The Ultimate USAEC secrets per the JFK hit.

[Paul Trejo]

That's some peculiar stuff Steven, but very interesting.

Paul - stop misrepresenting what Hancock said. And please stop saying that Simpich 'proved' anything.

Well, people who want nothing more than to blame the CIA for the murder of JFK don't need much hard evidence, obviously -- and even a school of business at a top University is grist for their mill.

So, to clear up the implications of what Steve said -- yes, I do work for a top University, on staff as a computer specialist (I specialize in SQL database server administration -- something I've been involved with professionally for about 35 years or so) -- and no, I don't work for the CIA, or have any a part or role in the CIA at all.

If other people work for the CIA -- anywhere in the world -- that's their business, and not mine, and I wish them well. No, I don't hate the CIA, and yes, I do admit that nobody's perfect. My own business is SQL server administration (both Microsoft SQL and Oracle SQL).

Sometimes it seems to me that people who suspect the official CIA high-command of murdering JFK can be self-righteous and arrogant, and have no compunction against insulting somebody else who doesn't share their suspicions.

I myself don't find enough evidence -- not even from Jim Garrison, Joan Mellen, Larry Hancock or Bill Simpich (whom I otherwise admire) -- to warrant such a conclusion.

I repeat -- the characters that they uncovered (brilliantly) were almost all MERCENARIES and not CIA Officers at all!

I repeat -- the characters that they uncovered REALLY DID MURDER JFK; I believe that. Many of these wackos did PRETEND to be CIA Officers. They were liars as well as murderers.

Truly pathetic characters. In this number I include those who confessed: Frank Sturgis, Johnny Roselli, John Martino, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, Thomas Edward Beckham, Gerry Patrick Hemming, David Morales and Howard Hunt.

I would also include those who partially confessed: Lee Harvey Oswald, Loran Hall and Joseph Milteer.

I would also include those who never confessed but whose close association with those named above is documented beyond all doubt: Clay Shaw, Guy Banister, Ex-General Edwin Walker, and Guy Gabaldon.

There are, of course, more. The theme above is that only TWO in that number were CIA Officers.

So, get over it, you CIA-bashers. Most of the characters involved in the plot to kill JFK -- those named by top JFK researchers -- were clearly NOT official, salaried employees of the CIA.

It is only GUESSING to propose that these lower-level knuckleheads were obedient servants of the two CIA rogues, and obeyed their orders faithfully. What a joke.

Finally, Paul B., Larry Hancock said that he DISBELIEVED that Angleton participated in the JFK murder. Same with Edward Lansdale. This isn't misrepresenting Larry -- he surprised me when he said this on this very FORUM, and that's the truth.

Also, it's my humble and honest opinion that Bill Simpich PROVED that the CIA was split in two on the topic of the *impersonation* of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City (as shown by their top-level mole-hunt). That's my opinion, and I believe it's correct, and I'll keep on saying it as long as I like -- it's a free country.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 6, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

That's some peculiar stuff Steven, but very interesting.

Paul - stop misrepresenting what Hancock said. And please stop saying that Simpich 'proved' anything.

[...]

The characters that they [Garrison, Mellen, Hancock, and Simpich] uncovered (brilliantly) were almost all MERCENARIES and not CIA Officers at all!

The characters that they uncovered REALLY DID MURDER JFK; I believe that. Many of these wackos did PRETEND to be CIA Officers. They were liars as well as murderers.

Truly pathetic characters. In this number I include those who confessed: Frank Sturgis, Johnny Roselli, John Martino, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, Thomas Edward Beckham, Gerry Patrick Hemming, David Morales and Howard Hunt.

I would also include those who partially confessed: Lee Harvey Oswald, Loran Hall and Joseph Milteer.

I would also include those who never confessed but whose close association with those named above is documented beyond all doubt: Clay Shaw, Guy Banister, Ex-General Edwin Walker, and Guy Gabaldon.

[...]

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Pray tell, how did Lee Harvey Oswald "partially confess" to the assassination of JFK?

--Tommy

Edited September 6, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Pray tell, how did Lee Harvey Oswald "partially confess" to the assassination of JFK?

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, I thought that was fairly well known -- while under arrest in Dallas on 11/23/1963, and while the DPD was hurrying Lee Harvey Oswald into another private room, he shouted out to the press, I'M JUST A PATSY!

Now, let's look at this word, "patsy." It's meaning in the context of a murder case is that the "patsy" belongs to a group of people which is guilty of the crime, but the "patsy" has been framed or set-up to take the blame for the crime.

Near the end of his life, Lee Harvey Oswald SUDDENLY REALIZED that his friends and comrades-in-arms had BETRAYED him, and had lied to him for months.

These "friends" were the guilty parties of the murder of JFK, and these "friends" had made Lee Harvey Oswald into their PATSY.

Notice that the DPD hurried Lee Oswald out of the hallway when he shouted out these words. In my opinion (and in agreement with New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison) some elements of the DPD were also members of this plot.

However, Lee Harvey Oswald did not know the DPD members of the plot. He only knew the New Orleans members of the plot (to the best of my knowledge) including Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, Fred Crisman, Thomas Edward Beckham, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and Gerry Patrick Hemming.

All these people were persons of interest to Jim Garrison. Yet Jim Garrison missed some -- some of the most important ones, namely, the ones in Dallas. These Dallas plotters of the JFK murder were unknown even to Lee Harvey Oswald!

Yet not only did these "friends" of Lee Harvey Oswald deceive Oswald into acting like an FPCC officer, and becoming the PATSY of the JFK murder -- they also broke ranks later, as some of them confessed openly (e.g. Jack S. Martin, David Ferrie, Loran Hall, Gerry Patrick Hemming and Thomas Edward Beckham).

If given more time, Lee Harvey Oswald would have named THE SAME PEOPLE THAT JIM GARRISON NAMED. That is why the plotters in Dallas had to ensure that Oswald did not live to testify.

But to a tiny degree Oswald did testify, when he shouted out, I'M ONLY A PATSY!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

That is not a confession, even in part. It might at best indicate he knew that as a self professed Communist he made a very convenient scapegoat. As you know, there is no hard evidence of the kind that would stand up in court that the rifle he supposedly purchased and owned (don't like this evidence much either) was used to kill JFK or even shoot at him. There is no evidence he shot a rifle that day.

[Paul Trejo]

That is not a confession, even in part. It might at best indicate he knew that as a self professed Communist he made a very convenient scapegoat. As you know, there is no hard evidence of the kind that would stand up in court that the rifle he supposedly purchased and owned (don't like this evidence much either) was used to kill JFK or even shoot at him. There is no evidence he shot a rifle that day.

On the contrary, Paul B., it's a PARTIAL CONFESSION on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald.

He was confessing that he was part of a plot -- he unwittingly played the part of the PATSY.

He was confessing that he KNEW the murderers of JFK.

That's a lot. Too bad he didn't live to tell us more.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Even if you are correct, it does not necessarily mean he was part of a plot. As you know files were found at the Paine's house that were described as databases of local Cubans, files supposedly belonging to Oswald which conveniently disappeared. It was therefore never clear what the files contained. In any case, if he was not a shooter then how was he a part of the plot? If he was, why that rifle, and why no evidence of his having fired a rifle that day? You know that the evidence of his movements after the shooting as laid out by the WC make no sense other than showing that he was not on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. You have stated that you believe Hemming got him to bring his gun to work. Are you thinking that he knew someone was going to use his gun to shoot the president? Just how do you imagine he was part of the plot? You have fleshed out your version of the ground crew. What was Oswald's part in that ground crew? Do you think he fired at Walker and JFK? If he didn't shoot at Walker, why did Walker claim that he did? Your version of Oswald, which you have stated to me and often on this board, is that he was involved in a right wing plot to kill JFK. If so, why try to shoot Walker? Too may inconsistencies.

[Thomas Graves]

That is not a confession, even in part. It might at best indicate he knew that as a self professed Communist he made a very convenient scapegoat. As you know, there is no hard evidence of the kind that would stand up in court that the rifle he supposedly purchased and owned (don't like this evidence much either) was used to kill JFK or even shoot at him. There is no evidence he shot a rifle that day.

On the contrary, Paul B., it's a PARTIAL CONFESSION on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald.

He was confessing that he was part of a plot -- he unwittingly played the part of the PATSY.

He was confessing that he KNEW the murderers of JFK.

That's a lot. Too bad he didn't live to tell us more.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Although a person can participate in a counter-intelligence or "sting" operation by pretending to let others set them up as a patsy, when Oswald said "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in Russia. I'm just a patsy!", he was not necessarily admitting that he knew the conspirators or that he even suspected, before the assassination, that was being "set up." After all, if the latter were the case, wouldn't Oswald have done something to try to prevent it? I suppose it is possible that he went to Mexico City in an attempt to "get the hell out of Dodge" before 11/22/63, and tried to get the Russians to pay his way in exchange for information he could give them about the planned assassination, but it seems equally possible that Oswald came to the realization that he was "a patsy" only because he "put 2 plus 2 together" after he was arrested and realized that, given his past, he was the perfect patsy, but still may not have known the details of how he'd been set up or by whom.

--Tommy

Edited September 7, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Although a person can pretend to let others set them up as a patsy as part of a "sting" operation, when Oswald said "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in Russia. I'm just a patsy!", he was not necessarily admitting that he knew the conspirators.

It seems equally possible that he came to the general realization he was a "patsy" only as the first sentence was coming out of his mouth. It's possible that he put 2 plus 2 together and realized that he was the perfect patsy for what had just gone down in Dallas, but didn't know how he'd been set up or by whom.

--Tommy

Yes, Tommy, that is one possible interpretation of Oswald's statement.

The reason I like my interpretation is because of Oswald's word, PATSY. It strongly suggests a conspiracy.

I break sharply with the Warren Commission conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald as a Lone Shooter "without any accomplices who are still at large." Lee Harvey Oswald had a wide circle of contacts, and Jim Garrison uncovered a sordid cast of charactrers in New Orleans with whom Oswald moved for months, earlier in 1963.

You suppose that the context of Oswald's exclamation, "I'm a Patsy!" was simply the sentence which went before it. Yet the exact connection of the two phrases remains unclear -- maybe Oswald thought of some people who would frame him, or maybe he didn't.

Yet the context should also include Lee Oswald's political connections -- and as Jim Garrison showed, there were MANY of them, and mostly on the extreme right-wing in New Orleans.

So, Tommy -- my interpretation of the phrase, "I'm a Patsy!" includes the context of the findings of Jim Garrison -- while your interpretation doesn't.

So I don't say that our interpretations are "equally possible" as you put it, because your interpretation is more abstract, and leaves out more information. If we include the context of the summer of 1963 in New Orleans in that statement, a clearer picture will appear, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

That is not a confession, even in part. It might at best indicate he knew that as a self professed Communist he made a very convenient scapegoat. As you know, there is no hard evidence of the kind that would stand up in court that the rifle he supposedly purchased and owned (don't like this evidence much either) was used to kill JFK or even shoot at him. There is no evidence he shot a rifle that day.

On the contrary, Paul B., it's a PARTIAL CONFESSION on the part of Lee Harvey Oswald.

He was confessing that he was part of a plot -- he unwittingly played the part of the PATSY.

He was confessing that he KNEW the murderers of JFK.

That's a lot. Too bad he didn't live to tell us more.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Although a person can participate in a counter-intelligence or "sting" operation by pretending to let others set them up as a patsy, when Oswald said "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in Russia. I'm just a patsy!", he was not necessarily admitting that he knew the conspirators or that he even suspected, before the assassination, that was being "set up."

After all, if the latter were the case, wouldn't Oswald have done something to try to prevent it?

I suppose it is possible that he went to Mexico City in late September in an attempt to "get the hell out of Dodge" before 11/22/63, and tried to get the Russians to pay his (and his wife's and children's) way to Russia (via Cuba) in exchange for information he could give them about the planned assassination, but it seems equally possible that Oswald came to the realization that he was "a patsy" only because he "put 2 plus 2 together" after he was arrested and realized that, given his past, he was the perfect patsy, but still may not have known the details of how he'd been set up or by whom.

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited September 7, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Even if you are correct, it does not necessarily mean he was part of a plot. As you know files were found at the Paine's house that were described as databases of local Cubans, files supposedly belonging to Oswald which conveniently disappeared. It was therefore never clear what the files contained.

In any case, if he was not a shooter then how was he a part of the plot? If he was, why that rifle, and why no evidence of his having fired a rifle that day?

You know that the evidence of his movements after the shooting as laid out by the WC make no sense other than showing that he was not on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination.

You have stated that you believe Hemming got him to bring his gun to work. Are you thinking that he knew someone was going to use his gun to shoot the president? Just how do you imagine he was part of the plot?

You have fleshed out your version of the ground crew. What was Oswald's part in that ground crew?

Do you think he fired at Walker and JFK? If he didn't shoot at Walker, why did Walker claim that he did? Your version of Oswald, which you have stated to me and often on this board, is that he was involved in a right wing plot to kill JFK. If so, why try to shoot Walker?

Too may inconsistencies.

Once again, Paul B., these are all good questions. They move me to clarify my case more and more. I'll try to explain:

(1) The files or "index cards" found in the Paine garage about local Cubans most likely belonged to Lee Oswald, and he probably got those files from Guy Banister, who kept such files by the hundreds. They were catalogued by the FBI, and "disappeared," which suggests to me that they were classified Top Secret -- and that is probably because they point to Guy Banister, while the FBI had orders from J. Edgar Hoover to DENY that Lee Oswald had any accomplices. So, in the year 2017 those "index cards" will probably show up.

(2) I say that Lee Oswald was not a shooter, but that he was part of the plot. Here's how: Oswald was part of the plot because he knew his framers and he trusted them. He thought he was involved in a SEPARATE plot, namely, a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro. He probably thought he was part of Operation Mongoose -- because Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier and many rightist mercenaries in New Orleans were clearly involved in Operation Mongoose to assassinate Fidel Castro.

Now, Paul B., your question is this -- if Oswald thought he was part of a DIFFERENT plot, then how could he be TRULY involved in a plot to kill JFK? The answer is that he was an UNWITTING part of the plot. He was the PATSY. Now the Patsy never knows he's the Patsy, otherwise he'd run away. So, his "friends" coaxed him to do various illegal acts -- and they lied to him and gave him different reasons for doing those acts -- BUT OSWALD STILL DID THOSE ACTS. Oswald knew his framers. Oswald cooperated with them all the way up to 11/22/1963.

(3) You also ask, why did the JFK murderers have Oswald's rifle, and why did Oswald show no evidence of his having fired a rifle that day? My explanation is that it was precisely BECAUSE Lee Oswald trusted his framers that he himself put his own rifle into their hands. Gerry Patrick Hemming confessed to A.J. Weberman that he himself called Lee Oswald on 11/21/1963 from Miami (as I recall) and offered Lee Oswald double the market price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if only he would bring it to the TSBD building the next morning, and stash it up on the sixth floor. Lee Oswald thought he was selling his rifle to some anonymous criminal, most likely -- but hey, the price was right.

So, Lee Oswald was PART of the plot -- but he played the part of the PATSY. He thought his framers were his "friends." That's the first issue. But wait, there's more.

Clearly, Lee Oswald shot no rifle that day. He probably didn't even THINK about murdering JFK, although, like most rightists will tell you, and as Harry Dean has honestly admitted since 1965, the American right-wing in 1963 talked openly about murdering JFK every single day! He thought of this as normal, and as merely "letting off steam." So, Lee Oswald heard this talk from his associates, former Marines who were now mercenaries, and so forth. Even George De Mohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt said that Lee Oswald himself blamed JFK for failing to help the Cuban Exiles at the Bay of Pigs. It was a common viewpoint for any US Marine from 1961 through 1963.

(4) So, Hemming got Oswald to bring his rifle to the TSBD building on 11/22/1963. I do NOT believe that Lee Oswald suspected that the rifle would be used to murder JFK. If he ever suspected that, he would NEVER have brought the rifle to work -- because he would have KNOWN it was a PATSY act. Since he brought it to work, he must have believed it was for some other petty crime. Probably Gerry Patrick Hemming offered Lee Oswald some other lie about the rifle, and as I say, Lee Oswald bought the lie and played along.

So, you ask, Paul B., how could I say that Lee Oswald was part of the plot to kill JFK given the definition of the PATSY, that the PATSY never knows that he's the PATSY! Doesn't the Patsy have plausible denial of his own involvement? Shouldn't we treat a Patsy as an "innocent bystander?"

I don't know what the courts would have decided if they learned the whole truth back in 1963 or 1964. But a Patsy can still be considered a part of the plot at some level -- because Lee Oswald brought his rifle to the party. Also, Lee Oswald ran from the scene of the crime, and evidently went to his rooming house to get his pistol. So, Lee Oswald knew that SOMETHING was up, but he wasn't sure what it was yet (as the Patsy is always the last to know).

Yet because Oswald knew that SOMETHING was up on the morning that JFK was murdered, he now had a LEGAL obligation to rush to the Police to tell them everything he knew. That was his duty as an American citizen. JFK was murdered, and Oswald had information about it. In his failure to rush his information to the Dallas Police (and take his chances) Lee Harvey Oswald made himself an "accessory after the fact." So now, that's a double role in the JFK murder.

(5) So, Paul B., I'm saying that Lee Oswald was only a part of the ground-crew to this extext -- he was the PATSY. That was his role in the ground-crew of the JFK murder. That was his part in the JFK murder. HOWEVER, after the crime occurred, Lee Oswald dug himself in deeper by refusing to come forward with his knowledge and information (which would have been the same information that Jim Garrison revealed in 1968).

(6) Finally, I do believe Lee Oswald fired at General Walker (because he was "hypnotized" by Volkmar Schmidt to do so). I disbelieve that Lee Oswald fired at JFK.

Further, Edwin Walker claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald fired at him on 10 April 1963 because he got information about it from a high source (although Walker kept changing his description of his source) on the very week of that shooting. This makes sense based on George De Mohrenshildt's confession that he helped Volkmar Schmidt bring Lee Oswald to hate General Walker. George DM and Lee Oswald would call him, "General Fokker" and laugh.

George De Mohrenshildt was a major player in the shooting at General Walker. So was Volkmar Schmidt, but so were ALL of the engineers at the February 1963 party in Dallas who witnessed the "hypnosis" session that took HOURS. It was soon after that party that Oswald would buy his rifle through mail-order, and demand that Marina take ONE photograph of him with his weapons, and make several fake copies of that one photograph at his place of employment (Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall) and give one copy to George De Mohrenschildt (signed on the back) and one copy to Roscoe White (former fellow Marine now in the DPD) and send one copy to The Militant newspaper.

(7) In conclusion, I don't believe that Lee Harvey Oswald would ever have shot JFK on his own. Ever. But he befriended dozens of people on the right-wing who hated JFK and talked about killing JFK every day. We know who these people were, since Jim Garrison did all the leg work back in 1966-1968.

But if Oswald was a rightist, then why try to kill General Walker? We don't have any writings from Oswald that showed any great hatred for Walker. So, I rely on the WAFFLING by George De Mohrenshildt on this topic, as well as the STRAIGHT TALK from Volkmar Schmidt on this topic. Oswald was "convinced" by the liberals in Dallas to try to kill Walker.

It seems to me that the one who really hated Ex-General Edwin Walker the most was George De Mohrenshildt. Now, Lee Oswald had few friends in Dallas, but he really liked George De Mohrenshildt -- a lot. I think that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to kill Ex-General Edwin Walker because he thought it would please George De Mohrenschildt. I believe De Mohrenschildt knew this at the time, and it haunted him all during his work in Haiti, and eventually caused him to commit suicide.

So, Paul B., I trust this unravels many inconsistencies that you've encountered in my theory up to this point.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

In any case, if [Oswald] was not a shooter then how was he a part of the plot? If he was [a shooter], why that rifle, and why no evidence of his having fired a rifle that day? ... You have stated that you believe Hemming got him to bring his gun to work. Are you thinking that he knew someone was going to use his gun to shoot the president? Just how do you imagine he was part of the plot?

[...]

Paul,

One would think that the newspaper-reading Oswald knew that Kennedy was coming to Dallas on 11/22/63 and would be passing right by the seven-story TSBD. Given that premise, I'm absolutely shocked that the penurious Oswald didn't turn down Hemming's offer and insist that he wouldn't accept less than triple what he'd paid for the rifle to smuggle that sucker into the building that morning and hide it in a prearranged place on the sixth floor.

LOL

--Tommy

Edited September 7, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

One would think that the newspaper-reading Oswald knew that Kennedy was coming to Dallas on 11/22/63 and would be passing right by the seven-story TSBD. Given that premise, I'm absolutely shocked that the penurious Oswald didn't turn down Hemming's offer and insist that he wouldn't accept less than triple what he'd paid for the rifle to smuggle that sucker into the building that morning and hide it in a prearranged place on the sixth floor.

LOL

--Tommy

I think this speaks to the issue of trust, Tommy.

It seems to me that Lee Oswald could only become the PATSY of a plot to murder JFK if he trusted his framers fully, and truly believed that they were his friends, and that they were all going for the same gold.

It seems reasonable to me that Lee Oswald believed he was part of Operation Mongoose, and that all of his accomplices were actually plotting to murder Fidel Castro.

Remember that Lee Oswald let himself be framed as the officer of the New Orleans FPCC (a chapter which had only one member, Oswald himself) and then take that publicity with him to Mexico City and demand (foolishly) an Instant Visa into Cuba based on his alleged high-status in the FPCC. That took months to prepare. Why did Lee Oswald do it? Because, IMHO, he really and truly believed his framers when they told him that officers in the FPCC get "instant passage" in to Cuba.

There's really no other satisfactory explanation for Lee Oswald making a complete fool of himself in Mexico City that day. We must conclude that Lee Oswald BELIEVED HIS FRAMERS. They were probably laughing their heads off at the time.

Lee Oswald NEVER suspected that he was the Patsy for the JFK murder. It NEVER occurred to him until AFTER THE FACT.

Then it was too late.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

One would think that the newspaper-reading Oswald knew that Kennedy was coming to Dallas on 11/22/63 and would be passing right by the seven-story TSBD. Given that premise, I'm absolutely shocked that the penurious Oswald didn't turn down Hemming's offer and insist that he wouldn't accept less than triple what he'd paid for the rifle to smuggle that sucker into the building that morning and hide it in a prearranged place on the sixth floor.

LOL

--Tommy

I think this speaks to the issue of trust, Tommy.

It seems to me that Lee Oswald could only become the PATSY of a plot to murder JFK if he trusted his framers fully, and truly believed that they were his friends, and that they were all going for the same gold.

It seems reasonable to me that Lee Oswald believed he was part of Operation Mongoose, and that all of his accomplices were actually plotting to murder Fidel Castro.

Remember that Lee Oswald let himself be framed as the officer of the New Orleans FPCC (a chapter which had only one member, Oswald himself) and then take that publicity with him to Mexico City and demand (foolishly) an Instant Visa into Cuba based on his alleged high-status in the FPCC. That took months to prepare. Why did Lee Oswald do it? Because, IMHO, he really and truly believed his framers when they told him that officers in the FPCC get "instant passage" in to Cuba.

There's really no other satisfactory explanation for Lee Oswald making a complete fool of himself in Mexico City that day. We must conclude that Lee Oswald BELIEVED HIS FRAMERS. They were probably laughing their heads off at the time.

Lee Oswald NEVER suspected that he was the Patsy for the JFK murder. It NEVER occurred to him until AFTER THE FACT.

Then it was too late.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Do you think Oswald honestly believed his alleged Operation Mongoose "buddies" would use his Mannlicher-Carcano to kill Castro?

Regarding your theory tha Oswald allowed himself to be "framed" as an officer of the New Orleans FPCC in order to get into Cuba, why in the world would he have desired to go to Cuba in 1963?

--Tommy

Edited September 7, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Do you think Oswald honestly believed his Mannlicher-Carcano would be used to kill Castro?

--Tommy

No, Tommy, I think that Oswald probably believed that his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle would probably be used in some petty crime in Dallas. Oswald's motive for bringing his rifle to the TSBD building was threefold:

(1) Oswald believed that Gerry Patrick Hemming was his "friend" and that he could trust him with anything, and so he was only doing a personal favor for a "friend".

(2) Oswald knew that Texans in Dallas brought their guns and rifles to the TSBD all the time -- for show and tell. It was no big deal. (We have several stories about this, including stories about a German Mauser and other weapons at the TSBD that day.)

(3) Oswald needed the money.

It was a side deal, IMHO, but it was also a team-building exercise. Gerry Patrick Hemming asked for a favor (for a friend) and Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to please him. That's my assessment so far.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 7, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

One would think that the newspaper-reading Oswald knew that Kennedy was coming to Dallas on 11/22/63 and would be passing right by the seven-story TSBD. Given that premise, I'm absolutely shocked that the penurious Oswald didn't turn down Hemming's offer and insist that he wouldn't accept less than triple what he'd paid for the rifle to smuggle that sucker into the building that morning and hide it in a prearranged place on the sixth floor.

LOL

--Tommy

I think this speaks to the issue of trust, Tommy.

It seems to me that Lee Oswald could only become the PATSY of a plot to murder JFK if he trusted his framers fully, and truly believed that they were his friends, and that they were all going for the same gold.

It seems reasonable to me that Lee Oswald believed he was part of Operation Mongoose, and that all of his accomplices were actually plotting to murder Fidel Castro.

Remember that Lee Oswald let himself be framed as the officer of the New Orleans FPCC (a chapter which had only one member, Oswald himself) and then take that publicity with him to Mexico City and demand (foolishly) an Instant Visa into Cuba based on his alleged high-status in the FPCC. That took months to prepare. Why did Lee Oswald do it? Because, IMHO, he really and truly believed his framers when they told him that officers in the FPCC get "instant passage" in to Cuba.

There's really no other satisfactory explanation for Lee Oswald making a complete fool of himself in Mexico City that day. We must conclude that Lee Oswald BELIEVED HIS FRAMERS. They were probably laughing their heads off at the time.

Lee Oswald NEVER suspected that he was the Patsy for the JFK murder. It NEVER occurred to him until AFTER THE FACT.

Then it was too late.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Do you think Oswald honestly believed his alleged Operation Mongoose "buddies" would use his Mannlicher-Carcano to kill Castro?

Regarding your theory that Oswald allowed himself to be "framed" as an officer of the New Orleans FPCC in order to get into Cuba, why in the world would he have desired to go to Cuba in 1963?

The only reasons I can think of are 1) as part of a CIA operation to test the Cuban and Russian Mexico City authorities and, if able to get into Cuba, to possibly do some CIA dirty work there, or 2) To go to Cuba and then possibly Russia after informing them of the upcoming JFK assassination.

--Tommy

bumped because Trejo always seems to respond to my posts before I've finished editing them

Edited September 7, 2014 by Thomas Graves