Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Robert Mady]

Why didn't you just say that pneumothorax means collapsed lung?

One theory I heard many years ago and I guess has been dismissed for whatever reason seems to me to have a ring of truth and that is KENNEDY was first struck not by a common missile but by a projectile that had a toxin on it, a candidate offered was blowfish toxin. In wiki here is a snippet from the article on ingesting blow fish toxin:

"followed by numbness and prickling over the body, rapid heart rate, decreased blood pressure, and muscle paralysis. The toxin paralyzes diaphragm muscles and stops the person who has ingested it from breathing"

How high a dose did KENNEDY receive, enough to cause immediate paralysis and effect his lungs?

Look at the Z-film, KENNEDY raises his hands to his face then he seems to slowly drift off as he may be loosing consciousness. His reaction to me is not someone who is has just received a minor wound, it is someone who has been poisoned and in extreme pain, this is my opinion.

If the Doctors at Parkland ran into lung problems they certainly weren't looking for problems that could have been caused by anything other than brunt trauma caused by bullets.

I believe KENNEDY was poisoned by the first shot. Otherwise why did 'they' risk taking this silent frontal shot? Why not just shoot KENNEDY in the head with a rifle shot?

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Jon G. Tidd]

Robert Mady,

Your comment raises a question: How much of the physical record implicating Oswald was planted pre-assassination, and how much was fabricated post-assassination?

It's clear to me the pristine bullet was fabricated post-assassination. If the back wound was fabricated. it was fabricated post-mortem on 11-22-63.

I've never thought the back wound was fabricated. If as you say it was, in order to link the pristine bullet to a JFK wound, than I credit the plotters with excellent plotting that failed to achieve its objective. No one other than you, as far as I know, has made this link.

I've thought the plotters had one initial objective for Oswald: to get him arrested for JFK's murder (or Tippit's murder). He was a hot potato for the FBI and the CIA, and therefore those agencies would make sure he was never investigated honestly.

I've thought the plotters had simply one more objective for Oswald: to make sure he didn't talk openly.

The plotters didn't have to worry about cover-up once Oswald was dead. J. Edgar Hoover, acting out of self interest, would see to the cover-up.

Given that Oswald was arrested and charged before any physical record implicating him (except apparently a backyard photo that Oswald dismissed) had come to light. fabricating a physical record implicating him would have been fairly easy.

In my estimation, the whole physical record implicating Oswald has been fabricated. In my view therefore whether the back wound was fabricated is a minor issue.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert

Why didn't I just say that pneumothorax meant collapsed lung? For the simple fact that the word pneumothorax means much more than collapsed lung, and only the "open" pneumothorax is associated solely with a collapsed lung.

However, the signs Dr. Jenkins was referring to were not of an "open" pneumothorax, although JFK's condition certainly began with an "open" pneumothorax, but of an associated condition known as a "tension" pneumothorax; a condition just as serious, and just as capable of killing a patient, as an open pneumothorax (sucking chest wound).

Sound confusing? Listen closely then, if you are capable of doing such a thing.

When the bullet entered the upper back of JFK's right lung (staying there) it put a hole in something known as the "pleural" lining of the pleural cavity. Imagine, if you will, a large airtight bag containing the right lung and attached to the diaphragm and inner chest wall. When you breathe in, you move the diaphragm part of this bag downward, increasing the volume of the pleural cavity and lowering the air pressure in the pleural cavity. When this occurs, air at atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi) enters through your nose and mouth, and attempts to equalize the pressure. Your lung, being in this pleural cavity, inflates like a balloon.

However, should there be a hole in the pleural lining, each time the diaphragm moves downward, air will rush in through this hole, filling the pleural cavity with air. With pressure being equalized in this manner, the lung cannot inflate and "collapses".

The medical solution for this, and it must be done quickly to prevent death by asphyxiation, is to seal this hole with a rubber gloved hand, a piece of plastic, tape or whatever happens to be handy. Once sealed, the pleural cavity is airtight, and the lung will inflate as it should.

HOWEVER, that is only half of the story. There is a very good chance that whatever put a hole in the pleural lining also put a hole in the lung itself. Now that the hole in the pleural lining is sealed, the lung with the hole in it will partially inflate, but a great deal of the air will go through this hole in the lung, and begin to fill the space between lung and pleural lining (pleural cavity) with air. When the patient exhales, the lung collapses on itself, sealing the hole in the lung and not allowing air in the pleural cavity to escape.

With each breath, the volume in the pleural cavity grows. At a certain point, this volume of air begins to exert pressure on the other organs in the chest (heart, other lung, major blood vessels), displacing them away from the affected lung and impairing their function. A real medical emergency has developed and a patient can die within minutes from it. This condition is, of course, the "tension" pneumothorax I spoke of earlier. The medical solution for a tension pneumothorax is the insertion of a large bore needle or tube in the intercostal space, between the 2nd and 3rd rib, to relieve this pressure. However, it must only allow air out, and not in, and this is why JFK's chest tube was connected to a water seal bottle.

So, what was observed about JFK?

1. Deviated trachea. This is the most obvious sign of a tension pneumothorax and cannot be confused with any other condition. Air volume was building in JFK's right pleural cavity, exerting pressure on all the other organs in his chest and pushing them to the left, including the trachea.

2. Obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax. Not knowing JFK had been shot in the back, Dr. Jenkins would have had to rely on the lack of expansion in the right lung to make this observation.

How did the tension pneumothorax develop? Quite simple, actually. When JFK was in the limo, his condition was likely only an open pneumothorax, as nothing was contacting the bullet wound and it remained open. But, when he was laid on his back on a metal cart, the wound would have been directly in contact with the metal, sealing it off, and beginning a tension pneumothorax.

If the damage to the lung was as extensive as I believe it was, JFK had a very good chance of dying from the back wound alone.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Mady]

Jon, remember the first scenario proposed; first shot hit KENNEDY in the back causing a shallow wound, second shot wounds CONNALLY and the third shot causes the fatal head wound.

The bullet found on the stretcher was claimed to be a match for the MC rifle and fell out of the shallow back wound when they tried to resuscitate KENNEDY.

THEN TAGUE became an unsurmountable problem for the three shot three hit theory.

They had to reinvent the 'pristine' bullet to be the 'magic' bullet and it then was claimed to have fallen out of CONNALLYS leg wound.

The original scenario followed the planted evidence of the origin for the shots, the rifle, old and faulty ammunition, the 'pristine' bullet found and the shallow hole on KENNEDYS back.

This also was the plausible reason why some people claimed to hear a 'firecracker' like sound for the first shot, this was also the plausible reason why the SSA failed to protect the President, they did not comprehend that a rifle shot had been fired at the President, they were confused.

The shallow hole in KENNEDYS back was attributed to poor ammunition, which could not drive the bullet any deeper than an inch into KENNEDY, the poor ammunition would also be the reason that the first shot did not sound like a rifle shot and the excuse why no one reacted.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Three witnesses riding in Camera Car #1, which was in the process of turning onto Elm street when the first rifle shot is heard.

Thomas Atkins: “. Just as we turned, I remember looking at my watch…as I looked at my watch I heard an explosion.”

Thomas Craven, “It was just as we were making the turn.

Wiegman “I heard the first report and I thought like everybody else that it was a good sized fire cracker—a cherry bomb. Then when I heard the second one, the adrenaline really started pumping because there was a reaction in the motorcade. I was sitting on the edge of the (car door) frame, which I sometimes did. I keenly remember right after the incident that my feet were on the ground during one of the reports. I don’t think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was running.”

Here is a series of captures from Wiegman film, it tells you where the Camera Car #1 was located when the first rifle shot is heard and the second as well as when Wiegman was out of the car and running toward the source of the sounds.

Camera Car #1 is clearly making the turn onto Elm at the moment Wiegman hears rifle shot number 1

I believe you can tell when the first rifle shot occurs by the motion of the camera that was panning right, immediately pans left towards the sound of the shots, as the motorcade came to a halt, Wiegman gets out of the car as shots 2 and 3 ring out, Wiegman runs directly toward the source of the sounds.

Zapruder film is not the only film that provides the timing of the shots.

Wiegman provides a more accurate timing of the three rifle shots.

Note all three witness because of where they stated the CC#1 was at the moment of hearing the first shot, puts the limo at Z-313 at that moment, there is no other possibility.

This make 29 witnesses that support the first rifle shot occurring at Z-313.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

National Press Pool Car - this car can be seen in front on CC#1 in Wiegman film, it is the dark colored sedan.

Merriman Smith “We were at the point of coming out of an underpass when the first shot was fired. (substitute turn for underpass and this becomes true)

Jack Bell “already had made the turn toward the underpass and we had just completed it when there was a loud report.”

Robert Baskin “Over to our right loomed the gaunt structure labeled the Texas School Book Depository. It was 12:30 p.m. The sharp crack of a rifle rang out.”

Bob Clark “But our car was just making the turn underneath the window where Oswald was firing.”

Malcolm Kilduff, interview, 1991 “Just as we turned by the TSBD, I was directly under the window when we heard the first noise.”

Five more witnesses that place the vehicle they were riding in at a location that places the first rifle shot they hear to be when the limo was at Z-313, there can be no other possibility.

That makes 34 witnesses that claimed the first rifle shot they heard could not have occurred prior to Z-313.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Now that you understand where the cars actually where when the first rifle shot was heard, here are two testimonies from media people riding in CC#2, directly behind CC#1, which should have been in the process of turning onto Elm when the first shot occurred. These local Dallas prostitutes just outright lie to enhance the WC fiction.

Clint Grant, a Dallas Morning News photographer, sat in the middle of the front seat. (Pictures of the Pain p.398, letter Grant to Trask 12-1-85) “we had just turned onto Houston Street when we heard one shot—pause—two shots in rapid succession. I thought it was someone playing a prank—maybe a kid’s cherry bomb.”

(11-21-93 Reporters Remember journalism conference, as quoted in Reporting the Kennedy Assassination) “as we turned the corner at Main and Houston, I heard three shots ring out.”

Cecil Stoughton, a photographer working for the White House, sat on the left side of the back seat.

(3-1-71 interview with the Johnson Library)"We hadn't gotten to the corner yet. When we did get to the corner from Main turning onto Elm, the President's car must have just rounded the corner, and by the time we were halfway up that one block street, we heard these shots, which were obvious shots to my compatriots and I, sitting on the back of the convertible, wide open. We all looked around, and I made a remark to the extent: "These Texans really know how to give you a salute. They're probably firing off their .45's or firecrackers or something like that." It's just some kind of a noisy thing. But they were so definitely shots that it just worried me for a little bit."

(Pictures of the Pain, p.38, based upon Trask interview 7-10-85) “Just after Stoughton’s car had made its turn at the Old Court House, he heard three very distinct, loud reports, which sounded like shots.”

[Robert Mady]

Witnesses in CC#3, now that you know where camera car should be at the sound of the first rifle shot, either just starting to turn onto Elm or turning onto Elm.

Read where these guys place the vehicle and remember these are the same guys the WC used to claim they may have seen a rifle in the window.

James Underwood:"As we made the turn here at the intersection of Elm and Houston I heard first a loud report. "

Dom Dillard : “Mr. Dillard stated the car in which he was riding had not approached the corner of Houston and Elm Streets when he heard a noise sounding like a “torpedo” (a large firecracker). He states upon hearing another sound similar to the first he realized it was gunfire. He states that upon hearing the third shot the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.”

and

(When asked exactly where they were on Houston when they heard the first shots) “just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when I heard the first explosion."

and

Dillard's car was about at the County Jail House. When Dillard heard the first shot

and

My car had just turned north on Houston Street and was at the County Jail entrance when the first shot was fired.

Malcolm Couch "I would say, uh, 15 or 20 feet from the turn—from off of Main onto Houston…We had already completed the turn"

They realized they could not have testimony placing the CC#3 making the turn so over time the location continued to regress down Houston farther from Elm.

The press is not your friend. they are not there to tell you the truth, they are there to provide a conduit for the lies that shape public opinion to the will of those that rule us.

No one in CC#3 saw a rifle, just a bunch of lie thru their teeth common news media whores.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

PO Baker

11/22 "Just as I approached Elm and Houston I heard three shots

WC "Mr. BAKER - AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out."

<Wrong answer BAKER, remember what we agreed you would say, lets try this again>

WC "Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.
Mr. BELIN - And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street?
Mr. BAKER - We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston.
Mr. DULLES - Thank you.

You know that Baker was just about to turn onto Elm Street when the first shot occurred because he was escorting close to CC#2 which was in the process of turning onto Elm when the first rifle shot occurs.

But this is way too late to fit the WC three shot scenario so they had to move his location much further back towards Main, just like the guys did in CC#2 and CC#3, just a bunch of liars. Problem is keeping the lies straight.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Jon G. Tidd]

Robert Prudhomme,

Your #63 post is interesting and informative. As I understand, you maintain a bullet entered JFK's back, penetrated the lining of his chest (parietal pleura), penetrated the pleural cavity, penetrated the visceral pleural (which covers the outside surface of the lung), and entered the right lung.

The autopsy report states: "...there is contusion of the parietal pleura and of the extreme apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung." Humes here is saying something bruised both the parietal pleura and the top of the lung.

QUESTIONS: If Humes is wrong, if the parietal pleura and the lung were penetrated not just bruised, do you think Humes had a reason to lie here? If you do, what do you believe was his reason?

[Robert Mady]

I have provided proofs that the first rifle shot occurred at Z-313, proofs that witnesses lied to support the WC fiction.

Do I need to provide another 34 witnesses that support the first rifle shot that is heard occurs at Z-313 or will that not be enough?

Will there ever be enough evidence to wake from the entrancement from lies so strongly believed?

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Mark Knight]

Robert, you need to understand something.

Just because someone doesn't post the equivalent of, "BY JOVE, HE'S RIGHT!!!!" immediately after your post, that does NOT mean that people are not in agreement with you. In fact, even if folks are only in partial agreement with you, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're "against" you.

Let people have time to digest what you've posted. Let them compare the information from you with the information from other sources. Personally, I think you're on the right track, for the most part. BUT I'm not always going to chime right in because [a] I like to authenticate the reports I see, such as referring back to the WC testimony posted at the Mary Ferrell Foundation website; and I'm not on the forum 24/7. And sometimes I like to sit back and watch for reactions to your posts.

If you hunted deer the way you post here, you'd be ready to leave the woods 5 minutes after you arrived...and I don't mean that you'd have bagged a deer, I mean that your impatience would have done you in as a hunter.

[Robert Mady]

Mark, criticism well deserved, thank you for setting me straight.

Part of this is my frustration because there is so much information that could be posted to prove the 4 shot model, and it seems I am stuck trying to instruct kindergarteners on basic potty training. I have no clue if the children are even listening or just taking a nap.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

So where was PO BAKER

I believe when he says he was 20-30 feet from the corner this is exactly where he was, except it was the corner of Elm not Main.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hello Jon

Interestingly, Jerrol F. Custer, an x-ray technician present at the Bethesda autopsy, has maintained that all personnel without a certain clearance were not present when JFK's heart and lungs were removed. If what he claims is true, there was definitely something worth hiding.

There is an obvious problem with the scenario I painted in post # 63, and I am surprised that neither you nor anyone else has pointed it out to me. The flaw is this, why did the 162 grain FMJ Carcano bullet, famous for its penetrating capabilities, come to a halt partway through the top of JFK's right lung, instead of exiting the front of his chest and going through Connally's seat and Connally, as well?

The answer to this question is, I believe, the fact that ordinary full metal jacket bullets were not used in the assassination. The most likely candidate was an early version of something known as a "hollow point frangible" bullet, a modern example of which can be seen at this website:

www.drtammo.com

These modern bullets are made from a compressed metal powder encased in a copper alloy jacket. This jacket has a small hollow point at its nose, as can be seen. Not only are these bullets possibly the most lethal rifle bullets on the market today, they are also incapable of ricocheting if they hit a hard surface such as concrete, stone or steel. When they hit such a surface,%