Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Robert Mady]

Mr. CRAWFORD - Southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. CRAWFORD - As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the Sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car -
Mr. BALL - At that time?
Mr. CRAWFORD - That's right; I couldn't even see the secret Service car, at least wasn't looking for it....

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert

Have you ever read CE 2084? It is an FBI interview with Mary Woodward, the Dallas Morning News reporter.

[Robert Mady]

Robert Post #3

MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD – FBI” Just as the President and Mrs. KENNEDY went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. KENNEDY probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots”

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Mady

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

Mary Woodward was positioned at a point where JFK, when he passed her, was at what represents 197 on Zapruder's film.

I don't question Mary's statement, however how can we accept that she has - recollecting what she saw and heard - accurately measured the time elapse as a few seconds. We have no idea what she meant by that term and how accurate her memory is.

6.5 seconds elapsed between 197 and 313 - let alone beyond 313.

Put simply. Given where Mary Woodward was standing and how much further the car had to travel, there is serious doubt on exactly what is meant by a few seconds.

James.

[David Josephs]

CECIL AULT "Following the first shot Mr. AULT noted that President KENNEDY appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the President slumped into his seat."

Same discussion as with SMITH and MOONEYHAM, ALT must be describing the shot at Z-313, he is also a half a block away.

ALT can not be describing JFK leaning to his left he is describing President KENNEDY movements following being fatally wounded.

At Z-313 Alt notices a gross movement made by the bullet impacting KENNEDY, then after the next rifle shot, JACKIE gets out of the limo and as she does she lets go of KENNEDY and he falls into the seat, after the second rifle shot, this is what ALT is describing.

Help me out here Robert... I am not sure why you choose to ignore the evidence of one if not two shots at least, being fired prior to Z313.

Altgens tells us the limo moved only a short distance after his first photo of the limo coming down Elm.

Witnesses saw sparks behind the limo as it finished the turn onto Elm and Hickey and Rosemary react to this shot

What is JFK doing here as his arms come up and he appears to rise a bit out of his seat?

I hope you understand that I agree with you that many more shots were fired than the evidence suggests and that a shot was fired after z313 for sure.

But Z313 as the first shot? Based on your subjective analysis of witness statements in an attempt to support a theory? your theory?

You stating that they MUST be talking about Z313 does not make it so Robert.... and arguing that other witnesses did not hear an earlier shot does not invalidate the conclusion that earlier shots were fired.

Those who do mention this earlier shot describe it as a street level sound like a backfire or firecracker and different from the later shots.

If they believed it was NOT A SHOT but a backfire, then to them z313 may be first... again, does not make it so.

I have to resepctfully disagree with your conclusion and if need be can offer witness after witness who places shots much earlier than Z313....

What exactly is JFK doing in the bottom gif if there are no shots until 313? as opposed to conflicting evidence about 1st, 2nd, 3rd or more shots.

(Have you read Dino's account of his viewing of the film with 6-8 shots coming from 3 directions?)

Let's add one more bit of corroborate evidence for an earlier shot... John Connally tells us that 150-200 feet after the turn he hears the first shot.

The elevation in West's survey for the first shot is 423.07 which he equates to 171 feet past the corner of Elm/Houston.

The same legend total messes up everything after Z240 and as you can see from the following, the actual LAST SHOT was at 416.83 which is well past Z313 at an elevation of 421.75.

Z186-z240 lies 150 - 200 feet past the corner and while movie magic can possibly move the head shot up Elm 40 feet I don't see how it can effect shots prior to 200 other than with what we see at 157 with the splice and removal of frames or at 207 - again with the removal of frames.

I hope you can take this into consideration within the proof of your theory. We have a reaction in JFK and DP well before he head disappears further down Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made?

Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the first shot was fired.

NUMBER 12.* This is Phil Willis' fifth photo, showing JFK approaching sign; Zapruder in background on grassy knoll pedestal, camera at eye. Willis said he snapped photo in reaction to hearing first shot. Photo was sanpped at Z-202, confirming Z-189 was time of first shot. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/GoD.html

(Rosemary Willis recounting what she remembers to a group which includes Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski )

Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt

[Robert Mady]

James

It is much easier to estimate and recall distances than it would be to afterwards estimate a time element.

MOST IMPORTANT : The testimony of WOODWARD is not anomalous, it corroborates and is corroborated by the testimonies already posted as well as many additional testimonies that may be posted, concerning the first rifle shot heard.

It is not WOODWARDS testimony alone that needs to be addressed but all of the data points presented that indicate that first rifle shot heard occurred at Z-313 which was the cause of the fatal head wound and caused the President to 'slump' as described by many witnesses.

What researchers need to come to realize is that the WC and their tool the news media altered our perception of the assassination and that misperception is what needs to be dissolved.

Researches must understand no rifle shots were heard until Z-313 and no one in DP comprehended that the President had been wounded prior to seeing him 'slump' after being fatally wounded.

Testimony that appears to support the WC three shot theory had either been influenced by FBI and news media propaganda or were intended lies.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

David, thank you for the questions.

I will take some time to reread and address some of your points.

But for now let me frame the purpose of this thread, it is to show researchers that there is abundant and compelling evidence available from witnesses throughout DP and as well as in the motorcade that provided testimony that essentially claims the first rifle shot they heard would have been at Z-313.

ROSEMARY is not distracted by the sound of a rifle, it is a umbrella or cane wielding guard. ROSEMARY immediately stops running and turns to look back at this person.

You have been mislead by confounded researchers searching for the evidence of a rifle shot were there is none.

ROSEMARY CAN NOT BE the only witness in DP to have reacted to a rifle shot!

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Mady

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mary Woodward, along with two of her friends, can be seen at the extreme left of the Altgens 6 photo. I believe she is the 3rd woman to the left of the man in the hard hat. The problem I find with Altgens 6 is that everything seems to be compressed. For instance, people that appear to be directly in front of the TSBD steps can be seen, in the Croft photo, to actually be much further down the sidewalk. It would be interesting to know precisely where JFK and the limo are at the time of the Altgens photo.

As we have no way of knowing how quickly JFK raised his arms to the level of his throat, he may have done this a fraction of a second before Altgens snapped his photo, as Altgens testified he took this photo almost simultaneously with the sound of the first shot he heard.

Looking at the Altgens 6 photo, and taking into consideration the amount of compression Altgens' telephoto lens has lent to this photo, do you think JFK is one hundred feet away from Mary Woodward at this point?

P.S. I am unable to cut & paste on this forum, but if you could post the Croft and Altgens 6 photos, it would make it easier for readers to follow this discussion.

P.P.S. I began this post last night, and had no idea so many fresh posts had been made. I see some of my questions were answered.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

James

It is not so much Mary Woodward's estimate of "a few seconds" that bothers me, it is her estimate of JFK being a hundred feet from her position when she heard the first shot. Where would the limo be if it was a hundred feet from its position at z197?

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

You make a post arguing how Mary Woodward's testimony supports your argument. Then you reply and say actually her testimony is not what is important it is the support it gives other evidence. But - and this is what undermines your credibility - if her testimony is not important on its own then it supports nothing.

In addition Mary pointed out that JFK had yet to reach her. She estimates he was somewhere around 100 feet further up Elm Street. That means JFK was approx 5 seconds before her position. Therefore from the moment JFK waved to her it was another 11 seconds before the first shot was fired.

When JFK's arms move towards his neck - as seen at 225 - what is happening?

If you are arguing that JFK was injured post 313, then the throat wound occurred posts 313. The position JFK was in at 312 makes it impossible for anyone - except somewhere in the South Plaza - to make that wound. This is not conjecture. I know Dealey Plaza topology something you may not know. I have some ability in creating Dealey Plaza topology. The position of JFK's face is now turned away from any gunman in the North plaza.

If all wounds impacted on JFK post 313, it is clear that the first shot was fired at 312.5 - the midway point between 312 and 313. By 320 JFK is too close to Jackie and therefore place her in danger. Therefore the shots that wounded JFK were fired within the space of 8 frames: less than .5 of a second.

Then there is James Teague. His testimony, which has never been challenged, makes clear that he was injured well before the head shot. He had moved inside the Tripple Underpass by that time. He is on record saying that he was out of sight before the fatal shot took place. So Teague has been injured and is back in the Underpass tunnel, yet the car has not reached the point he was shot in the head.

There are numerous fatal flaws to your theory. Returning with statements by various witnesses will not answer these points. Zapruder is a factual document that does not support you. The topology of the plaza is a fixed feature that needs to be addressed. James Tague contradicts your position.

James.

[Robert Mady]

David, after looking over your post, instead of addressing other issues, it might be more beneficial for you to try to comprehend what is being presented, because if you can understand what actually occurred during the assassination the answers to your other inquiries will be self evident.

I asked this question a few posts back and it is really pertinent, I have posted over 30 corroborating testimonies from witnesses that essentially claimed the first rifle shot heard occurred at Z-313, which caused JFK's fatal head wound, which caused the President to 'slump'. IF this evidence has not made an impact on you, then really, there is no explanation I can give you for P WILLIS or R WILLIS or HICKEY or WEST survey that you would believe anyway.

I suggest you also review the thread on Secret Service agents response to help your understanding as to when the first shot actually occurred.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Mady

[James R Gordon]

Robert P,

I had thought about Mary's point before I saw your post. I will look into that. I estimate he is somewhere near 5 seconds before her.

Since Robert M has fixed himself to a point post 313 he has real problems. First the first shot has to have been before 313, because by 313 he has already suffered a fatal wound.

As I have pointed out, the throat wound is now an impossible wound.

Also, which I suspect Rombert M has never thought of, James Tague is a serious flaw in his theory.

James.

[David Josephs]

The interview I posted from is pretty specific Robert....

I posted well more than just her stating the first shot was before Z313 Robert...

You wrote: But for now let me frame the purpose of this thread, it is to show researchers that there is abundant and compelling evidence available from witnesses throughout DP and as well as in the motorcade that provided testimony that essentially claims the first rifle shot they heard would have been at Z-313

Only when you provide your analysis of their statements. The most compelling part of the witness testimony in DP is that it contradicts the official story, the films and the photos.

The physcial Evidence the FBI/SS offered IS the Conspiracy.

The difference is between what witnesses claim was THIER first shot, the evidence we have it was not and how you choose to interpret the statements in relation to the point you are trying to prove.

I've gone back to your first posts to review who you choose to post as supporting evidence as and usual I find that the contradictory statements left off

You wrote: MRS. JACK FRANZEN – FBI: “she heard a noise which sounded to her as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President's automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President's automobile.”

Affidavit: She (Mrs. Jack Frazen) advised shortly after the President's automobile passed by on Elm Street near where she and her family were standing, she heard a noise which sounded to her as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President's automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President's automobile.

But then you leave off her next sentence:

She advised she heard two other sounds which sounded like shots from a firearm and noticed blood appearing on the side of President KENNEDY's head.

The debris she was speaking of was concrete off the pavement, not blood off his head which she tells you about in the next sentence.

JACK FRANZEN – FBI: “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile.”

Mr. and Mrs. FRANZENS description of the first shot causing the debris flying in the limo can only be describing the result of the President receiving the fatal head wound and the debris flying to the rear and left of the limo.

Sorry Robert but your interpretation of this statement leaves alot to be desired and again leaves off the rest of his statement:

Affidavit: Mr. FRANZEN advised he and his wife and small son were standing in the grass area west of Houston Street and south of Elm Street at the time the President's motorcade arrived at that location at approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963. He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile.

He heard a second and third and possibly a fourth explosion and recognized these sounds as being shots fired from some firearm. At the same time he noticed blood appearing at the top and sides of the head of President Kennedy

JAMES TAGUE – FBI: “…when the motorcade was approximately 100 feet from him he heard a loud noise…”

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell us what you saw.
Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots.

WILLIAM SHELLEY – AFFIDAVIT: “The Presidents car was about half way from Houston Street to the triple underpass, when I heard what sounded like three shots.

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together

James Jarman (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p334-335) “He said that he heard a shot and then saw President Kennedy move his right hand up to his head."

Mr. BALL - After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire.

Robert - I can go on and on but I've made my point. What really irks me here is that you take statements, cherry-pick what you like within them to support your theory and call it a done day. What you are doing here is a shameful example of misinformation in order to support your ideas. That's what the FBI and SS did in the WCR. They supressed anything agains the OSwald did it conclusion and only presented info in the light of day whcih incriminated him.

I'm not sure what kind of game you're playing or why you think it important to inform seasoned researchers of the subject that there are mountains of evidence for z313 being the first shot when there actually isn't. That conclusion is only from your POV with poorly constructed arguments without corroboration or foundation.

No worries sir, I wont be bothering with you any longer if this be the example of your work and presentational ethics... we have a tough enouogh time with those who argue in favor of the WCR let alone those of our own trying to force feed us conclusion such as this.

Take care

DJ

Betzner and Willis are mistaken? Connally, Hudson, Rosemary, Truly all mistaken.

Altgens photo circa 255, mistaken

A (Bill Newman): Okay. My wife and myself were watching the parade come toward us. We had to more or less step off the curb to look up the street, and as the car was approaching I heard two shots -- BOOM, BOOM -- and when the first shot was fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating), and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President I suppose, and then the second shot was fired, and then as the car approached us to where we were standing, I could see Governor Connally leaning back in his seat holding his hands down like this (demonstrating), and at that time I could see blood on his shirt, and that is when I actually realized that it appeared, you know, he had been shot. The President all the time was staying in an upright position in his seat and it looked like he was looking into the crowd of people as if he was trying to see someone. I caught a glimpse of his eyes, just looked like a cold stare, he just looked through me, and then when the car was directly in front of me, well, that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear and his ear come off. Now, it is my opinion at the time --

[Robert Mady]

James, this thread addresses the first rifle shot heard.

If you had reviewed the SSA thread you might understand that there were 4 shots fired that day, the first one was fired (silenced shot) around Z-189 as evidenced by the reactions of READY, LANDIS, HICKEY and HILL (and BENNETT in WILLIS photograph), testimony confirms they all reacted to the sound of the first shot, this is the only time that all four agents react simultaneously.

Yes we see JFK react, he receives a minor wound at about Z-189, BUT as the poison reacts so does he.

NO one understood that JFK had been wounded including JACKIE, CONNALLYS may have, but that is another story.

Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots.
And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.

IF the first rifle shot heard was at Z-313 then the second and third followed.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Robert Mady

[James R Gordon]

Robert,

So there were shots fired before 313. I understood your position was that no shots were fired pre 313.

With regard to the Secret Service agents how can you prove that the agents looking in one direction was not security observation rather than reaction to a shot? It may be your opinion, but where is the evidence?

The idea that Jackie was wounded demonstrates a poor grasp of the facts.

James.