Brad Milch Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Robert Prudhomme said: 'So, here is the question. At 307 feet, at a downward angle of 15°, with the follow up car right on the bumper of the limo and uphill from the limo at a 3.13° slope, would a sniper on the 6th floor SE corner of the TSBD be able to see JFK through all the SS agents? How would it look at 265 feet?' The SS/FBI/WC avoided showing the public how this looked by omitting the SS follow-up car & stand-ins for the agents in their re-enactments (beginning the week after the assassination & continuing into the publishing of the WC Report & supporting volumes). This distortion of history continued with MSM TV specials selling the WC & HSCA explanations of the crime. This critical omission tells the public something is wrong with the government's version of events. It's like a used car salesman focusing a customer's attention on a car's interior & not on the puddle of leaking transmission fluid underneath the vehicle. Or focusing on the Challenger & not the fuel tank with the two external lift rockets. Or demonstrating a hunter in a tree desiring to shoot an impala as a lion chases it down a hill away from the hunter & leaving out the lion. The hunter has an unobstructed line of sight to the impala with the lion gone. The car may seem to be a good transportation investment if the leaking transmission is not noticed. The Challenger may have seemed to blow up on its own if the external fuel tank & rocker boosters had not been studied & analyzed. As I said before, this 'con-job' really becomes evident when one visits the site in Dealey Plaza & performs the simple 'country boy science' experiment a couple friends & I performed in the early '70's, mimicking the two vehicles & passengers at the Z-313 location on Elm Street while trying to see the lower portion of the 'sniper's nest' window. None of us could see the window after trying a variety of body configurations while trying to be as historically accurate to the conditions of Nov 22, 1963 as we could with limited tools to work with. If we could see the problem, so could those experts that initially investigated it (we reasoned). All of the researchers & participants involved in this thread clearly demonstrate with science, math & weaponry facts & statistics just how the public has been deprived for 51 years of a truthful account of the ambush of President Kennedy, John Connally & the wounding of James Tague in the process. If the Nobel Peace Prize folks award prizes for humanitarian truth seeking efforts, all of you are winners IMHO. BM Edited February 6, 2015 by Brad Milch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Hi Brad It has been fairly easy to plot the angles and position of the limo so far, as everything we are discussing is static; unless someone moved the TSBD sometime in the last 51 years. The hard part now is going to be determining the elevation of JFK and the limo, the elevation of the follow up car and the agents in it and precisely how far the follow up car was from the limo. If we can plot these locations, we should be able to draw a trajectory from the 6th floor window, lining everything up laterally, that will also tell us if a shooter could have "shot around" the SS agents, as some WC defenders have claimed is possible. Sometimes, I do not think this problem is as difficult as it looks. While the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD is blocked off from the public, the Dal-Tex Building (or whatever it is called now) is still open to the public. If one plotted the trajectory from the nipper's Nest window to the limo at z313 backwards it might, with a bit of luck, come out at an upper floor window of the DTB. See what I mean? Rent a couple of cars similar in height to the limo and followup car, and do our own re-enactment, and scope the whole thing from the DTB. Edited February 6, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Robert, its been a while since I was there but at that time it was only the so called "snipers" window that was blocked off on the Sixth floor. You could still stand one set of windows to the right of that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) I guess you could at that, Larry. Of course, it would require some mathematical adjustment, both laterally and vertically, to the results you obtained. The nice thing about looking from the Sniper's Nest window, or from a corresponding location in the Dal-Tex Building, is it would be obvious to the naked eye whether or not Oswald could have seen JFK at the z313 position, or at the FBI's 20/01/64 (CD 298) position for the head shot, some 307 yards from the SN. Another thing to think about. By the time we got the Lincoln and the Caddy set up on Elm St. and were making plans to view the whole thing from the second window, I'll bet Gary Mack's security goons would be hustling us out of the building, and something tells me we would not be invited back. Right, Gary? Edited February 6, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Well while Gary and I most often disagree, but we do trade messages and I could ask him for a contact. I'm not sure that with his position it might not be someone else making the call...,.but you never know. If you were willing to do it after their normal hours.... If its a simple matter of making measurements and or photographing a recreation perhaps they would. After all you are going to have to pick a time when traffic allows it. Might be easier to get into the Dal Tex, I don't know what's on that floor these days, I've been in a few times but that was normally on the weekend and all the offices were closed. If you really get into it you might want to be in touch with Jerry Dealey, he is extremely familiar with the TSBD and the buildings in the Plaza. I do remember that someone actually did laser measurements on angles from the DalTex a few years ago so they were able to get into the building after hours. Don't recall who but someone here might... Edited February 6, 2015 by Larry Hancock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Milch Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) The fact that Larry, Robert Prudhomme & others involved in this thread are addressing if a shot to JFK's head originating from the TSBD 'sniper's nest' window was possible or not is encouraging to those new to the case or following it since it began 51 years ago. It signals years of global questions & doubts may eventually be answered. As Robert Prudhomme noted, Elm Street, the TSBD & Dal-Tex are all still there in Dealey Plaza. What was skipped over in initial Federal investigations & MSM TV specials supporting them can still be addressed. Replicas of the JFK touring car & the Queen Mary Cadillac exist. Additional replicas can be built. A historically accurate & honest re-enactment can still be done. I believe the public will evaluate the results fairly & intelligently if those results indicate a shooter had a line of sight to JFK's head from the sniper's nest at Z-313 or not. Was it possible or impossible is what the public wants to know. When the 3 younger 'country boys' tried their own re-enactment at the Z-313 location on Elm Street (not marked with a street X at the time) in the early 1970's we walked away from the experience believing the WC's version of the ambush was a fraud. We believed at the time (and still do) that while JFK could have been shot in the head from the TSBD sniper's nest when his car was closer to that building, it didn't happen at Z-313. Our own stand-ins for agents Landis & Ready went through all kinds of various body positions (from standing on a small box, to squatting, to standing in the street & lunging forward (towards JFK's 'virtual' car). In our experience, wherever they were positioned, they blocked a line of sight from the sniper's nest window to the person standing, squatting or sitting on a box at the Z-313 spot on Elm Street. While standing in the street they were utilized as mimicking the windshield of the larger car 'Queen Mary' practically bumper to bumper with the JFK 'lowrider' immediately in front of it. We didn't see where a clean shot was possible from the sniper's nest to JFK without hitting the Queen Mary's windshield. The simple re-enactment I described was performed by 3 amateurs trying to satisfy a curiosity (we were wondering how close to being a gunshot victim agents Landis & Ready had been during the attack). Any visitor with a couple of friends can easily try what we did (don't get yourself run over or ticketed!). Some of today's researchers know more about this case than initial investigators & analysts could have dreamed of. There is hope an honest, truthful answer will eventually come in the future. The public can handle it. It won't start WWIII. BM Edited February 7, 2015 by Brad Milch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Brad Milch, I've been thinking about your post #156. You and your colleagues from the early 1970s: please tell more about your take from Dealey Plaza in the early 1970s. In particular, at Z-313, was the direction from the SN window a clean, unobstructed line to JFK in your estimation? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Milch Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Deleted (post attempt failed in transmission) Edited February 8, 2015 by Brad Milch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Milch Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Jon, from our experience (3 fellows in their early 20's), at the Z-313 location on Elm Street there is no sight to the lower portion of the sniper's nest' window for an actor representing JFK with simulations of the Queen Mary vehicle itself & the two agents on the right side running board positioned as they were during the ambush at that spot in the street (as historically accurate as we could be). We didn't have the luxury of having replicas of the two cars, stand-ins for people that rode in them, professional surveyors & someone in the 'sniper's nest' window aiming at us with a carcano with trashy scope (Robert Prudhomme explains in several of his posts just how trashy the scope was on the alleged murder weapon). Depending on how we positioned our 'agent Landis' or 'agent Ready' (standing in the street or on a box simulating the running board) at times our 'JFK' couldn't see the entire window at all. Whatever we tried, we never could get a line of sight to the lower portion of the window in question. We reasoned that if we couldn't see a 'virtual' sniper there, such a person could not see us either. At one point we did a simple JFK simulation walking down the middle of Elm Street with a 'tailgater' positioned the estimated distance of JFK's car trunk & bumper & the bumper, hood, windshield & right side running board of the Queen Mary also walking behind while the JFK actor (squatting or sitting on a box) looked back at the sniper's nest window. As I remember that portion of our experience, the more a person moves away from the TSBD the more a 'tailgater' positioned as I described blocks a 'JFK' view of the sniper's nest window's lower portion. We focused on the lower portion of the window because the window was only open about 1/2 way & the alleged shooter did not shoot thru & damage the upper portion of the window. We weren't expecting the outcome we experienced. At the time, we all believed what we had been told: namely, a shooter in the 'sniper's nest' shot JFK in the head at the Z-313 location on Elm Street & killed him. What we saw in our unscientific re-enactment told us differently. It was only later in reviewing the WC report & evidence volumes plus TV specials supporting them that we noticed the SS follow-up car is missing from the film, photo & narrative re-enactments. We understood why after our experiment at the site: the fatal shot at Z-313 was blocked by two of JFK's guards & the car they were transported in (as we saw it). If one goes back in time & reviews the JFK ambush re-enactments that were broadcast on TV or presented in movies they will notice in most of them the Queen Mary & agents during the attack have been excluded during the ambush re-enactment or are following JFK's parade car at a longer distance than it did during the actual attack. The best time for visitors to try what we did is early Sunday morning. Traffic is sparse. Be prepared to evacuate such re-enactments on a moment's notice because of oncoming traffic & being chastised by DPD for being in the middle of Elm Street. Perhaps they can talk about their experiences here at EF for the benefit of those globally that cannot visit the assassination site on their own. For those that can't visit the site itself, they can view traffic on Elm Street via the 6th Floor Museum's 24/7 online cam that is mounted in one of the boxes the shooter used as either a rifle rest or a shield from return fire. I'd advise to pay close attention to how a vehicle's rear section being tailgated by a slightly larger vehicle literally 'disappears around the Z-313 location. From our experience, we concluded that what the SS, Hoover's boys & the WC folks that handled the ambush did was to not draw attention to the obstacle at Z-313 (Queen Mary & its agents) by simply removing it (as if it was never there) & presenting JFK as a solo, unobstructed target with no one near him when he came under attack; something horribly wrong & historically inaccurate. How those people sleep at night (if still alive) is beyond my comprehension. Because we were amateurs & our tools were crude (ourselves & a box or two) today I'd state with confidence that if the shot at z-313 was not impossible from the TSBD 'sniper's nest', it was extremely close to hitting either agents Landis, Ready or the windshield of the Queen Mary. I'd weaken my evaluation that far. BM Edited February 8, 2015 by Brad Milch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hi Brad And just think, you were at the z313 position, 265 feet from the Sniper's Nest at a downhill angle of 18°. The one that really fascinates me is the FBI's position for the head shot in WCD 298, where there model shows the fatal head shot taking place much further down Elm St., 307 feet from the Sniper's Nest at a greatly reduced angle of only 15°. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 The other thing no one seems to take into consideration is the fact that Elm St. is on a down hill grade of 3.13°, or a drop of 1 foot in every 18.3 feet (1:18.3 or a 5.46% grade). The real question is, did Elm St. maintain a uniform slope of 3.13° all the way to the Triple Underpass, or is 3.13° an average of steeper and flatter portions of the road? It may seem trivial but, think of this. The shooter on the 6th floor is seeing one of the standing SS agents through his scope (or iron sights) and needs to be able to see JFK's head above the SS agent's head in order to shoot him. If there is 18.3 horizontal feet between the SS agent and JFK, JFK will be, from the shooter's perspective, another foot lower than our calculations show us. If there is just over 36 feet between the SS agent and JFK, JFK will be two feet lower in the shooter's perspective than our calculations show. Add to this JFK is not sitting upright at z313, or wherever the head shot actually took place, but is slumped over to his left somewhat, and not at his full erect height. So, we have a shooter looking downhill at the backs of the heads of the SS agents, lined up with JFK, at a 15-18° angle, with JFK's head downhill from the SS agents at an angle of 3.13°, or whatever the slope of the street happened to be at that spot. Kind of changes everything, doesn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 I was just watching the Dealey Plaza Cam on my computer. I'd never seen that before. Can we just get some guys to rent a 1956 Cadillac convertible and a 1962 Lincoln convertible, and get them to park them on Elm St. for a bit, so we can see how they line up? How bout it, Brad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Milch Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 (edited) Great idea, Robert! I'll look around. I find what the WC published as visual support for their ambush evaluation inexcusable; '61-'63 Lincoln convertibles were sitting on used & rental car lots in 1964, as were new Lincoln Continentals. No one can convince me Government investigators couldn't get their hands on one to join the Queen Mary already on site. Just think, Oliver Stone had replicas of both vehicles plus access to the 7th floor of the TSBD & he didn't take advantage of them for his movie, JFK, & show us what an alleged TSBD sniper's nest shooter would have seen the entire length of the attack on JFK with JFK's guards & car tailgating the Presidential Parade car. What a huge wasted opportunity! Stone also failed to show us JFK's' 'view' looking back at the sniper's nest window with his guards & their car practically on top of him the entire length of the attack. Opportunity # 2 wasted. As I remember, there is a flat portion of Elm Street in the vicinity of the bent tree by the North Pergola retaining wall. This is where the WC & Life magazine told us JFK was first shot. The remainder of the street slopes dramatically if one actually walks down it & looks back at the TSBD. If I am not mistaken, the 1st time the SS guards & their follow-up car were focused on in a JFK ambush re-enactment was in 'JFK-The Smoking Gun'. Before that, they failed to appear (even in computer re-enactments). For those who are having trouble visualizing what I described in my earlier posts, try visualizing themselves firing at a firing range target (from an elevation) placed at 3 different distances with a barrel in front of each target. What my friends and I did was look back at the shooter from the longest of the 3 targets & we determined the barrel in front of the range target blocked a line of sight from us to the shooter & from the shooter to us. BM Edited February 8, 2015 by Brad Milch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hi Brad Yeah, I always had a little trouble with the story about the presidential limo not being available, and they had to use the follow up car as a stand in for it. As you say, the Lincoln dealers likely had lots of '62 Lincoln convertibles on their lots, and they looked a damn sight more like the Presidential limo than the Queen Mary did. I'm surprised they didn't use a Lincoln convertible as a stand in for the Queen Mary! LOL Does anyone know if there are any specs available for the Queen Mary, such as height of windshield top, height of running boards above pavement, overall length, wheel base, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Milch Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Good 'ol YouTube...one can find most anything there! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URryjCKkOyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kOfNxCLv1A These are a couple of computer re-enactments of the JFK ambush with the SS guards & Queen Mary included. The poster has a multitude of these type videos depicting line of sight from various suspected shooter & witness locations in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. It can be argued that computer simulations are only as accurate as the programmer but I find these particular videos helpful when attempting to visualize what any given researcher is describing. Hopefully, those following Robert's thread will too. Sincerely, Brad Milch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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