol in July, 1955, and was at that time--as his brother Robert testified--a perfectly normal and very patriotic young man.

DSL

3/17/14; 2:40 AM PDT

Los Angeles, California

Edited March 17, 2014 by David Lifton

[David Lifton]

Around 1990, I met someone who was a good friend of Eddie Voebel,...// Lifton

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How did you find out about Morton ? What/were did he work ??

NARA online just didnt find him ??

THANKS sg

Hi Steve,

I met this person through a fluke. After Best Evidence was published (January, 1981), I would from time to time get phone calls and/or letters from people who thought they had information. In this case, someone communicated with me and I took down the information he provided in a notebook. I first contacted him by telephone in September, 1990, and we had a pleasant talk. He was in the insurance business, and certainly not seeking any publicity. I listened to what he had to say, questioned him thoroughly, made notes, and life moved on. Some years later, in connection with making a trip from New York (where my late mother lived) to Los Angeles, I routed myself through New Orleans, and spent time there, visiting Oswald's old address on French Street, etc. At that time, I owned my own video camera (the technology then was "hi 8") and we arranged to meet and go through everything again--on audio, and then do a serious filmed interview.

It was some years after that--specifically, in July, 2002--in writing about Lee's youth, that I came across the anomaly in the Warren Report concerning when Lee and his mother moved to Exchange Place. That's when I was re-reading the Pic Exhibits and discovered the postmark on the letter that Marguerite Oswald wrote John Pic on October 14, 1954. That postmark was consistent with what the witness was telling me about when he knew Oswald, and that's also when I discovered that the sentence in the Warren Report that Lee and his mother moved to Exchange Place in 1955 was simply wrong.

DSL

3/17/14; 2:10 AM

Los Angeles, California