A Few Questions For Larry Hancock

[Thomas Graves]

Hi Larry,

I was looking through SWHT again today and noticed a couple of things I'd like to comment on or ask you about.

1) On page 27 you write

" Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter ('hit man' was Martino's term) and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater (sic). Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. The actual plan was to kill him-- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Officer Tippit was definitely not part of this plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theatre to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest. [...] "

Questions:

A) What part of "the plan" did Oswald think he was performing or pretending to be performing?

B ) Do you think Oswald was an actual conspirator, or was he an undercover agent who was "playing along" with and monitoring people whom he had been led to believe were pro-Castro agents intent on killing JFK?

C) If Oswald was "part of the plan" but not a shooter, why then did he think he was going to be taken out of the country?

D) Do you think it's possible that Oswald didn't shoot at JFK but did kill Tippit because Tippit was going to arrest him and prevent him from making his all-important rendezvous at the Texas Theatre? It doesn't make sense that a conspirator would kill Tippit if he knew that doing so would prevent Oswald from making his all-important contact at the theater to be taken out of the country (and killed). So-- If Oswald didn't kill Tippit, who did and why?

E) Did Oswald know that he was supposed to meet an (apparently) unknown-to-him shooter in the Theatre?

F) Did the police arrest (or detain, or place in "protective custody") this shooter because someone "fingered" him in the theater, or because he looked like Oswald? Is this the same guy some people saw the police put into a police car in the alley behind the theater?

And now for a separate question: What happened to the footnotes to Appendix H -- Odio Revisited?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS I just realized that I mis-spelled your name in the thread's title! Sorry about that! Would a moderator please correct it? Thank you.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I'll do my best....replies in caps below:

I was looking through SWHT again today and noticed a couple of things I'd like to comment on or ask you about.

1) On page 27 you write

" Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter ('hit man' was Martino's term) and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater (sic). Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. The actual plan was to kill him-- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Officer Tippit was definitely not part of this plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theatre to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest. [...] "

Questions:

A) What part of "the plan" did Oswald think he was performing or pretending to be performing?

I THINK THAT WHILE IN DALLAS OSWALD WAS CONTINUING A PATTERN THAT HE HAD WORKED INTO IN NEW ORLEANS, THAT OF APPROACHING A VARIETY OF INDIVIDUALS AND GROUPS AND LETTING THEM MAKE - OR NOT MAKE - APPROACHES TO HIM, IN OTHER WORDS ACTING AS A CLASSIC DANGLE. SOME OF THAT MAY HAVE BEEN AT HIS OWN INITIATIVE BUT HE MAY ALSO HAVE RECEIVED THAT GENERAL DIRECTION IN HIS CONTACTS WITH THE FBI SUBVERSIVE GROUP AGENT IN NEW ORLEANS. AS FAR AS DALLAS GOES, HE CONTINUED TO BE APPROACHED BY CUBAN EXILES, PERHAPS THE SAME GUYS FROM NEW ORLEANS OR POSSIBLY EVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND THEY KEPT TALKING TO HIM AS IF THEY WERE CASTRO AGENTS - AS THEY HAD BEFORE. WHAT THEY TOLD HIM ABOUT NOVEMBER 22 IS BEYOND ME OTHER THAN IT SEEMS LIKELY THEY TOLD HIM THAT THEY WERE GOING TO HELP HIM GET TO CUBA AND HE WAS PLANNING ON LEAVING TOWN THAT DAY. IF MARINA HAD AGREED TO MOVE BACK IN WITH HIM HE MIGHT HAVE BLOWN IT OFF BUT SINCE SHE DIDN'T..... I HAVE NO IDEA IF HE THOUGHT HE WOULD GO AND COME BACK SECRETLY, THAT IS VERY POSSIBLE AS HE HAD CONTINUALLY EXPLORED WAYS TO GET IN AND OUT OF CUBA. THE ONE THING I'M SURE OF FROM HIS BEHAVIOR IS THAT HE HAD NO CLUE THE PRESIDENT WOULD ACTUALLY BE SHOT AND SEVERELY INJURED OR KILLED.

B ) Do you think Oswald was an actual conspirator, or was he an undercover agent who was "playing along" with and monitoring people whom he had been led to believe were pro-Castro agents intent on killing JFK?

FROM THE ABOVE YOU CAN SEE MY PICK WOULD BE "B"

C) If Oswald was "part of the plan" but not a shooter, why then did he think he was going to be taken out of the country?

HE HAD BEEN RECRUITED AS A CASTRO SUPPORTER, HE MAY HAVE THOUGHT IT WAS TO GET HIM TO CUBA TO DO SOME PROPAGANDA THING OR HE MAY HAVE THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE PREPARED TO OPERATE UNDERCOVER FOR CASTRO - REMEMBER, WHEN HE WROTE THE CPUSA BEFORE THE WASHINGTON DC PLOT ABORTED, HE HAD ALREADY ASKED IF HE SHOULD GO UNDERGROUND. NONE OF THAT WAS SINCERE BUT HE WAS PLAYING THEIR GAME NOT HIS OWN.

D) Do you think it's possible that Oswald didn't shoot at JFK but did kill Tippit because Tippit was going to arrest him and prevent him from making his all-important rendezvous at the Texas Theatre? It doesn't make sense that a conspirator would kill Tippit if he knew that doing so would prevent Oswald from making his all-important contact at the theater to be taken out of the country (and killed). So-- If Oswald didn't kill Tippit, who did and why?

I DO THINK ITS POSSIBLE OSWALD KILLED TIPPET OUT OF PURE GUT REACTION WHEN HE SAW HIM PUTTING HIS HAND ON HIS WEAPON OR POSSIBLY PULLING IT. AT THAT POINT OSWALD KNEW HE HAD BEEN SET UP AND HAD NO IDEA WHO HE COULD TRUST. HE RETURNED AND GOT HIS GUN TO DEFEND HIMSELF AND IT MAY HAVE BEEN THAT SIMPLE.

E) Did Oswald know that he was supposed to meet an (apparently) unknown-to-him shooter in the Theatre?

THE MAN MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO HIM OR FOR THAT MATTER THE GUY HE EXPECTED DIDN'T MAKE IT. HE WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN HE WAS A SHOOTER - IT WAS SIMPLY A PICK UP POINT, OR POSSIBLY A PLACE TO GET FURTHER DIRECTIONS.

F) Did the police arrest (or detain, or place in "protective custody") this shooter because someone "fingered" him in the theater, or because he looked like Oswald? Is this the same guy some people saw the police put into a police car in the alley behind the theater?

THEY WELL MAY HAVE PICKED HIM UP AND EVEN INTERROGATED HIM. ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT I FIND IT VERY SUSPICIOUS THAT THE LIST OF PEOPLE IN THE THEATER THAT DPD MADE THEN DISAPPEARED, VERY SHODDY WORK THAT. IT WOULD ALSO EXPLAIN THE INFORMATION THAT FRITZ APPEARED TO HAVE ABOUT MARTINO CARRYING MONEY TO DALLAS ETC. BUT THAT IS ALL PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART. STILL, I THINK IF THEY DID NOT PICK HIM UP, POSSIBLY GOING OUT THE BACK DOOR, HE WAS IN THE THEATER.

And now for a separate question: What happened to the footnotes to Appendix H -- Odio Revisited?

I'M PRESUMING YOU HAVE THE 2010 EDITION....LOOKS LIKE THE FOOTNOTES GOT MELDED BETWEEN APPENDIX G AND H. I CAN CHECK THE PDF I HAVE BUT THE ONLY REAL ANSWER WOULD HAVE TO COME FROM DEBRA WHO PUBLISHED IT, I NO LONGER HAVE A WORKING MASTER, JUST A PDF OF WHAT GOT PRINTED. UNFORTUNATELY AT THIS POINT THERE IS NO WAY I COULD RECREATE IT FROM MEMORY, SORRY

[David Andrews]

Larry, do you put any credence in the supposed eyewitness report that Oswald moved around the theater, sitting next to various people, including a pregnant woman? (I myself can't remember where this account originated.)

[Larry Hancock]

I do remember that observation David and its one of the things that makes me think that he didn't personally know the person he was supposed to connect with...I recall that he sat by possibly

three or four people or at least moved into the vicinity of different people but I did not recall a pregnant women..... of course by that time he may have been so stressed that he was

behaving a bit irrationally.....if he did pull his gun on the police officer it suggests he had hit sort of a panic mode....understandable no doubt....

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, I'll do my best....replies in caps below:

I was looking through SWHT again today and noticed a couple of things I'd like to comment on or ask you about.

1) On page 27 you write

" Oswald was part of the plan, but not a shooter ('hit man' was Martino's term) and was supposed to meet an exile contact at the Texas Theater (sic). Oswald's understanding was that he was being taken out of the country. The actual plan was to kill him-- apparently outside the country, and very possibly in a location and fashion that would tie him to Cuba and Castro. The killing of Officer Tippit was definitely not part of this plan and indeed aborted the contact. One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theatre to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest. [...] "

Questions:

[...]

E) Did Oswald know that he was supposed to meet an (apparently) unknown-to-him shooter in the Theatre?

THE MAN MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO HIM OR FOR THAT MATTER THE GUY HE EXPECTED DIDN'T MAKE IT. HE WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN HE WAS A SHOOTER - IT WAS SIMPLY A PICK UP POINT, OR POSSIBLY A PLACE TO GET FURTHER DIRECTIONS.

F) Did the police arrest (or detain, or place in "protective custody") this shooter because someone "fingered" him in the theater, or because he looked like Oswald? Is this the same guy some people saw the police put into a police car in the alley behind the theater?

THEY WELL MAY HAVE PICKED HIM UP AND EVEN INTERROGATED HIM. ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT I FIND IT VERY SUSPICIOUS THAT THE LIST OF PEOPLE IN THE THEATER THAT DPD MADE THEN DISAPPEARED, VERY SHODDY WORK THAT. IT WOULD ALSO EXPLAIN THE INFORMATION THAT FRITZ APPEARED TO HAVE ABOUT MARTINO CARRYING MONEY TO DALLAS ETC. BUT THAT IS ALL PURELY SPECULATION ON MY PART. STILL, I THINK IF THEY DID NOT PICK HIM UP, POSSIBLY GOING OUT THE BACK DOOR, HE WAS IN THE THEATER.

[...]

Larry,

What evidence do we have that:

A ) A shooter was waiting for Oswald in the theater.

and

B ) The police released this shooter after Oswald was arrested.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited June 18, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, we have no hard evidence that a shooter or anyone else was waiting for Oswald. What we do have is two statements from Martino's friends who related that he told him that Oswald was

supposed to make a contact in the theater with someone who had been representing themselves as a Castro agent to him. Nothing at all was ever said about the individual being a shooter.

In addition to that, we have a document which has been mentioned before which is a HSCA interview with a Dallas police motorcycle officer who was a close friend of Fritz.

On that typed interview is a handwritten note, apparently from the HSCA saff member relating additional comments made by the officer directing them to Fritz for details about

Martino having served as a courier, bringing money to Dallas for the shooting. We have never been able to track down who did the interview or who might have made the notes. I personally have

talked to a couple of DPD officers who told me that the Chief knew far more than he ever said to the public, including the fact that his investigation had been shut down from

Washington.

That's all I can give you, not a body of evidence I'd take to court but internally consistent on the face of things... which is about all that can be said for it. Larry

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, we have no hard evidence that a shooter or anyone else was waiting for Oswald. What we do have is two statements from Martino's friends who related that he told him that Oswald was

supposed to make a contact in the theater with someone who had been representing themselves as a Castro agent to him. Nothing at all was ever said about the individual being a shooter.

In addition to that, we have a document which has been mentioned before which is a HSCA interview with a Dallas police motorcycle officer who was a close friend of Fritz.

On that typed interview is a handwritten note, apparently from the HSCA saff member relating additional comments made by the officer directing them to Fritz for details about

Martino having served as a courier, bringing money to Dallas for the shooting. We have never been able to track down who did the interview or who might have made the notes. I personally have

talked to a couple of DPD officers who told me that the Chief knew far more than he ever said to the public, including the fact that his investigation had been shut down from

Washington.

That's all I can give you, not a body of evidence I'd take to court but internally consistent on the face of things... which is about all that can be said for it. Larry

Thanks, Larry.

The only reason I asked is because you stated on page 27 of SWHT, "One of the shooters was actually waiting in the Texas Theatre to contact Oswald and was released by the police after Oswald's arrest."

I guess you weren't stating your own belief there, but instead just relaying what Martino's two friends claimed Martino had told them.

--Tommy

Edited June 18, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

I should have been more clear Tommy, that would have been "according to Martino". I would have to check the documents again to see if he specifically said "shooter". Then

again we have to be cautious and remember that Martino's own first hand knowledge was very limited; he had simply served as a courier. That was part of the compartmentalization.

Of course that never prevents gossip afterwards and much of the limited detail he described to his friends was probably second hand.

At the time I was writing the book I was unaware of the notes on the HSCA interview - that may have made it into the final edition somewhere, possibly as a footnote. SWHT was done

in three iterations over about 5 years as I learned more so I can't claim it is nearly as structured as it should be....I tried to do better with NEXUUS.

My opinion at the moment is that there was a contact person in the theater, at best he was released with the others and possibly he was seized going out the rear and interrogated.

If he was and Fritz learned anything at all it surely would never have made it out during the "shut down", perhaps Hoover had very good reason to worry about how much

the DPD officers were talking...