Paul Brancato Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The PDS link that Thomas has posted twice and referred to several times is very interesting, though in typical PDS fashion difficult to read. I think Jon posted it originally. Among other things it really clarifies the Otepka case, and makes it obvious that it wasn't a case of JfK and RFK trying to protect their hidden asset LHO from Otepka. Rather it was Otepka leaking info to Senator Eastland and his Senate internal security subcommittee in an attempt to paint JFK appointees as commies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) That's probably a little far fetched Tommy but it is interesting that when Oswald made remarks about turning over information to the Soviets...which he did in the US embassy which we know was bugged by the Soviets...should it not have triggered some sort of serious investigation of what he might have known and be turning over. Should not State have immediately gone to the Navy/Marines/ ONI. How solid is the paper trial that they took a purported defector offering information seriously? Or were those remarks just for Soviet consumption? Interestingly we know that in Mexico City in 1962, Richard Case Nagell went into the US embassy, stated he was renouncing his citizenship, that he had worked for military intelligence and that he planned to offer information to interested foreign nations...and their is no evidence that incident (which is documented in SWHT) triggered a security investigation either. Given the fact that Nagell had indeed held clearances and worked for CIC, it should have. So was that just part of another security test? Or was the State Department routinely and egregiously following down on its security responsibilities? [emphasis added by T. Graves] Larry, Didn't the Naval Attache at the US Embassy in Moscow send a cable right away, notifying ONI that Oswald had threatened to commit espionage? That would have been all ONI / CIA needed to initiate their investigations of Oswald's background and those of his Marine colleagues at El Toro. (Going from memory here. Always a dangerous thing.) What's interesting to me is that ONI kept bugging State not on the espionage issue, but on the "did he or did he not renounce his citizenship" issue. --Tommy Edited January 21, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Tommy, I following you out on the limb because I don't have Dick's book and some of the other references but the way I recall the scenario is that Oswald hit some of the normal enlisted men's bars and then his friends noted that suddenly he had enough money to be going out with one or more of the girls from the Queen Bee, not necessarily going to itself itself routinely. They wondered how he could afford her company. I'm thinking a Marine of his rank might have stood out at the Queen Bee if he spent too much time....Officers might have noticed and objected. Not sure the Queen Been was a bar in our sense but rather a Geisha house which is a good deal different. Marine enlisted go to bars, ranking officers go to private clubs ... -- again, that is all from memory which I shouldn't do but it would really be worthwhile to see what Dick has to say about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Tommy, I following you out on the limb because I don't have Dick's book and some of the other references but the way I recall the scenario is that Oswald hit some of the normal enlisted men's bars and then his friends noted that suddenly he had enough money to be going out with one or more of the girls from the Queen Bee, not necessarily going to itself itself routinely. They wondered how he could afford her company. I'm thinking a Marine of his rank might have stood out at the Queen Bee if he spent too much time....Officers might have noticed and objected. Not sure the Queen Been was a bar in our sense but rather a Geisha house which is a good deal different. Marine enlisted go to bars, ranking officers go to private clubs ... -- again, that is all from memory which I shouldn't do but it would really be worthwhile to see what Dick has to say about it... Larry, I think the important thing is that at least some of the girls who worked at the Queen Bee were suspected of being KGB agents. Oswald might have been sent there as a "dangle", to either "turn" one of those suspected KGB agents, or more likely, to pretend to be "turned" by her so that she could be fed some bad military information. --Tommy Edited January 21, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 That seems realistic enough, for all we know there could have been more than one individual being used in the same fashion. Some of the girls may have been doing it for ideology but others were just collecting for a fee. As Jon pointed out, actually what you want to do is turn some of the latter to get a line on how the network was being run....so somebody has to get into position to even make the offer. A lowly enlisted Marine might well be less suspect in such a role. And for said lowly Marine, not a bad way to liven up your tour. Oswald was always looking for something new and different and that certainly would fit. The only risk is that no doubt your buddies may take note of your considerably improved lifestyle...which some of them apparently did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) That's probably a little far fetched Tommy but it is interesting that when Oswald made remarks about turning over information to the Soviets...which he did in the US embassy which we know was bugged by the Soviets...should it not have triggered some sort of serious investigation of what he might have known and be turning over. Should not State have immediately gone to the Navy/Marines/ ONI. How solid is the paper trial that they took a purported defector offering information seriously? Or were those remarks just for Soviet consumption? Interestingly we know that in Mexico City in 1962, Richard Case Nagell went into the US embassy, stated he was renouncing his citizenship, that he had worked for military intelligence and that he planned to offer information to interested foreign nations...and their is no evidence that incident (which is documented in SWHT) triggered a security investigation either. Given the fact that Nagell had indeed held clearances and worked for CIC, it should have. So was that just part of another security test? Or was the State Department routinely and egregiously following down on its security responsibilities? [emphasis added by T. Graves] Larry, Didn't the Naval Attache at the US Embassy in Moscow send a cable right away to the chief of Naval Operations at the Pentagon, notifying it that Oswald had threatened to commit espionage? That would have been all ONI / CIA needed to initiate their investigations of Oswald's background and those of his Marine colleagues at El Toro. (Going from memory here. Always a dangerous thing.) What's interesting to me is that ONI kept bugging State not on the espionage issue (like I said, Navy already knew), but on the "did he or did he not renounce his citizenship" issue. The fact that Oswald was neither arrested on the spot in the U.S Embassy in Moscow for telling consul Richard Snyder that he had he had offered to commit espionage for the Russians once he became a Soviet citizen, nor arrested for the felony of espionage upon his return to the U.S., suggests to me that Oswald's threat was known by the U.S. Consul Richard Snyder to be a false threat, made for eavesdropping electronic ears of the KGB. --Tommy edited and bumped Edited January 21, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Tommy, I honestly don't recall.....someone needs to do the research and see if the cable did happen....and if there was any further communication between State and Navy while Oswald was in those first days in Russia. If the cable did happen then the embassy was doing its job. I don't know if the embassy personnel have any legal right to arrest anyone, although the embassy is legally US territory they would need to call on the Legate (normally and FBI officer) and pursue that. Interesting points but I surely don't know (or at least remember those details from Moscow). I can tell you after doing some research that none of that happened at all when Nagell did the same thing at the US embassy in Mexico City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 The mere fact a U.S. officer in the U.S. embassy sent a cable back to the U.S. containing a question about Oswald tells me Oswald wasn't an intelligence agent for a U.S. intelligence service in the USSR. The embassy in the USSR would have had a CIA officer. If Oswald was a CIA agent, he would have provided information to this officer or some other CIA agent. There are no facts indicating Oswald did this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Tommy, I honestly don't recall.....someone needs to do the research and see if the cable did happen....and if there was any further communication between State and Navy while Oswald was in those first days in Russia. If the cable did happen then the embassy was doing its job. I don't know if the embassy personnel have any legal right to arrest anyone, although the embassy is legally US territory they would need to call on the Legate (normally and FBI officer) and pursue that. Interesting points but I surely don't know (or at least remember those details from Moscow). I can tell you after doing some research that none of that happened at all when Nagell did the same thing at the US embassy in Mexico City. Larry, This is what Newman says about the "black hole" cable from Moscow's U.S. Embassy naval attache in Oswald and the CIA, starting on page 14: "[u.S. Consul Richard] Snyder was not the only person in Moscow sending cables to Washington about Oswald's espionage intentions. While Oswald sat in his hotel room writing his letter of protest to the embassy, the naval attache [aka "Navy Liaison"] in the embassy was also writing a confidential cable [sent Nov. 2], in this case to the chief of Naval Operations in the Pentagon. The determination that this ex-marine was no simple defector but in truth a self-declared saboteur arrived at the Navy Department the next morning, November 3, 1963. Like Snyder's October 31 cable, the naval attache's cable was very short. It invited attention to the embassy's reporting on the defections of Oswald and another ex-Navy man [Robert Edward Webster], and added only one thing: that Oswald had offered to furnish the Soviets with information on U.S. radar. (69) Whatever Oswald's thinking might or might not have been, there is little question about the thinking in Washington, D.C. It did not take long for the naval attache's cable to set off alarm bells at Navy Department. There the cable was routed by a person in the Navy Department named Hamner and checked by "RE/Hediger." (70) The meaning of the letters "RE" is not clear, but it is interesting - as we will discuss in a later chapter - that they also belong to a person connected to a very sensitive CIA monitoring operation. [Newman is referring to CI/Project/RE and HT/LINGUAL, the CIA's illegal mail-opening program; Oswald was placed on it's "watch list" consisting of only 300 people on 11/09/59]. Just twenty-seven hours after being notified that an ex-marine had stated his intent to give up radar secrets, Navy Headquarters replied to Moscow. (71) The final sentence of the navy cable underlines the importance that Washington attached to the news of Oswald's defection. The cable requested updates of developments on Oswald because of "CONTINUING INTEREST OF HQ, MARINE CORPS, AND US INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES." Centered underneath the bottom of these words were two more: "INTELLIGENCE MATTER." From the FWIW department, according to the Mary Ferrell Foundation: "On Nov 3, 1959, he [Hediger] checked Naval Message from Moscow: RE/Hediger. On 4 Nov 1959, he checked Naval Message from CNO to ALUSNA Moscow: M/Hediger. On Nov 13, 1959, he checked Naval Message from Moscow: MSG/Hediger. (In Who's Who in CIA, there is a Jean Jacques Hediger, DOB: 3/11/34, Navy Lieutenant from 1956-1959. Later served in State Department in Mexico." https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/marysdb/showRec.do?mode=searchResult&id=4698 A Spanish-language Mexican document I found on the internet says that a "Jean Jacques Heidger" became vice consul at the US Embassy in Mexico City in November, 1966. See the very bottom of page 1: http://dof.gob.mx/index.php?year=1966&month=11&day=26&print=true?print=true --Tommy Edited January 22, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Based on that it would seem to me that all groups involved were doing just what they should do.....as I've noted earlier, the real issue of Oswald's radar knowledge that was a concern was his knowledge of the designated air control routes and related designations and practices on the West Coast, something he had personal experience with.... I just can't see any point to the ONI sending Oswald into Russia and then have him make a statement that would ring all the alarm bells, making lots of things more difficult including communicating with him inside Russia. Makes no sense. The only wild card would be if it were some sort of planned independent Naval intel action to follow up on the Webster incident ...which Simpich discusses at length. Just way too complex for good, low profile intelligence work as I understand it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Larry Hancock @ post #205: Agree. Oswald had nothing to offer to the KGB. He had no access to information the CIA wanted. Oswald was an odd duck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Based on that it would seem to me that all groups involved were doing just what they should do.....as I've noted earlier, the real issue of Oswald's radar knowledge that was a concern was his knowledge of the designated air control routes and related designations and practices on the West Coast, something he had personal experience with.... I just can't see any point to the ONI sending Oswald into Russia and then have him make a statement that would ring all the alarm bells, making lots of things more difficult including communicating with him inside Russia. Makes no sense. The only wild card would be if it were some sort of planned independent Naval intel action to follow up on the Webster incident ...which Simpich discusses at length. Just way too complex for good, low profile intelligence work as I understand it... Thanks for the feedback, Larry. I don't have any answers. I'm just throwing stuff out there for other researchers' and students' consideration and feedback. Along that line, it's interesting to note that on page 43, Newman says that "In [Gary Francis] Powers view, Oswald's work with the new MPS-16 height-finding radar looms large." Newman wrote on page 46: " Whether or not the CIA investigated the damage that Oswald had done to the U-2 program, the point is that the Agency could presume that the KGB would be interested in Oswald's U-2 knowledge, Clearly, Oswald thought he had something of 'special interest.' According to information from the Soviets [written about by Norman Mailer in Oswald's Ghost ], Oswald said he was 'prepared to something something of interest. He knew about airplanes; he mentioned something about devices.' " [emphasis added] According to Oswald's former commanding officer at El Toro (Donovan), not only had Oswald been schooled on the new MPS-16 height-finding device, but he had also been schooled on a device which protected radar installations from homing missiles, the TPX-1. (see page 44) --Tommy Edited January 22, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Tommy, I do recall that one of the concerns expressed in the WC inquiry was that Oswald did know the capabilities and range of the American radars .....there seems to be some confusion on that point because the traffic control radars Oswald was working with were far different than the long range surveillance radars but certainly the Soviets might have been interested in that sort of information ...it would have gone along with any West Coast flight corridor or other control info Oswald would have had. As to Powers, its hard to think that Powers didn't know that the Soviets knew exactly how high and were the U2's were flying since they routinely sent interceptors after them and the interceptors tried to attack from their own max altitudes. However the details NSA was picking up from monitoring Soviet military comm were very likely compartmentalized from the U2 pilots. As to devices, could have had something to do with the friend or foe transponder devices or any of the comm devices on Marine aircraft, hard to guess at that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Based on that it would seem to me that all groups involved were doing just what they should do.....as I've noted earlier, the real issue of Oswald's radar knowledge that was a concern was his knowledge of the designated air control routes and related designations and practices on the West Coast, something he had personal experience with.... I just can't see any point to the ONI sending Oswald into Russia and then have him make a statement that would ring all the alarm bells, making lots of things more difficult including communicating with him inside Russia. Makes no sense. The only wild card would be if it were some sort of planned independent Naval intel action to follow up on the Webster incident ...which Simpich discusses at length. Just way too complex for good, low profile intelligence work as I understand it... Thanks for the feedback, Larry. I don't have any answers. I'm just throwing stuff out there for other researchers' and students' consideration and feedback. Along that line, it's interesting to note that on page 43, Newman says that "In [Gary Francis] Powers view, Oswald's work with the new MPS-16 height-finding radar looms large." Newman wrote on page 46: " Whether or not the CIA investigated the damage that Oswald had done to the U-2 program, the point is that the Agency could presume that the KGB would be interested in Oswald's U-2 knowledge, Clearly, Oswald thought he had something of 'special interest.' According to information from the Soviets [written about by Norman Mailer in Oswald's Ghost ], Oswald said he was 'prepared to something of interest. He knew about airplanes; he mentioned something about devices.' " [emphasis added] According to Oswald's former commanding officer at El Toro (Donovan), not only had Oswald been schooled on the new MPS-16 height-finding device, but he had also been schooled on a device which protected radar installations from homing missiles, the TPX-1. (see page 44) --Tommy edited and bumped I did a little more re-reading of those pages in Oswald and the CIA and was able to find the two "devices" Oswald was familiar with from his Marine Corps active duty days, the MPS-16 and the TPX-1. See the edited post. But I think the most important point Newman is making in this chapter of the book is that when Oswald defected, "the CIA could presume that the Soviets would be interested in his U-2 knowledge." In the context of what kind of "U-2 knowledge" the Soviets could be reasonably expected by the CIA to be interested in in late 1959, I think it's reasonable to include Oswald's knowledge of these two radar-related and (especially in the case of the MPS-16) U2 - related "devices". I think it's also important to remember that Oswald had personally monitored, on radar, the flying of a U-2 over China, which apparently was a big surprise to his immediate Marine Corps superiors and co-workers at the time... Edited January 22, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Tommy, those devices are nothing more than radar sets, a quick qoogle on the numbers and radar will give you the details of each. They had nothing to do with the U2 project As to Oswald seeing a U2 over China, just not possible, it took the underpowered U2 hours to reach mission height, which it did with a series of rising ellipses as I recall. Oswald was working a relatively short range approach control radar at Atsuki, I'm just guessing but no more than 100 to 200 miles at best and with a limited height finder was well. I suppose he might have seen a U2 take off to the west but that's about it. And if you check into the books I referenced earlier you will find that U2 missions over China were no big secret either. As usual I recommend reading a lot more broadly than what is in the routine JFK literature. In any event, anything to do with the U2 would be CIA, certainly nothing to do with ONI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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