For Cliff Varnell: Where did the Bullet in JFK's Back go?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Jon

Take a look at these three diagrams showing the top two cervical vertabrae, C1 and C2, positioned below the foramen magnum opening.

As seen, C1 and C2 are also referred to as the "atlas" and "axis". It is clearly demonstrated here that the base of the skull and C1 vertebra are not a tight fit but, instead, are connected across the gap between them by membranes, and there should be sufficient space between them to allow a bullet fragment to pass. How tough these membranes are, I do not know, but I imagine they would offer far less resistance than the bone of a vertebra. Of course, this is not to say the fragment didn't strike C1 a glancing blow as it made its way to JFK's trachea.

[Cliff Varnell]

Let me see if I have this right. The bullet (or whatever you call it) enters the throat, passing through the outer part of the right side of the trachea, passes just outside of the tip of the C7 transverse process, grazes the top of the T1 transverse process, and then what? Your arrow stops at T1. Does the projectile exit, or stay there? What becomes of it?

P.S.

Precisely what weapon would shoot this projectile, and what is your estimate of this projectile's muzzle velocity?

You can read all about it here.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

[Robert Prudhomme]

I read the whole thing, Cliff; twice, in fact.

Not ONE word about the effective range of a dart launcher, not ONE word about the muzzle velocity of such a launcher, absolutely NOTHING about what becomes of the dart once it enters its victim, although Dr. Senseny did testify the original cartridges became stuck in the launcher, and had to be replaced with platinum cartridges.

Do you think a platinum dart would dissolve inside of a wound?

[Cliff Varnell]

I read the whole thing, Cliff; twice, in fact.

Good!

Now read this:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_1_Colby.pdf

The money quote:

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Have you brought with you some of those devices which would have enabled the CIA

to use this poison for killing people?

Mr. COLBY: We have, indeed.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Does this pistol fire the dart?

Mr. COLBY: Yes, it does, Mr. Chairman. The round thing at the top is obviously the sight,

The rest of it is what is practically a normal .45, although it is a special. However, it works by

electricity. There is a battery in the handle, and it fires a small dart.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: So that when it fires, it fires silently?

Mr. COLBY: Almost silently; yes.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: What range does it have?

Mr. COLBY: One hundred meters, I believe; about 100 yards, 100 meters.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: About 100 meters range?

Mr. COLBY: Yes.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: And the dart itself, when it strikes the target, does the target know that he has been hit and about to die?

Mr. COLBY: That depends, Mr. Chairman, on the particular dart used. There are different kinds of these flechettes that were used in various weapons systems, and a special one was developed which potentially would be able to enter the target without perception.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: And did you find such darts in the laboratory?

Mr. COLBY: We did.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Is it not true, too, that the effort not only involved designing a gun that could strike at a human target without knowledge of the person who had been struck, but the toxin itself would not appear in the autopsy?

Mr. COLBY: Well, there was an attempt—

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Or the dart.

Mr. COLBY: Yes; so there was no way of perceiving that the target was hit.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: As a murder instrument, that is about as efficient as you can get, is it not?

Mr. COLBY: It is a weapon, a very serious weapon.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Robert Prudhomme]

One hundred yards is the range, and means it will not go further than that. My .308 calibre rifle has a range of a few miles. Are you seriously trying to tell me someone is going to try to hit JFK at z190 from the Grassy Knoll with this electric pop gun?

Why do you think it is we go to all the trouble of using rifles to hunt deer, instead of just using handguns?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Cliff Varnell]

One hundred yards is the range, and means it will not go further than that. My .308 calibre rifle has a range of a few miles. Are you seriously trying to tell me someone is going to try to hit JFK at z190 from the Grassy Knoll with this electric pop gun?

Black Dog Man, behind the concrete wall.

Why do you think it is we go to all the trouble of using rifles to hunt deer, instead of just using handguns?

Scorpions paralyze their prey before moving in for the kill.

First-shot/kill-shot was not 100% guaranteed.

[Robert Mady]

Robert, why are you interpreting the range of the weapon to be 100 yards, this could just as easily be 100 yards with effective accuracy. Plus it was less than 50 yards from the limo to the end of the fence where the dart may have been fired, well within the 100 yard range.

Also what is being demonstrated is technology they were willing to release, do you also imagine that this was this was the pinnacle of the technology invented?

You are very resistant to evidence, I have provided proof that the first shot at ~Z-189 came from the front as evidenced by G NEWMAN, W NEWMAN and LANDIS, READY, HICKEY BENNETT and HILLs reactions to look toward the gk, that this first shot did not have a sound associated with it that was a rifle shot, no other witnesses in DP recorded hearing this noise.

No one in DP understood that the President had been wounded by this shot, ie no one comprehended KENNEDY had a hole in his throat as a result of this shot.

Do you have a way to explain why KENNEDY became immobilized after being wounded in Z-189, can a shot to the back explain his lack of reactions.

The Parkland doctors did not claim the hole in KENNEDYS throat was an exit wound, they claimed it was an entrance wound, the WC posed a question to each speculating if it could possibly have been an exit wound. Don't revise history.

There is no evidence of a back wound having occurred during the assassination, other than BENNETT's statement, but if you take his statement at face value then you must also be able to explain why he failed to react? The SSA lied, they all lied, this must be taken into account that there is very little corroboration between their testimonies.

The conspirators punched a hole into KENNEDYS back prior to autopsy, this hole had to be made somehow, the question is how and what damage would it have done to the area and surrounding areas. To be convincing the hole would have to resemble a bullet hole, made by a device that could create a hole and damage flesh in the same manner of a high speed projectile.

Doug Horne claims there was no bullet fragments in JFKS body found on x-rays.

You provided evidence that the organs of JFKS body had been removed, there is no way to really identify if any damage to the lung was real or contrived.

You have no idea what damage the front shot caused because the throat wound was never examined, also the throat wound was mutilated prior to autopsy, probably to obscure the entrance wound and to retrieve whatever penetrated JFKS throat.

You theories are interesting but lack foundation and seem to be resistant to significant evidences.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Robert Mady]

Robert, the first shot as Cliff pointed out was not guaranteed, but the conspirators also had a second problem, JFK had to also have a fatal wound inflicted otherwise the poison dart might have to be eventually explained or have a plausible explanation as to why KENNEDY just died and coincidentally had a hole in his throat.

They also had a script and that script was to cause a wound that could be perceived as fatal, kill YARBOROUGH (man in front of KENNEDY) in the process having fired three rifle shots.

The assassination was carefully scripted, they would not have done this on the fly.

And yes, compelling evidence points to a shot coming from behind the concrete wall using a silent weapon which fired a projectile with a toxin that immobilized KENNEDY or maybe would have caused his death.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Jon G. Tidd]

Robert Mady @ post #82:

There always seem to have been two incontrovertible wounds: the wound in the throat and the wound in the back. Of these, the wound in the throat has puzzled me most.

If it was caused by a rifle shot from the front, I have to wonder why would someone take such a dangerous shot. Dangerous that is in possibly exposing a conspiracy. Of course, if the fix was in, the shooters may have been given a relatively free hand.

The idea it was caused by a dart, perhaps a paralyzing dart, fired from a gas=powered rifle appeals to my sense of how professional shooters might have wanted to set up and fix their target. Yet I'm bothered by the thought that from the shooters' standpoint, everything hinged on an initial shot from a gas-powered weapon. That doesn't seem to me to be a very sound plan, unless it was Plan A and there existed back-up plans. I could be completely out to lunch, however, being unaware as I am of the capabilities of high-end gas-powered weapons (especially in accuracy) in 1963.

[Robert Mady]

Robert, what evidence is there for existence of the back wound prior to the autopsy?

[Robert Mady]

Jon, I don't know why they would have chanced the shot from the front other than to say it must have figured to be a very high percentage shot, in other words they felt very strongly that it was a shot that was imperative to take and that it had a high expectation of success.

The shooters may have practiced each shot for as long as it took to become completely proficient at making the shots.

I don't believe they did anything that was not solidly and thoroughly thought out and then practiced beforehand.

The toxin that entered KENNEDY from the throat wound may have been sufficient to eventually kill him, this may have been reason enough to take the shot.

Keep in mind the shot at Z-189 was taken when the limo had just made the turn onto Elm, the limo was moving relatively slowly, unless one believes GREER and KELLERMAN were complicit in the murder of the President there would have been no guarantee that GREER would not have been accelerating the limo rapidly after the turn and by the time it reached the mark at Z-313 it could have been traveling too rapidly to make an accurate shot. The bonus to the conspirators was the fact that KENNEDY appeared to be in distress which caused GREER and KELLERMAN to turn to see what the problem was, this action slowed the limo, when CONNALLY laid back on top of NELLIE, GREER slowed even more to allow HILL to transfer to the limo to determine what was going on in the back seats. As HILL was running to the limo is when the first rifle shot occurred, causing the fatal head wound, GREER may have slowed even more, partly in surprise partly to allow HILL to get to a position to protect the President.

[Cliff Varnell]

Robert, why are you interpreting the range of the weapon to be 100 yards, this could just as easily be 100 yards with effective accuracy. Plus it was less than 50 yards from the limo to the end of the fence where the dart may have been fired, well within the 100 yard range.

Also what is being demonstrated is technology they were willing to release, do you also imagine that this was this was the pinnacle of the technology invented?

You are very resistant to evidence, I have provided proof that the first shot at ~Z-189 came from the front as evidenced by G NEWMAN, W NEWMAN and LANDIS, READY, HICKEY BENNETT and HILLs reactions to look toward the gk, that this first shot did not have a sound associated with it that was a rifle shot, no other witnesses in DP recorded hearing this noise.

No one in DP understood that the President had been wounded by this shot, ie no one comprehended KENNEDY had a hole in his throat as a result of this shot.

Do you have a way to explain why KENNEDY became immobilized after being wounded in Z-189, can a shot to the back explain his lack of reactions.

The Parkland doctors did not claim the hole in KENNEDYS throat was an exit wound, they claimed it was an entrance wound, the WC posed a question to each speculating if it could possibly have been an exit wound. Don't revise history.

There is no evidence of a back wound having occurred during the assassination, other than BENNETT's statement, but if you take his statement at face value then you must also be able to explain why he failed to react?

Bennett sat in the back seat of the follow-up car.

How was he supposed to react given the number of agents who were standing on the side-board?

The SSA lied, they all lied, this must be taken into account that there is very little corroboration between their testimonies.

The conspirators punched a hole into KENNEDYS back prior to autopsy,

Bennett wrote up the back wound "about 4 inches down from the right shoulder" hours before the autopsy.

The deed had to have been done on AF1. They had to re-dress the corpse and then terribly misplace the wound.

Why did they punch a hole in the back too low to have been associated with the throat wound?

For such a precise, planned out operation they screwed the pooch on that one...

this hole had to be made somehow, the question is how and what damage would it have done to the area and surrounding areas. To be convincing the hole would have to resemble a bullet hole, made by a device that could create a hole and damage flesh in the same manner of a high speed projectile.

Doug Horne claims there was no bullet fragments in JFKS body found on x-rays.

You provided evidence that the organs of JFKS body had been removed, there is no way to really identify if any damage to the lung was real or contrived.

You have no idea what damage the front shot caused because the throat wound was never examined, also the throat wound was mutilated prior to autopsy, probably to obscure the entrance wound and to retrieve whatever penetrated JFKS throat.

You theories are interesting but lack foundation and seem to be resistant to significant evidences.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Robert Mady]

Cliff, the throat wound was to be ignored, remember the first official story of the assassination was the first shot was a short shot and hit KENNEDY in the back, resulting in a 'pristine' bullet falling out of the shallow wound onto the gurney at the hospital, the second shot wounded CONNALLY and the third shot causing the fatal head wound.

Remember JC'S testimony to the nation on 11/27/1963 where he looked into the camera and claimed that KENNEDY was wounded by the first rifle shot, CONNALLY turned and observed KENNEDY was wounded, then CONNALLY was wounded and then KENNEDY received the fatal head wound.

Three shots three hits.

It wasn't until later when it became essential to explain TAGUE that they would have to explain the assassination with two bullets. Then the neck wound became essential to be recognized as real because the back wound had already been officially announced as real, they now required the throat wound to explain the path the bullet took.

A plan can't be guaranteed, there has to be contingency plans to account for unknowns, how could they have determined immediately following the assassination that TAGUE, with a scratch on his chin would become essential to explain as a part of the assassination?

BENNETT claimed he heard the first shot and reacted by looking toward the President, BENNETT claimed he heard the second shot and actually observed KENNEDY be wounded, BENNETT in A6 can be seen to react by looking to the rear, why would he be looing to the rear after hearing 2 shots and seeing KENNEDY wounded and do nothing more than look to the rear?

Why didn't BENNETT alert the rest of the team? Then BENNETT faces forward in time to see KENNEDY struck in the head.

BENNETT is lying, along with the other SSA, if they had told the American public the truth the WC could not have created lies to cover-up.

BENNETT did not stand down, nor did any member of the SSA that day.

The first shot was silent, some of them heard it but failed to understand it was a threat.

When the first rifle shot was fired at Z-313 they all reacted. BENNETT grabbing a rifle to defend the President. The SSA assigned to the VP reacted after the first rifle shot at Z-313, this is why there is no visible response from any agent in A6, because a rifle shot had not yet occurred.

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff, the throat wound was to be ignored,

Even after several people at Parkland saw the wound?

How could they plan on keeping the throat wound unknown?

It was J Edgar who ignored the throat wound...and Tague.

remember the first official story of the assassination was the first shot was a short shot and hit KENNEDY in the back, resulting in a 'pristine' bullet falling out of the shallow wound onto the gurney at the hospital, the second shot wounded CONNALLY and the third shot causing the fatal head wound.

Remember JC'S testimony to the nation on 11/27/1963 where he looked into the camera and claimed that KENNEDY was wounded by the first rifle shot, CONNALLY turned and observed KENNEDY was wounded, then CONNALLY was wounded and then KENNEDY received the fatal head wound.

Three shots three hits.

It wasn't until later when it became essential to explain TAGUE that they would have to explain the assassination with two bullets. Then the neck wound became essential to be recognized as real because the back wound had already been officially announced as real, they now required the throat wound to explain the path the bullet took.

So why didn't they put the back wound in a location to associate it with the throat wound, which they knew existed?

They had to plan for the contingency the Parkland personnel made the throat wound known.

A plan can't be guaranteed, there has to be contingency plans to account for unknowns, how could they have determined immediately following the assassination that TAGUE, with a scratch on his chin would become essential to explain as a part of the assassination?

BENNETT claimed he heard the first shot and reacted by looking toward the President, BENNETT claimed he heard the second shot and actually observed KENNEDY be wounded, BENNETT in A6 can be seen to react by looking to the rear, why would he be looing to the rear after hearing 2 shots and seeing KENNEDY wounded and do nothing more than look to the rear?

Bennett's features are blurred in Altgens 6. He was in the process of turning to face the front.

Why didn't BENNETT alert the rest of the team?

Alert them to a firecracker?

Then BENNETT faces forward in time to see KENNEDY struck in the head.

He faced forward in time to accurately describe the back wound and the head wound occurring in rapid succession.

BENNETT is lying, along with the other SSA, if they had told the American public the truth the WC could not have created lies to cover-up.

BENNETT did not stand down, nor did any member of the SSA that day.

The first shot was silent, some of them heard it but failed to understand it was a threat.

So you're going to accuse Bennett of being one of the plot's masterminds, since he wrote of the back wound at 5 o'clock?

When the first rifle shot was fired at Z-313 they all reacted. BENNETT grabbing a rifle to defend the President. The SSA assigned to the VP reacted after the first rifle shot at Z-313, this is why there is no visible response from any agent in A6, because a rifle shot had not yet occurred.

[Robert Mady]

Cliff, would you mind explaining what you believe occurred during the assassination?

Also I would be curious to know what you believe the chain of evidence is to prove beyond doubt that BENNETT completed and submitted his report at 5:00 on 11/22/1963?

There is no proof the back wound was created on AF1, Doug Horne has uncovered evidence that two caskets arrived at Bethesda on 11/22/1963, it appears the alterations to JFK was accomplished at Bethesda just prior to the autopsy. JFKs body was removed from casket on AF1 and placed in a body bag.

As far as I know the existence of a back wound was only recorded by BENNETT and BURKLEY.