On the possibility of JFK's throat wound being an exit to a bullet entering the head

[Andric Perez]

I ask you to argue for or against Pat Speer's theory that JFK's throat wound is an exit wound possibly caused by a bullet penetrating the low occipital bone (EOP). Speer cites several premises to back up his argument, some of which are:

1. Well, first of all, since we've already concluded the bullet striking Kennedy at frame 313 most likely struck him on a tangent, we can venture that the bullet creating the small entrance wound on the back of his head struck him at some other time.

2. Since we’ve already decided that a bullet entering Kennedy’s back at the location of his back wound could not have continued on to bruise his lung and exit his throat without hitting his spine, the throat wound is unaccounted for. We can only wonder then, if the bullet heading down into the neck at a time other than 313 made its exit from Kennedy’s throat.

3. Since Kennedy reaches for his throat just after Connally appears to get injured, around frame Z-224, moreover, we should consider the possibility that a bullet traversed down Kennedy's neck at this time.

4. As Connally was sure a shot was fired before he was hit, and as he appears to be hit at Z-224, we can assume that Kennedy most probably received his back wound shortly before this time, most likely around frame 190, when the HSCA concluded a shot striking Kennedy was fired.

Read the entire piece here.

[Daniel Gallup]

Dr. Perry told Dr. Clark that a bullet entered Kennedy's neck from the front, because Clark comments to the New York Times a few days after the assassination that the bullet entered Kennedy's neck," ranged downward, and did not exit." That's a lot of information to be gleaned from a bullet that, according to this new theory, supposedly struck Kennedy's skull , failed to deform in the least, and left a small spherical wound which all who saw it noted it had the characteristics of an entry wound. There are other things wrong with the reasoning given above. 1. We don't know if a small bullet struck Kennedy in the back of the head near the EOP. Evidence of this entrance wound did not appear until after or around midnight when bones were brought into the morgue and represented as having come from Dallas. Until then the doctors made no determination as to the location of the entrance wound. But the bones brought in around midnight represented a great loss of bone at the top of the skull. No such wounding was observed at Parkland. So the origin of this lower entrance wound is suspect. 2. We don't know when Kennedy was shot in the back around the level of T3. If the wound is authentic, and there is reason to doubt this, then its timing still remains a mystery. Certainly Robert Groden puts that shot well after the throat shot based on his analysis of the Z-film. 3. I have never thought Kennedy reaches for his throat after Connally was injured. That's a new one for me. But then, I do not place any confidence in the extant film, any more than I place confidence in the extant autopsy sitting in the National Archives. Not after Horne's Magnum Opus.

[Pat Speer]

Dr. Perry told Dr. Clark that a bullet entered Kennedy's neck from the front, because Clark comments to the New York Times a few days after the assassination that the bullet entered Kennedy's neck," ranged downward, and did not exit." That's a lot of information to be gleaned from a bullet that, according to this new theory, supposedly struck Kennedy's skull , failed to deform in the least, and left a small spherical wound which all who saw it noted it had the characteristics of an entry wound. There are other things wrong with the reasoning given above. 1. We don't know if a small bullet struck Kennedy in the back of the head near the EOP. Evidence of this entrance wound did not appear until after or around midnight when bones were brought into the morgue and represented as having come from Dallas. Until then the doctors made no determination as to the location of the entrance wound. But the bones brought in around midnight represented a great loss of bone at the top of the skull. No such wounding was observed at Parkland. So the origin of this lower entrance wound is suspect. 2. We don't know when Kennedy was shot in the back around the level of T3. If the wound is authentic, and there is reason to doubt this, then its timing still remains a mystery. Certainly Robert Groden puts that shot well after the throat shot based on his analysis of the Z-film. 3. I have never thought Kennedy reaches for his throat after Connally was injured. That's a new one for me. But then, I do not place any confidence in the extant film, any more than I place confidence in the extant autopsy sitting in the National Archives. Not after Horne's Magnum Opus.

The small entrance wound by the EOP was, according to the doctors, noted early in the autopsy. It was noted by Humes, Boswell, Finck, Stringer, and Kellerman, and perhaps a few others. A large wound presumably of exit was also noted at this time. It wasn't till much later, with the arrival of the late arriving fragments, that they found beveling and a small amount of lead on one of these fragments. This told them, then, that the large defect was an exit.

A close look at the Harper fragment, in my opinion, suggests this wound was both an entrance and an exit.

But the autopsy doctors were never shown the Harper fragment. Perhaps that's why.

[Daniel Gallup]

Pat, your are right, the official record indicates an entrance wound was noted early. But I would argue the official record isn't worth the paper it's printed. Both in Best Evidence and In the Eye of History, James Curtis Jenkins gives a very different picture of discussions of the head wounding. See page 611 BE, and 73, ITEOH. Jenkins was interviewed by LIfton in 1979, and is quite specific that no conclusions were drawn that night. Jenkins is one of those important pieces of the puzzle that does not fit with the official record. We must also question the origin of the late arriving fragments. Due to the condition of the body as stated by the personnel from Parkland, I would say the fragments were torn from Kennedy's head in the process of removing the brain before the official autopsy. (Jenkins also claims the brain was removed prior to autopsy). That may be why, when the shipping casket and body bag was opened, O'Connor said there were no brains in the cranial vault.

[Pat Speer]

Pat, your are right, the official record indicates an entrance wound was noted early. But I would argue the official record isn't worth the paper it's printed. Both in Best Evidence and In the Eye of History, James Curtis Jenkins gives a very different picture of discussions of the head wounding. See page 611 BE, and 73, ITEOH. Jenkins was interviewed by LIfton in 1979, and is quite specific that no conclusions were drawn that night. Jenkins is one of those important pieces of the puzzle that does not fit with the official record. We must also question the origin of the late arriving fragments. Due to the condition of the body as stated by the personnel from Parkland, I would say the fragments were torn from Kennedy's head in the process of removing the brain before the official autopsy. (Jenkins also claims the brain was removed prior to autopsy). That may be why, when the shipping casket and body bag was opened, O'Connor said there were no brains in the cranial vault.

I spent a couple of hours listening to Jenkins talk this past November 22, and talked with him a bit myself, and your recollections of his recollections are not quite accurate, IMO. Jenkins said he heard Finck mention a possible entrance at the supposed exit (above the ear) and saw some discoloration of the bone in this location (suggesting an entrance). He took from this that there was an entrance in this location, which led him to be confused when the doctors concluded the bullet entered by the EOP. He never saw this entrance by the EOP, but did note that the skull was intact in that location, and that there was no blow-out wound low on the back of the skull, as claimed by so many CTs.

As far as the brain, Jenkins was ADAMANT that his brother-in-law O'Connor was wrong, and that the brain was in the skull at the beginning of the autopsy. He said he heard Humes say something about the brain coming off in his hands when he peeled back the scalp and started to remove the brain, which led him (Jenkins) to wonder if the brain hadn't somehow been removed before the autopsy and placed back in the skull. (He had no explanation how or why this would have been done.) Still, he was clear that the brain was in the skull, and that he personally infused it with formalin.

[Daniel Gallup]

Pat, it my recollection that Jenkins said the brain stem was neatly severed in two places, which led him to believe the brain had been removed prior to autopsy. I can't recall where I read this any longer. If he said this, and the brain had been removed, them OConnor and Jenkins are talking about two different events. Jenkins has no specific recollection of a shipping casket either.

[Pat Speer]

Pat, it my recollection that Jenkins said the brain stem was neatly severed in two places, which led him to believe the brain had been removed prior to autopsy. I can't recall where I read this any longer. If he said this, and the brain had been removed, them OConnor and Jenkins are talking about two different events. Jenkins has no specific recollection of a shipping casket either.

You are correct about Jenkins. Beyond his recollection of Humes saying something about the brain basically falling out in his hands, Jenkins also said that when he infused the brain he noticed that the brain stem had two cuts on it. He wasn't sure of the relevance, but thought this might indicate it had been cut before Humes cut it.

I suspect Jenkins' observation was accurate, and that the brain stem was damaged prior to the autopsy... I've read of herniated brain stems, where the impact of a bullet has pushed the brain stem through the foramen magnum and out of the skull. It seems possible, then, that the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's skull pushed the brain downward to such an extent that the brain stem got cut by the foramen magnum...

Edited March 31, 2014 by Pat Speer

[Dawn Meredith]

Pat, it my recollection that Jenkins said the brain stem was neatly severed in two places, which led him to believe the brain had been removed prior to autopsy. I can't recall where I read this any longer. If he said this, and the brain had been removed, them OConnor and Jenkins are talking about two different events. Jenkins has no specific recollection of a shipping casket either.

You are correct about Jenkins. Beyond his recollection of Humes saying something about the brain basically falling out in his hands, Jenkins also said that when he infused the brain he noticed that the brain stem had two cuts on it. He wasn't sure of the relevance, but thought this might indicate it had been cut before Humes cut it.

I suspect Jenkins' observation was accurate, and that the brain stem was damaged prior to the autopsy... I've read of herniated brain stems, where the impact of a bullet has pushed the brain stem through the foramen magnum and out of the skull. It seems possible, then, that the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's skull pushed the brain downward to such an extent that the brain stem got cut by the foramen magnum...

Pat I am "not permitted" to use the PM function here. Please send me a test email at dmeredith@austin.rr.com. I am leaving now for court and will be gone all day.

Dawn

[David Andrews]

I've read of herniated brain stems, where the impact of a bullet has pushed the brain stem through the foramen magnum and out of the skull. It seems possible, then, that the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's skull pushed the brain downward to such an extent that the brain stem got cut by the foramen magnum...

If this had actually occurred, how was it even possible that JFK had minimal vital signs and respiration in the Parkland ER?

[Pat Speer]

I've read of herniated brain stems, where the impact of a bullet has pushed the brain stem through the foramen magnum and out of the skull. It seems possible, then, that the impact of the bullet on Kennedy's skull pushed the brain downward to such an extent that the brain stem got cut by the foramen magnum...

If this had actually occurred, how was it even possible that JFK had minimal vital signs and respiration in the Parkland ER?

Based on Jenkins' statements, there were two cuts, one on each side. It seems possible, then, that an incomplete cut had damaged one side of the brain stem, and that Humes completed the cut with ease. He thereby made a remark about how easy this was. Which Jenkins recalled more or less correctly...

This is just speculation on my part, of course. If you have information that even a partial cut of the brain stem will put an immediate stop to all vital signs, I'll be forced to reconsider.

[Ken Davies]

Is there a doctor in the house? (id est forum?)

[Dawn Meredith]

Pat: New computer with windows 7 set up last night by Erick while I was asleep. Can't reply to any email and no way to import email prior to last night to this computer. I hate Microsoft .

let's try this again. dmeredith@Austin.rr.com

Dawn