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Harvey and Lee


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Yesterday I had a conversation with a local researcher, known to all here as I was told by John Armstrong that he- Robert Morrow- was trashing John's work.

GIven that I am the one who got Robert started in this JFK assassination research with his first call to me abut five years ago, I called Robert to see if this was indeed the case.

Much to my surprise he informed me that he had read some of the book then threw it out, not believing a word. One of his reason's is that David Lifton and Judy Baker trash H &L. (Can't you think for yourself Robert?) .

Then he told me that much of the critical community disagrees with the work of Armstrong.

I will not post the names he named as I know this to be false, but I am posing the question here.

Is this true???

Thanks in advance.

Dawn

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Dawn, I've always felt John's research was excellent. I might disagree with some of his analysis and conclusions but as a resource the book is a very valuable - so valuable my copy remains on loan most of the time because its been hard to get copies at times...

-- Larry

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Larry.... (this is not a call out, just very interested in your take on the following)

only 8 hours after he is officially charged with JFK's death... Hoover has agents wake Kudlaty at 7am to retrieve Oswald's records from STRIPLING JR HIGH...

Mr Kudlaty cooperates by quickly reviewing the file... noticing that Oswald was in attendance long enough to have partial grades but not long enough to have finished a term...

On Sept 5, 1954, Oswald and MO are at 1454 St. Mary's in New Orleans LA attending Beauregard JHS - according to the WCR school records

Stripling JHS is across the street from 2220 Thomas Pl... the home MO retrieves furniture from in 1947.. as well as her residence on Nov 22, 1963.

I would just like to understand what explanation is possible for the FBI and Hoover's knowledge that LHO attended Stripling at all in 1954... and why it was so urgent, the morning after the accused is formally charged, that these records are at the top of Hoover's must get list.... followed that next week with interviews of the employees of Pfisterer's related to 1957.... both well before Robert's mention of Stripling or Palmer's mention of Pfisterer's...

I urge you to review CE1961... specifically as it transitions from CE1961 (US military record) to CE1962, the report of Allen Felde. Felde is one of a number of names the WCR and beyond ignored and buried and John found, followed and uncovered... and was with HARVEY when Lee was elsewhere.

As John and I often discussed.... the evidence offered by the WCR itself proves the existence of these two people.... in the early days following the assassination, what kind of fear or need to cover-up a secret of monumental importance pushed Hoover and then the other branches of government and national security to try and bury the evidence leading to this discovery...

So whether there was a huge operation to artificially create the dual history merged to one as a false flag... or the reality of their concurrent existence....

There remains occasion after occasion where the location and actions of one contradict the other.... when this understanding finally reaches the mainstream of Conspiracy realists, and they do the due diligence required to understand... maybe, like that falsification of the autopsy evidence... H&L will be accepted and built upon, rather than snickered at and dismissed..

1947 Sept 5 Lucille HUBBARD drives MO to a house near Stripling to pick up furnitiure 2220 THOMAS PLACE Oswald's school: Benbrook Common School Grade: 2nd (9/5/47) 1505 8th Ave Fort Worth 2nd Lily B Clayton Elementary (Ft Worth #19) Mrs Florence Murphy: LEE the leader of the 7/8yr olds; Phil Vinson recalls in 1963 article 1959 March 15 HARVEY in the "LIGHTER THAN AIR STATION" at Santa Ana while GRAF tells FBI Ely that the LHO he was with was NEVER at MCAF MACS-9 / MCAF Santa Ana CA MAG-3 El Toro, CA Allen D. Graf was transferred from North Carolina to El Toro, CA in the spring of 1959.21 He told FBI Agent Birl Wilson that he was Oswald's Platoon Sergeant for 6-8 months at Marine Air Control Group 3 (MAG 3) in El Toro. Graf remembers LEE as a VERY GOOD MARKSMAN with a score of 229, NOT 191.... and DISAGREES with the FBI report attributed to him.

MACS-9 Santa Ana and MAG-3 El Toro are not the same base but are down the road from one another

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David, I'm not going to go far down that road other than to say that I have long been on record that the FBI did have far more contact with Oswald than they ever acknowledged and subversive files on him that have been destroyed. They also knew that he had been impersonated and that it was more than likely multiple identifies were in play - I very much doubt that as of that weekend they had anything like a full handle on Oswald as an "identity". It was a mad scramble for information, and collecting data helps in several ways, including the fact that if you have it all you can at least try to "control" the story.

Anyone can become immersed in the disconnects and inconsistencies of the data, as you highlight. Just as anyone can become immersed in the physical evidence, the evidence and all the inconsistencies there. I played that game for many years before deciding that it had all been so managed and stage handled as to simply create uncertainty and doubt - which is why I took a different direction with SWHT and NEXUS.

I'll call and raise with another Oswald teaser though - my friend the former Marine intelligence officer at Atsuki spent a lot of time investigating one of the photographs from Oswald's filming. It shows a Marine fighter aircraft which at first seems to be no problem; it was taken from close range on a Marine flight line security area, bit more of a problem. But the real problem turned out to be that that particular aircraft could be traced and the photo had been taken on a flight line at a base where Oswald had never been, never visited, never even close....so who took the picture with Lee's camera. For that matter, does anyone have a record of all the photos on the films taken into evidence, where and when they were shot and how that matched Oswald's locations?

-- Larry

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David - I am not a serious researcher, just a citizen with a 50 year interest in JFK. I have read dozens of the best books, and will always feel the tragic loss Americans suffered during the 1960's. I have read about a third of Harvey and Lee. The trouble I have with the theory, and with some of your earnest threads on the subject, is that I simply can't piece together the information presented. I suspect the problem is more one of style than substance. I have an open mind and would really like to understand and be able to follow this deep cover operation if it is real. You have such intimate knowledge of this that you use a lot of shorthand when you write about it, and the author of the book is all over the map in his organization of the information. I'd like to be able to read something I can more easily comprehend before I form any conclusions. What would you suggest? I wonder if anyone else reading this agrees with me.

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Larry - appreciate and respect your position. The photo of Roscoe White in his possession listed as "A friend of Lee's in the Marine's" furthers this point.

Paul...

I completely understand and was in your position up until about 8 or so months ago when John and I became much more closely acquainted and I began this project to help me see the parallels.

if you or anyone would like, I took these last months and compiled an incident-by-incident, page-by-page analysis of H&L and the related Baylor materials in the format of a side by side spreadsheet table...

This is a snapshot of that work.... I have yet to see how I can upload a spreadsheet... which is truly the only way to see and work with the info... since it allows search, filter, etc...

OswaldSchoolyears1946-1948_zps59016127.j

PM me, or email me your email address and I would gladly send you a locked protected version...

I have reached a point at 12:55 on 11/22.... the facts about who Reid sees and who others see leads me to believe LEE was in DP and part of the deception.... I too do not necessarily agree with every sentence in the book, yet one needn't to see what the puzzle's picture looks like. I also have a few issues with JA's post assassination movements of LEE with relation to Tippit... yet I have not expanded on my understanding of that time frame - nor do I think there need be any contradiction in the H&L evidence prior to the assassination, with what is proposed for events that occur afterward... as presented in the book....

The spreadsheet is filled with direct quotes from the book and supporting evidence... I've downloaded scores of his Baylor notebooks and all the cd's images/docs.

This summary is imo the easiest way to digest the data and in turn find and review the supporting documentation. I express no personal opinions... I simply put the info in and if unsure, a question mark...

DJ

1957 9 12
HOW DOES HARVEY GET FROM MARINES to Antioch? Antoich College College Yellow Springs OH Antioch College
MACS1, MAG II, 1st MAW FMF Atsugi JAPAN When interviewed by the HSCA in 1978, Cyr produced his original set of Marine orders from the Commanding Officer, Marine Corps Casual Company, Department of the Pacific, Marine Barracks, United States Naval Station, Treasure Island, San Francisco, California. The list contained the names of seven Marines and their addresses, all of whom had served at Atsugi in Japan and knew Lee Oswald. They were: John E. Bordenkircher (Florida), Richard A. Bullock (Atlantic City, NJ), Russell Burton (Long Island, NY), James A. Groden (Tullahona, TN), Lance lves (Belfair, WA), Richard Korson (North Point, Ml), and Charles Benedict (Newton, MA).
NOTE: In July, 2003 JFK researcher Bill Kelley interviewed Richard A. Bullock, who 170 knew Lee Oswald in Japan. Bullock knew him as "Ozzie," and said he was 30-40 pounds heavier and 3-4 inches taller than the man accused of killing President Kennedy.Bullock said the Oswald he knew in Japan was not man accused of killing the President.
Edited by David Josephs
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David - I am not a serious researcher, just a citizen with a 50 year interest in JFK. I have read dozens of the best books, and will always feel the tragic loss Americans suffered during the 1960's. I have read about a third of Harvey and Lee. The trouble I have with the theory, and with some of your earnest threads on the subject, is that I simply can't piece together the information presented. I suspect the problem is more one of style than substance. I have an open mind and would really like to understand and be able to follow this deep cover operation if it is real. You have such intimate knowledge of this that you use a lot of shorthand when you write about it, and the author of the book is all over the map in his organization of the information. I'd like to be able to read something I can more easily comprehend before I form any conclusions. What would you suggest? I wonder if anyone else reading this agrees with me.

Paul In re-reading this a second time I have found that taking notes has helped me sort it out quite well.

Dawn

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THANK YOU David. This is wonderful. I would love to receive a copy of your work on this book. If I had the time I thought of doing something similar, alas, I barely have enough hours to get all that I do accomplished. Demanding job. And equally demanding avocations.

Dawn

dmeredith@austin.rr.com

Edited by Dawn Meredith
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David - I am not a serious researcher, just a citizen with a 50 year interest in JFK. I have read dozens of the best books, and will always feel the tragic loss Americans suffered during the 1960's. I have read about a third of Harvey and Lee. The trouble I have with the theory, and with some of your earnest threads on the subject, is that I simply can't piece together the information presented. I suspect the problem is more one of style than substance. I have an open mind and would really like to understand and be able to follow this deep cover operation if it is real. You have such intimate knowledge of this that you use a lot of shorthand when you write about it, and the author of the book is all over the map in his organization of the information. I'd like to be able to read something I can more easily comprehend before I form any conclusions. What would you suggest? I wonder if anyone else reading this agrees with me.

Paul:

I have had the same problem getting through the information... perhaps lack of patience, or the original organization of the facts. However, while not sounding very scientific, I nonetheless believe in the two-Oswald theory. I can't explain why, other than it just seems to fit with not only the evidence at hand, but what I perceive as the expertise of the people behind the plot. There are probably terms to describe this, but it resonates for me. There is this complex construct (called Oswald) who is military/Marines, defects/returns, and is used as a 'double-dangle' in God knows what spy games. A strategy and gambit right up James Angleton's alley... and for this reason, I have trouble separating (or absolving) Angleton from the plot to kill JFK. David's matrixed spreadsheet shoulds like a logical way to deconstruct what John Armstrong has assembled.

The hard part for me is separating the 'good' Harvey from the 'evil' Lee... did they know each other, was Lee setting up Harvey (unbeknownst to him), and what happened to Lee? I'd be interested in what all here think of the anecdote in James Douglas' book of Lee travelling on a CIA flight the afternoon of the assassination, as told by an Air Force officer (Robert Vinson).

Gene

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like mr. brancato, i am a citizen with a half century interest in the assassination. personally, i find armstrong's work compelling. my repsonse to those who denigrate his work is, using facts, come up with a better explanation of the material mr. amrstrong has presented.

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I'm inclined to agree with Martin Blank in that I feel the theory makes sense out of chaos, and I have no problem believing that Angleton could be so clever. The most difficult part for me is believing that Lee was born in Russia, and Harvey in the US, and that having such different physical descriptions growing up they somehow ended up close in size and weight and looking so much alike. Is plastic surgery the explanation for this?

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I'm inclined to agree with Martin Blank in that I feel the theory makes sense out of chaos, and I have no problem believing that Angleton could be so clever. The most difficult part for me is believing that Lee was born in Russia, and Harvey in the US, and that having such different physical descriptions growing up they somehow ended up close in size and weight and looking so much alike. Is plastic surgery the explanation for this?

Paul,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't "Lee" supposed to have been born in Hungary?

(Of course back then all Hungarians had to learn Russian, an Indo-European language quite different from their non-Indo-European Hungarian....)

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I'm inclined to agree with Martin Blank in that I feel the theory makes sense out of chaos, and I have no problem believing that Angleton could be so clever. The most difficult part for me is believing that Lee was born in Russia, and Harvey in the US, and that having such different physical descriptions growing up they somehow ended up close in size and weight and looking so much alike. Is plastic surgery the explanation for this?

Paul,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't "Lee" supposed to have been born in Hungary?

(Of course back then all Hungarians had to learn Russian, an Indo-European language quite different from their non-Indo-European Hungarian....)

--Tommy :sun

for what it's worth: Though a good Russian speaker Oswald rarely speaks Russian to anyone except Marina, who thought he was a local when they first met. She said he spoke with a Baltic accent.

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I'm inclined to agree with Martin Blank in that I feel the theory makes sense out of chaos, and I have no problem believing that Angleton could be so clever. The most difficult part for me is believing that Lee was born in Russia, and Harvey in the US, and that having such different physical descriptions growing up they somehow ended up close in size and weight and looking so much alike. Is plastic surgery the explanation for this?

Paul,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't "Lee" supposed to have been born in Hungary?

(Of course back then all Hungarians had to learn Russian, an Indo-European language quite different from their non-Indo-European Hungarian....)

--Tommy :sun

No Tommy, that was Harvey.

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