For Cliff Varnell: Where did the Bullet in JFK's Back go?

[Robert Prudhomme]

You don't get it, Cliff. You can't say JFK was shot in the throat, simply because Bennett hears a shot. What kind of logic is that?

Can you name any other witnesses who heard back to back shots at z202?

[Cliff Varnell]

SSSA Glenn Bennett's contemporaneous notes:

...The Presidents auto moved down a slight grade and the crowd was very sparse.

At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded of a firecracker. Immediately

upon hearing the so called firecracker, looked at the Boss's car. At this exact time I

saw a shot that hit the Boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder; a second

shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head.

This sequence matches the WC testimony of Linda Willis (emphasis added):

(quote on)

Mr. Liebler: Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade

came past you there?

Ms. Willis: Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two

real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to

the people, and he grabbed at his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then

I couldn't tell where the second shot went.

(quote off)

Throat shot first, then a pause, then back-shot and head shot in quick succession.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

You don't get it, Cliff. You can't say JFK was shot in the throat, simply because Bennett hears a shot. What kind of logic is that?

You refuse to follow his testimony and the photos?

I've laid out the sequence above. You can pretend otherwise all you want.

Can you name any other witnesses who heard back to back shots at z202?

What are you talking about?

Are you following any of this?

The first shot was at Z190, Willis 5 was shot at 202 in startle response to gunfire.

Then there was a pause as per Linda Willis. Bennett said when he turned face forward he saw the back shot and then the head shot in quick succession.

Algens 6 shows Bennett's features blurred at Z255. JFK was shot in the back after Z255.

You can't process this stuff, Robert?

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

Here's Bennett's official statement.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0387b.htm

He stated he was facing the crowd on the right, consistent with Willis 5, then he turned to the front in time to see JFK shot in the back, consistent with his blurry features in Altgens 6.

Between Z186 and Z255 the witness statements and the photos match.

[Cliff Varnell]

WC testimony of Nellie Connally:

(quote on, emphasis added)

Mrs. Connally:...I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was

a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder

and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over

gripping your own neck?

Mrs. Connally: Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry.

I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and

he just sort of slumped down.

(quote off)

WC testimony of SSSA Clint Hill:

(quote on, emphasis added)

Mr. Specter: Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. Hill: We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9...Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left...

(quote off)

Grabbing at the neck tie while holding a hand in front of the mouth is consistent with this testimony.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Mrs. Connally:...I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was

a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder

and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over

gripping your own neck?"

But Cliff, we know, from examining the Z film, that Nellie was mistaken and JFK was not actually gripping his own neck, no matter how much Specter was attempting to lead this witness.

Quoting witnesses that were behind JFK is rather pointless, as they could see his arms up near his throat, but had no idea what he was doing.

Have you ever seen anyone in respiratory distress from a lung injury?

[Cliff Varnell]

dupe

Edited January 3, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

"Mrs. Connally:...I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was

a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder

and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over

gripping your own neck?"

But Cliff, we know, from examining the Z film, that Nellie was mistaken and JFK was not actually gripping his own neck, no matter how much Specter was attempting to lead this witness.

Grabbing at his neck-tie would appear the same as grabbing at his neck.

Quoting witnesses that were behind JFK is rather pointless, as they could see his arms up near his throat, but had no idea what he was doing.

So you admit he had his hands in the vicinity of his throat. And yet you say there was no evidence of injury to the throat.

Go figure.

Have you ever seen anyone in respiratory distress from a lung injury?

So Bennett didn't see JFK shot in the back? He described the strike as "about 4 inches down the right shoulder."

Bullet holes in the clothes: 4 inches below the bottoms of the collars.

Bennett nailed it. But he wasn't facing forward until after Z255.

[Cliff Varnell]

Hi Cliff

You said this belonged in its own thread, so here it is.

If the bullet entered JFK's back at the level of thoracic vertebra T3, what became of the bullet?

Robert, there are only 3 conspiracy theories in the entire case that are worth a damn.

All 3 of those theories were rendered within 24 hours or so of JFK's murder.

This is one...

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's 1978 sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

(quote off)

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's 1978 sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

(quote off)

The other 2 in chronological order, plus Col. William Corson's conspiracy theory regarding the murder of the Ngo Bros.

in So Viet 3 weeks before JFK 's demise.

2. Military journalist Gary Underhill to a friend the night of 11/22/63.

From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

(quote on)

When [Gary] Underhill arrived at his friends', Robert and Charlene Fitzsimmons, home in New York City, it was late

and he was excited and scared. The couple was preparing for a trip to Europe and Robert was already asleep. Underhill

spoke with Charlene (Charley) Fitzsimmons at length while she continued packing for the trip.

Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique dealing with weapons and

gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was mentioned, supposedly

the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed that these individuals

had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and was about to move against

them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was aware of their dealings and

that his own life could well be in jeopardy.

(quote off)

3. The deep political intuition of Vincent Salandria and Harold Feldman.

(quote on)

I explained that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman.

We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the

assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the

assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot.

Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot.

We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth.

In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.

(quote off)

"Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter," by Vincent Salandria.

http://politicalassassinations.com/2012/11/1560/

4. William Corson's contemporaneous analysis of the overthrow and murder of the Ngo brothers in So Vietnam.

From Joseph Trento's Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5:

(quote on)

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing

has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools

and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy

immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he

came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his

brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long

public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full

confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963,

according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it,

“Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor,

was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about

Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his

replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer,

John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role

has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge

for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

(quote off)

Edited January 2, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Jon G. Tidd]

comment deleted

Edited January 3, 2015 by Jon G. Tidd

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here's Bennett's official statement.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0387b.htm

He stated he was facing the crowd on the right, consistent with Willis 5, then he turned to the front in time to see JFK shot in the back, consistent with his blurry features in Altgens 6.

Between Z186 and Z255 the witness statements and the photos match.

Right. And this is your iron clad evidence that JFK had a bullet wound in his throat. Remind me not to hire you as a defense lawyer.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Cliff

You said this belonged in its own thread, so here it is.

If the bullet entered JFK's back at the level of thoracic vertebra T3, what became of the bullet?

Robert, there are only 3 conspiracy theories in the entire case that are worth a damn.

All 3 of those theories were rendered within 24 hours or so of JFK's murder.

This is one...

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's 1978 sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

(quote off)

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's 1978 sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

(quote off)

The other 2 in chronological order, plus Col. William Corson's conspiracy theory regarding the murder of the Ngo Bros.

in So Viet 3 weeks before JFK 's demise.

2. Military journalist Gary Underhill to a friend the night of 11/22/63.

From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

(quote on)

When [Gary] Underhill arrived at his friends', Robert and Charlene Fitzsimmons, home in New York City, it was late

and he was excited and scared. The couple was preparing for a trip to Europe and Robert was already asleep. Underhill

spoke with Charlene (Charley) Fitzsimmons at length while she continued packing for the trip.

Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique dealing with weapons and

gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was mentioned, supposedly

the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed that these individuals

had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and was about to move against

them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was aware of their dealings and

that his own life could well be in jeopardy.

(quote off)

3. The deep political intuition of Vincent Salandria and Harold Feldman.

(quote on)

I explained that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman.

We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the

assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the

assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot.

Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot.

We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth.

In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.

(quote off)

"Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter," by Vincent Salandria.

http://politicalassassinations.com/2012/11/1560/

4. William Corson's contemporaneous analysis of the overthrow and murder of the Ngo brothers in So Vietnam.

From Joseph Trento's Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5:

(quote on)

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing

has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools

and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy

immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he

came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his

brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long

public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full

confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963,

according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it,

“Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor,

was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about

Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his

replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer,

John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role

has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge

for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

(quote off)

And what does this post have to do with anything?

[Cliff Varnell]

Hi Cliff

You said this belonged in its own thread, so here it is.

If the bullet entered JFK's back at the level of thoracic vertebra T3, what became of the bullet?

Robert, there are only 3 conspiracy theories in the entire case that are worth a damn.

All 3 of those theories were rendered within 24 hours or so of JFK's murder.

This is one...

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's 1978 sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

(quote off)

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's 1978 sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

(quote off)

The other 2 in chronological order, plus Col. William Corson's conspiracy theory regarding the murder of the Ngo Bros.

in So Viet 3 weeks before JFK 's demise.

2. Military journalist Gary Underhill to a friend the night of 11/22/63.

From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

(quote on)

When [Gary] Underhill arrived at his friends', Robert and Charlene Fitzsimmons, home in New York City, it was late

and he was excited and scared. The couple was preparing for a trip to Europe and Robert was already asleep. Underhill

spoke with Charlene (Charley) Fitzsimmons at length while she continued packing for the trip.

Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique dealing with weapons and

gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was mentioned, supposedly

the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed that these individuals

had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and was about to move against

them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was aware of their dealings and

that his own life could well be in jeopardy.

(quote off)

3. The deep political intuition of Vincent Salandria and Harold Feldman.

(quote on)

I explained that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman.

We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the

assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the

assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot.

Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot.

We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth.

In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.

(quote off)

"Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter," by Vincent Salandria.

http://politicalassassinations.com/2012/11/1560/

4. William Corson's contemporaneous analysis of the overthrow and murder of the Ngo brothers in So Vietnam.

From Joseph Trento's Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5:

(quote on)

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing

has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools

and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy

immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he

came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his

brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long

public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full

confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963,

according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it,

“Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor,

was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about

Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his

replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer,

John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role

has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge

for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

(quote off)

And what does this post have to do with anything?

Has to do with everything, as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe you should think twice before you put someone's name in the header, Robert.

That someone might think the evidence connects everything together.

In which case you get more than you bargained for.

[Cliff Varnell]

Here's Bennett's official statement.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0387b.htm

He stated he was facing the crowd on the right, consistent with Willis 5, then he turned to the front in time to see JFK shot in the back, consistent with his blurry features in Altgens 6.

Between Z186 and Z255 the witness statements and the photos match.

Right. And this is your iron clad evidence that JFK had a bullet wound in his throat. Remind me not to hire you as a defense lawyer.

It's evidence the first shot was the throat shot.

You claim against all evidence the first shot hit him in the back.

The witness statements and the photos show otherwise.

I know losing a Pet Theory is traumatic, Robert, but you need to move on...

[Robert Prudhomme]

Cliff

You have not shown one single piece of incontrovertible evidence to prove that JFK had a bullet wound (exit or entrance) in his throat prior to Z313.

Look at this:

See the rather large opening in the inferior portion of the occipital bone, at the base of the skull? Do you not think it possible for a fragment of a bullet that entered the right rear of JFK's skull to pass through this opening and exit JFK's throat? Remember the description of the throat wound as being 3-5 mm? The Carcano bullet had a diameter of 6.77 mm.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme