Where was Roy Truly Right after the last Shot was Fired?

[Thomas Graves]

Well, there is this possibility. Baker did go up the stairs and into the TSBD, but not within 20 seconds of the last shot. He may have gone to the corner first, conferred with officers there, and then gone into the TSBD 2-3 minutes later. By that point, Frazier, Molina AND Oswald may have re-entered the building, along with Truly, Campbell and Mrs. Reid. Remember, Campbell only said that "we" saw Oswald in a 1st floor closet near the main entrance; he never actually said Baker was part of that group.

If this story had been told, far too much time might have elapsed to make a 2nd floor lunchroom encounter believable.

P.S.

This scenario would also make believable Shelley's and Lovelady's stories about remaining on the steps 3-4 minutes, conferring with Calvery, heading to the rail yard and looking back to see Truly and Baker ascending the steps.

Robert,

Yes.

Well, it's a pity that Darnell didn't continue to film Baker for a few more seconds.

I guess we'll just never know for sure.

All we can do is speculate and try to put together elegant scenarios, myself included.

Still, if what you say is correct, then it's strange that none of the witnesses said anything about Baker's sprinting down to the corner to confer with them (or with someone else) for a couple of minutes.

--Tommy

Edited August 3, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

For that matter, how many witnesses describe the cop seen sprinting down the Elm St. extension in the opposite direction from Baker? You're right, though. These guys covered their tracks quite well, and all we can do is speculate.

It's also strange no witness saw Baker entering the TSBD.

[Thomas Graves]

For that matter, how many witnesses describe the cop seen sprinting down the Elm St. extension in the opposite direction from Baker? You're right, though. These guys covered their tracks quite well, and all we can do is speculate.

It's also strange no witness saw Baker entering the TSBD.

Yes Robert, it's strange, very very strange. But it's also strange that........

We could go around in circles on this forever.

Hey, maybe that's what Baker did. He circled the building a couple of times!

LOL

--Tommy

Edited August 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Linda,

Except for the Obit. and the 6:15 links, none of the other links in this post work for me yet in Google Chrome. This is the GOOGLE message I get:

"404. That’s an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know."

I have just now looked at your 1950's photo of "Navy Guy" Sooy and the four images of "White Tie Guy / DCA Guy" next to it which you posted a few hours ago on this thread, and I'm sorry to say I'm not convinced they're the same guy, but I am trying to keep an open mind.

I'm looking forward to seeing your other photos of Sooy, and hopefully we'll find a photo or two of Campbell someday, too.

Hi Tommy!

As I said earlier in a pvt msg to you ....i really am clueless as to why you can't see my googlephotos and are getting that error message when i can see all of them when i click on the links. The only things i can think of are some computer problem on your end - lack of updates or an old OS or something. OR maybe there is some privacy setting on googlephotos i don't know about so that only I am able to see them and you and others can't? Did anyone else having the same problem with those links? From now on i'm only going to post imgur links/photos.

As for Sooy, sorry you don't think it looks like him!! What can i say...i think he's a dead ringer, and we do know he was in the area. His face looks a little older and bonier in the DCA photos because he *is* probably 5-10 years older than that Navy comparison photo, and he has glasses on. (In fact, It's the reflection/refraction through the glasses that are sitting low on his nose, that is creating those paler colored "bumps" in his upper cheek area - it's an optical illusion not his real cheeks. So that may be why you think he looks different. I still remain convinced it's him.

In fact, just today, i found absolute proof that he cannot possibly be "Truly#1 by examining him in an uncropped version of Altgens6! (I had cropped his photo out months and saved it because i thought he looked like Sooy. However when i posted it here it lacked the "context" of the full picture. Today I noticed In the very clear Wiegman photo that Robin Unger and Bjorn posted (Jack White's slide) "Truly#1" can be seen to be standing right on the curb - in fact, you can see his feet right on the curb and the front of his left shoe is actually overhanging the curb!

I then examined the full uncropped Altgens 6 photo to see where he was in relation to the curb (something i wasn't interested in months ago when i snipped him out of Altgens.) I think part of the reason you don't think he is Sooy is because you think he may be "Truly#1" because they "both" have a white pocket handkerchief and they both have on a white tie. Doesn't matter! They just both simply happen to have these things in common - and i proved it today.

In the full Altgens photo one can see a little bit of Elm St and the curb Truly#1 was standing on just behind the Queen Mary - and "Sooy" is far to the left of the island, streetlight and curb! So he can't be standing on the curb! (We can't see T1 in Altgens either because he's so short, or we are possibly seeing just a sliver of him behind the Queen Mary and it may be his shoes on the island curb we are seeing!

I made a comparison graphic of Altgens 6 and that Wiegman frame to demonstrate this. Do you want me to post it in this thread as proof that that man (whom i think may be Sooy) cannot be "Truly#1"? Or do i have to post it in the new "Sooy" thread. I haven't posted anything over there yet - just haven't had time and got sidetracked with working on this new find. (Additionally i made up a nice list of the locations and statements of the group of women standing around the Truly Trio on the right (Truly#2) since you said you needed to read through and compare their statements. I will post that here in a minute...

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

"Also keep in mind early on Truly, Baker, and Campbell probably didn't even think about there being film of Baker sprinting into the bldg w/in 10-15 sec of the last shot! So they figured they could lie through their teeth and get away with it!"

Unfortunately, there is no film showing Baker sprinting into the TSBD front entrance. The Couch film shows him within a few feet of the TSBD front steps, but pans away to the left at the crucial moment. To add further mystery to this matter, no witness on the front steps, including Molina and Frazier, could recall seeing a white helmeted motorcycle cop going past them. This is especially strange when one considers Baker would likely have had to move Frazier out of the way to go through the front door.

As everything involved in pinning the patsy tail on the Oswald donkey on the 2nd floor seems to hinge on split second timing, here is something I would like you to consider: What if Baker did not sprint up the steps, with Truly in hot pursuit, seconds after the last shot was fired?

Hi Robert!

Yes good point - i shouldn't have said there was video of him sprinting "into" the TSBD - we only see him going to the base of the steps at full sprint i might add. I too noticed that it seems like he is going to sprint right past the steps - not turn and go up them. Your's is food for thought!

I was trying to think of other possibilities of why almost no one said they saw him come up the steps and enter the bldg. Here's another possible scenario -- what if he did turn and run up the steps only to stop at the top and ask the guy by the door - Oswald/PM- where the stairs were? Even if some people hadn't noticed PM up in the corner earlier - their attention would have been drawn to this urgent encounter. And then Oswald entered the bldg to show him - until Truly arrived (as we can see in Darnell, unlike Baker, Truly is moving like a tortise!) Within hours however, the whole world had heard that Oswald did it and the powers that be needed to put the screws to any witnesses on the steps that had seen this encounter. So, basically you have people like Molina saying they saw Truly enter, but not Baker, who needed the assistance of the hot potato at the top of the steps! I'm just throwing this out there - I still believe he did run up the steps and into the bldg.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Thomas Graves]

Linda,

Except for the Obit. and the 6:15 links, none of the other links in this post work for me yet in Google Chrome. This is the GOOGLE message I get:

"404. That’s an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know."

I have just now looked at your 1950's photo of "Navy Guy" Sooy and the four images of "White Tie Guy / DCA Guy" next to it which you posted a few hours ago on this thread, and I'm sorry to say I'm not convinced they're the same guy, but I am trying to keep an open mind.

I'm looking forward to seeing your other photos of Sooy, and hopefully we'll find a photo or two of Campbell someday, too.

Hi Tommy!

As I said earlier in a pvt msg to you ....i really am clueless as to why you can't see my googlephotos and are getting that error message when i can see all of them when i click on the links. The only things i can think of are some computer problem on your end - lack of updates or an old OS or something. OR maybe there is some privacy setting on googlephotos i don't know about so that only I am able to see them and you and others can't? Did anyone else having the same problem with those links? From now on i'm only going to post imgur links/photos.

As for Sooy, sorry you don't think it looks like him!! What can i say...i think he's a dead ringer, and we do know he was in the area. His face looks a little older and bonier in the DCA photos because he *is* probably 5-10 years older than that Navy comparison photo, and he has glasses on. (In fact, It's the reflection/refraction through the glasses that are sitting low on his nose, that is creating those paler colored "bumps" in his upper cheek area - it's an optical illusion not his real cheeks. So that may be why you think he looks different. I still remain convinced it's him.

In fact, just today, i found absolute proof that he cannot possibly be "Truly#1 by examining him in an uncropped version of Altgens6! (I had cropped his photo out months and saved it because i thought he looked like Sooy. However when i posted it here it lacked the "context" of the full picture. Today I noticed In the very clear Wiegman photo that Robin Unger and Bjorn posted (Jack White's slide) "Truly#1" can be seen to be standing right on the curb - in fact, you can see his feet right on the curb and the front of his left shoe is actually overhanging the curb!

I then examined the full uncropped Altgens 6 photo to see where he was in relation to the curb (something i wasn't interested in months ago when i snipped him out of Altgens.) I think part of the reason you don't think he is Sooy is because you think he may be "Truly#1" because they "both" have a white pocket handkerchief and they both have on a white tie. Doesn't matter! They just both simply happen to have these things in common - and i proved it today.

In the full Altgens photo one can see a little bit of Elm St and the curb Truly#1 was standing on just behind the Queen Mary - and "Sooy" is far to the left of the island, streetlight and curb! So he can't be standing on the curb! (We can't see T1 in Altgens either because he's so short, or we are possibly seeing just a sliver of him behind the Queen Mary and it may be his shoes on the island curb we are seeing!

I made a comparison graphic of Altgens 6 and that Wiegman frame to demonstrate this. Do you want me to post it in this thread as proof that that man (whom i think may be Sooy) cannot be "Truly#1"? Or do i have to post it in the new "Sooy" thread. I haven't posted anything over there yet - just haven't had time and got sidetracked with working on this new find. (Additionally i made up a nice list of the locations and statements of the group of women standing around the Truly Trio on the right (Truly#2) since you said you needed to read through and compare their statements. I will post that here in a minute...

Sorry, Linda.

I'm confused.

How many different people are you talking about in your post?

Regardless, even if you are able to prove that "DAC 6:15 White Tie and Handkerchief Guy" is David Aubrey Sooy, are you absolutely certain that he was ONI simply because he was the commander of a naval base? Carrying it one step further, even if you can prove that he was ONI, how will you go about trying to prove he had something to do with the assassination?

PS I thought you said you were going to start putting your new Sooy stuff on the thread I created especially for him called "Man Wearing Fedora, White Tie, and Breast Pocket Handkerchief -- ONI Officer David Aubrey Sooy?". That thread has only five replies on it so far, and four of them are from me! LOL

--Tommy

Edited August 5, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Tommy said:

I don't think it's so strange that none of the witnesses other than Truly (who in Darnell was looking right at him and turned to watch him go by) remembered and reported seeing Baker run up the steps.

And as I've tried to point out, Baker's easiest route up the steps was just to the left of the center hand railing, which would explain his last-second veering in Darnell.

I've tried to imagine where else he might have gone myself and why people didn't notice him. If people on the steps truly didn't notice him maybe it's because they were so transfixed on trying to figure out what had happened to the president? It was a shocking event with shots and chaos all around and many of them couldn't see what had happened - so, i imagine they were focused on finding out and talking among themselves about that. And not many people thought the shots came from the TSBD - so it may not have even registered as an ominous thing that a cop was rushing into their bldg. They may have subconsciously tuned Baker out thinking he needed to get in the bldg to use the phone or something. Who knows.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Sorry, Linda.

I'm confused.

How many different people are you talking about in your post?

Even if you are able to prove that "DAC 6:15 White Tie and Handkerchief Guy" is David Aubrey Sooy, are you absolutely certain that he was ONI simply because he was the commander of a naval base? Carrying it one step further, even if you can prove that he was ONI, how will you go about trying to prove he had something to do with the assassination?

--Tommy

Sorry if i'm confusing you, Tommy! About a year ago on a thread on EDF and in another FB group, i learned about about Sooy and Krystinik from posts by James Richards and Greg Parker. Shortly after that -- knowing he had been parked around the TSBD watching the motorcade, I started looking for him in footage and photos, and shortly thereafter I found who i believed to be Sooy in the DCA film at 6:15. It was Greg Parker - a meticulous researcher - who first said in that EDF thread that Sooy was not only Cmdr of the Dallas NAS, but was ONI. I trust his research. (It's a great thread - i highly recommend it! James Richards first brings up Sooy in post #13, and then Greg Parker replies with many very enlightening posts. It's basically about Michael Paine taking LHO to that ACLU mtg ---- allegedly. Krystinik, a good friend from way back with Sooy, was in on that ACLU story too and helped Michael Paine smear Oswald basically. Krystinik & Paine were the only ones that testified or gave statements that LHO stood up in the mtg and said what he said. No one else there remembered hearing a peep out of him or even seeing him there! Hmmmmm....I'm sure there's an innocent explanation for that. <snark>. And Krystinik, like Sooy, was ONI and was also good friends with Michael Paine, and worked with him at Bell Helicopter. I have a photo of Sooy & Krystinik together i'll post in the new thread eventually, but it's also in that thread).

I'm very convinced that the guy at 6:15 in the DCA film is Sooy - have been since day one. Then a few months ago I happened to notice the tall guy with the dark hat over the top of the Queen Mary's windshield/visor in the Altgens 6 - i hadn't noticed him before. I noted his features looked a lot like Sooy but he had a little fuller face. However, i didn't rule him out because i thought it might just be the lighting making his face look thinner in the DCA film than in Altgens. So, IMO, he could also possibly be Sooy.

Fast forward to this Truly thread and Truly #1 and Truly#2. You and I proved that Truly#2 is the real Roy Truly. I believed and believe that the clear Jack White/Unger photo of "Truly#1" who, IMO, has a chubby face & cheeks, puggish nose and big sunglasses, unlike Truly (or Sooy) proves he cannot be either of them. You think the resemblance is close enough. As i understand it (correct me if i've misunderstood you) you believe Truly#1 and the guy I found in Altgens 6 who I think might be Sooy are one in the same. Is that right?

Well today, i photographically proved - without a doubt - that no matter who they are, they are not the same person. Even though they may be dressed similarly, with a white handkerchief, dark hat and white tie, and even thought they may be in the same vaguely general area - they are NOT the same person but two distinct individuals. I sent you the graphic I made proving they can't be the same person, in pvt message. I just checked and see you replied thusly:

So I guess you're saying that both "Truly #1" (with arms crossed and handkerchief in pocket) and "Sooy" (whose head is visible above the Queen Mary) were standing on the island, but are different people correct? And you think that the guy whose head is visible above the Queen Mary is the same guy as "DCA 6:15 White Tie and Handkerchief Guy," right?

I believe the guy whose head is visible above the Queen Mary MIGHT be the DCA 6:15 guy (who, IMO, is Sooy). As I said he looks a little different so maybe it's not Sooy but an entirely different guy. But on the other hand it might just be a difference in lighting.

Due to the really extreme foreshortening caused by Altgen's lens I'm not sure where exactly the... let's call him....Queen Mary-Man (QM-Man) is standing. He might be on the island to the north of the stoplight & Truly#1 --- ie: standing closer to the TSBD. The island isn't very wide. Or he might be standing in the Elm Extension. Or I'm even wondering if due to the severe foreshortening he could be in front of the TSBD, even EAST of the Truly#2 grouping.

I have searched for the QM-Man in Wiegman (and Darnell) but can't find him anywhere - yet he is clearly there, somewhere, in Altgens. And I proved he is not one and the same with Truly#1 (details below). Weigman doesn't give us a view of who is to the right (east) of the Truly#2 grouping, so that's another reason i'm guessing he might be out of frame to the east of them, but Altgens severe foreshortening makes him look much closer. Darnell does pan farther east of the doorway but by then everyone has scattered.

It might not seem possible that QM-Man is that far down, but Altgen's lens creates some really bizarre optical illusions. For example, in Altgens 6 the stop light and its attached signs appear to be right next to the the other big sign post on the island that has multiple route signs attached to it. In Altgens6 they practically appear to be atop each other! But when seen in shots by other photographers we can see they are actually widely separated from each other, both in the East-West axis and the North-South axis. Altgens lens also makes Lovelady appear to be leaning against the western entryway pillar, when in fact he's over against the western side of the railing. In the Wiegman film (the second by second version on youtube), I have found another man in a hat further west on the island. He is tiny and nondescript so i can't prove he is the QM-Man - besides I think it's impossible that he could be that far west - west of the tree in the island. The QM-Man appears far to the east of the tree - as i said he may even be east of the Truly#2 grouping.

What i do know 100% for sure now, is that QM-Man (whomever he is) and "Truly#1" (whomever he is) are NOT the same person. We can see in Jack White's clear, Wiegman frame, that Truly#1 has his feet firmly planted right on the curb, and in fact, the front of his left foot is hanging over the edge of the curb on Elm. While in Altgens 6, even though we can't see Truly#1 because he's obstructed by the QM itself - just to the rear of the QM, we can see a bit of Elm street and curb of the island. The curb is just below the stoplight pole where Truly#1 was/is standing. And crucially, we can also see the QM-Man in the distance, and he is no where near that curb or the stop light pole - but is standing far to the left of it and is also most likely far in the distance. It can't be his feet planted on that curb. So that wider shot of Altgens6 and Jack White's Wiegman frame, proves that they are 2 distinct people - whoever they are.

I hope this clears it up!

Addendum:

Sooy was ONI. (Plus there's some belief that Oswald had an ONI file and this was deliberately kept from the ARRB). As for proving Sooy, as ONI, had something to do with the assassination, well, i haven't proved that...and i don't claim to have proved that. It may never be proven, he may have been a totally innocent observer. But who knows where this knowledge might lead with further research now that we are aware of his presence. The fact that he was ONI and there in DP should raise some red flags just like James Powell does. Just as other intelligence people in the motorcade do - like Lumpkin Gen. Whitmeyer, Winston Lawson etc....But if we shut down research in the early stages just because we don't have full proof yet...well we get nowhere. The same holds for anything connected to the assassination - like PM etc...

EDIT: So sorry Tommy! I did accidently switch Truly#2 for Truly#1 several times! I know who I meant - probably just my lack of sleep that caused me to f*ck up! Sorry to confuse you! I corrected my f*ck-ups in red above so you could find them easier. I read it over twice and think I found them all finally! (Let me know if you find any I missed!)

I think we should just start calling "Truly#2" the "Real Roy", or something like that, now that it's been sufficiently proven. It would be harder to screw up the names that way. The "Truly#1", "Truly#2" thing is truly messing with my head! Plus it's probably confusing to people new to the thread - esp. if they jump in in the middle of the pages.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Thomas Graves]

Sorry, Linda.

I'm confused.

How many different people are you talking about in your post?

Even if you are able to prove that "DAC 6:15 White Tie and Handkerchief Guy" is David Aubrey Sooy, are you absolutely certain that he was ONI simply because he was the commander of a naval base? Carrying it one step further, even if you can prove that he was ONI, how will you go about trying to prove he had something to do with the assassination?

--Tommy

Sorry if i'm confusing you, Tommy! About a year ago on a thread on EDF and in another FB group, i learned about about Sooy and Krystinik from posts by James Richards and Greg Parker. Shortly after that -- knowing he had been parked around the TSBD watching the motorcade, I started looking for him in footage and photos, and shortly thereafter I found who i believed to be Sooy in the DCA film at 6:15. It was Greg Parker - a meticulous researcher - who first said in that EDF thread that Sooy was not only Cmdr of the Dallas NAS, but was ONI. I trust his research. (It's a great thread - i highly recommend it! ).

I'm very convinced that the guy at 6:15 in the DCA film is Sooy - have been since day one. Then a few months ago I happened to notice the tall guy with the dark hat over the top of the Queen Mary's windshield/visor in the Altgens 6 - i hadn't noticed him before. I noted his features looked a lot like Sooy but he had a little fuller face. However, i didn't rule him out because i thought it might just be the lighting making his face look thinner in the DCA film than in Altgens. So, IMO, he could also possibly be Sooy.

Fast forward to this Truly thread and Truly #1 and Truly#2. You and I proved that Truly#2 is the real Roy Truly. I believed and believe that the clear Jack White/Unger photo of "Truly#1" who, IMO, has a chubby face & cheeks, puggish nose and big sunglasses, unlike Truly (or Sooy) proves he cannot be either of them. You think the resemblance is close enough. As i understand it (correct me if i've misunderstood you) you believe Truly#1 and the guy I found in Altgens 6 who I think might be Sooy are one in the same. Is that right?

Well today, i photographically proved - without a doubt - that no matter who they are, they are not the same person. Even though they may be dressed similarly, with a white handkerchief, dark hat and white tie, and even thought they may be in the same vaguely general area - they are NOT the same person but two distinct individuals. I sent you the graphic I made proving they can't be the same person, in pvt message. I just checked and see you replied thusly:

So I guess you're saying that both "Truly #1" (with arms crossed and handkerchief in pocket) and "Sooy" (whose head is visible above the Queen Mary) were standing on the island, but are different people correct? And you think that the guy whose head is visible above the Queen Mary is the same guy as "DCA 6:15 White Tie and Handkerchief Guy," right?

I believe the guy whose head is visible above the Queen Mary MIGHT be the DCA 6:15 guy (who, IMO, is Sooy). As I said he looks a little different so maybe it's not Sooy but an entirely different guy. But on the other hand it might just be a difference in lighting.

Due to the really extreme foreshortening caused by Altgen's lens I'm not sure where exactly the... let's call him....Queen Mary-Man (QM-Man) is standing. He might be on the island to the north of the stoplight & Truly#2 --- ie: standing closer to the TSBD. The island isn't very wide. Or he might be standing in the Elm Extension. Or I'm even wondering if due to the severe foreshortening he could be in front of the TSBD, even EAST of the Truly#2 grouping. I have searched for the QM-Man in Wiegman (and Darnell) but can't find him anywhere - yet he is clearly there, somewhere, in Altgens. And I proved he is not one and the same with Truly#2 (details below). Weigman doesn't give us a view of who is to the right (east) of the Truly#2 grouping, so that's another reason i'm guessing he might be out of frame to the east of them, but Altgens severe foreshortening makes him look much closer. Darnell does pan farther east of the doorway but by then everyone has scattered.

It might not seem possible that QM-Man is that far down, but Altgen's lens creates some really bizarre optical illusions. For example, in Altgens 6 the stop light and its attached signs appear to be right next to the the other big sign post on the island that has multiple route signs attached to it. In Altgens6 they practically appear to be atop each other! But when seen in shots by other photographers we can see they are actually widely separated from each other, both in the East-West axis and the North-South axis. Altgens lens also makes Lovelady appear to be leaning against the western entryway pillar, when in fact he's over against the western side of the railing. In the Wiegman film (the second by second version on youtube), I have found another man in a hat further west on the island. He is tiny and nondescript so i can't prove he is the QM-Man - besides I think it's impossible that he could be that far west - west of the tree in the island. The QM-Man appears far to the east of the tree - as i said he may even be east of the Truly#2 grouping.

What i do know 100% for sure now, is that QM-Man (whomever he is) and "Truly#1" (whomever he is) are NOT the same person. We can see in Jack White's clear, Wiegman frame, that Truly#2 has his feet firmly planted right on the curb, and in fact, the front of his left foot is hanging over the edge of the curb on Elm. While in Altgens 6, even though we can't see Truly#2 because he's obstructed by the QM itself - just to the rear of the QM, we can see a bit of Elm street and curb of the island. The curb is just below the stoplight pole where Truly#2 was/is standing. And crucially, we can also see the QM-Man in the distance, and he is no where near that curb or the stop light pole - but is standing far to the left of it and is also most likely far in the distance. So that wider shot of Altgens6 and Jack White's Wiegman frame, proves that they are 2 distinct people - whoever they are.

I hope this clears it up!

Addendum:

Sooy was ONI. (Plus there's some belief that Oswald had an ONI file and this was deliberately kept from the ARRB). As for proving Sooy, as ONI, had something to do with the assassination, well, i haven't proved that...and i don't claim to have proved that. But who knows where this knowledge might lead with further research now that we are aware of his presence. The fact that he was ONI and there in DP should raise some red flags just like James Powell does. Just as other intelligence people in the motorcade do - like Lumpkin Gen. Whitmeyer, Winston Lawson etc....But if we shut down research in the early stages just because we don't have full proof yet...well we get nowhere. The same holds for anything connected to the assassination - like PM etc...

Linda,

It seems to me that a couple of times in this post you say "Truly #2" when you mean to say "QM Man."

I thought Truly #2 was the real Roy Truly whom I discovered standing at the far right in the enhanced, 3-D Wiegman clip.

I'm getting more and more confused.

--Tommy

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Correction: The photo of Krystinik & Sooy which i said could be found in the EDF thread I referred to in my post above, is not in that thread...it's in this post in another thread. I "misremembered"! My bad! It's from '52-'54 so Sooy appears young here. Here it is - post #13: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2229&p=292007

Edited August 5, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Linda,It seems to me that a couple of times in this post you say "Truly #2" when you mean to say "QM Man."I thought Truly #2 was the real Roy Truly whom I discovered standing at the far right in the enhanced, 3-D Wiegman clip.I'm getting more and more confused.--Tommy

Tommy! SO SORRY! I made the corrections in my original post above, in RED! Let me know if you find any I still missed! There were 4 of them! Holy cow! No wonder you were confused! I've been running on very little sleep and getting a lot of research done....

Ciao!

Linda <-------------

Edited August 5, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Tommy...

You said a page or so ago that you needed to go back and read the testimony/affidavits etc... of the ladies that were standing with Truly and Campbell and see what they said and if it added up. I thought that was essential too, so over the last day or so I sat down and went thru all their statements and testimonies and wrote them up one by one. I spent a lot of time reading and typing it up so I recommend anyone who's interested to copy and paste it to a word file for safe keeping and handy reference.

They do all basically corroborate each other, except for Judy Johnson mentioned 2 ladies, Jeannie Holt & Stella Jacob, that no one else mentions being in the Truly grouping. Conversely, those two don't mention being in the Truly grouping. It appears what happened was Judy Johnson DID go out front with those two and joined the Truly grouping. But apparently those 2 later wandered off to join up with their friend Ms Simmons, and Judy didn't notice their exit. There was a long sting of people there - and there was certainly plenty of excitement to distract a person.

I hope you accept this little labor of love as my apology for confusing you by switching Truly#1 and Truly#2 around in my previous post!!

-- Linda

Judy Johnson

WHERE: "On November 22, 1963 I left my office, Room 200, Texas School
Book Depository Building, about 12 :15pm to go outside the building
to watch the President's Motorcade pass which was to pass along Elm
Street in front of the building. I was with Miss Jeannie Holt*, 2521
Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Stella Jacob*, 508 South
Marsalis St., Dallas, Texas both employees of the Texas School Book
Depository. We walked to the southwest corner of Elm and Houston
Streets and were joined by Mrs. Bonnie Richey, 220 South Marsalis,
Apt . 117, Dallas, Texas, Mrs. Carolyn Arnold, 3325 South Tyler St.,
Dallas, Texas and Mrs. Betty Dragoo, 2507 West Brooklyn St.,
Dallas, Texas. I was standing at this point on the sidewalk near
the edge of Elm Street at the time President John F. Kennedy was
shot.

(NB: the "SW" corner of Elm & Houston is near the reflecting pool. She is the only one of her group to say they were at the "SW corner" of Elm. Was she confused about the directions? Did she mean the NW corner - near the TSBD - rather than the SW corner? *And as I mentioned above, Johnson is the only one in this group who mentions Holt and Jacob being with them out by Elm in front of the TSBD. But Holt and Jacob and their friend corroborate each other's statements about being together, and not with the Truly group.)

WHOM WITH:
Jeannie Holt* (aka: Gloria Jean Holt)
Stella Jacob*
Bonnie Richey
Carolyn Arnold
Betty Dragoo

WHERE did she go after the shots:
"I returned the bldg. but was unable to get inside as the front door of the bldg was locked."

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 23th 1964 FBI statement

_______________________________________

Bonnie Richey

WHERE: "I was standing in the roadway directly south of the TSBD bldg"

WHOM with:
O.V. Campbell
Carolyn Arnold
Virgie Baker
Betty Dragoo
Judy Johnson

WHERE did she go after the shots:
It doesn't say when she returned to the TSBD, but only that she left the TSBD at about 12:15 and did not return

on that date.

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 18th 1964 FBI statement
_______________________________________

Carolyn Arnold

WHERE: "I was standing in front of the TSBD."

WHOM with:
O.V. Campbell
Bonnie Richey
Betty Dragoo
Virgie Baker (nee Rackley)
Judy Johnson

WHERE did she go after the shots:
"I left the TSBD at about 12:25 PM, Nov. 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date."

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 18th 1964 FBI statement
_______________________________________

Jeraldean Reid

WHERE:
11/23 DPD Affidavit "I was standing on the front steps of the bldg. As the parade drew drew near I walked closer to the street."

11/26 FBI Report "...from a position in front of the of the TSBD bldg..."

3/18 FBI Statement "I was standing in front of the TSBD bldg..."

3/25 WC Testimony
Mrs. Reid. I went out the front door of our bldg...I stood on the steps for several

minutes....Until i saw the parade coming around the corner of Main & Houston and when I did I walked out to the

street so i would be nearer to the people, and i walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell.

Mr. Belin. "All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am?"

Mrs. Reid. Well, no; I had gone out directly in front but i had gotten nearer to the street than the steps.

Mr. Belin. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came by?

Mrs. Reid. Yes; that is right. [she then describes the layout of Elm St vs the Elm Extension and she

continued...] I got right on the curb and was standing there. [belin then points to a diagram of the area and

where he thought she was standing and asks...]

Mr. Belin. ...Can you give any estimate as to where you were in relation to this, well, i will call it a

peninsula of land between the parkway and the bldg.

Mrs. Reid. I was standing about along in here. In here. [belin then points to the spot she referred to and

asks...]

Mrs. Reid. I was standing about along in here. [belin then points out the spot on the diagram he thinks she's

describing and she agrees with him stating...]

Mrs. Reid. That is right.

Mr. Belin. And you would be directly i front of the main entrance of the TSBD, is that correct?

Mrs. Reid. That is correct.

WHOM with:
O.V. Campbell ("...who was standing nearby...")
Roy Truly
Bonnie Richey
Betty Dragoo
Virgie Baker (nee Rackley)
Judy Johnson

WHERE did she go after the shots:

11/23 DPD Affidavit "I went back into our bldg and up to the 2nd floor to our office...[she then goes into the LHO with the Coke story]"

11/26 FBI report "At the conclusion of the shots [and looking up and seeing some "Negro boys" in a TSBD window]...Thereupon she proceeded back to her office on the 2nd floor of the bldg...[she then recounted her LHO with the Coke story.]"

3/18 FBI statement "I left the TSBD bldg on the afternoon of 11/22/63 between 2:00pm and 2:30pm." [she doesn't mention what she did right after the shots.]

3/25 WC Testimony After immediately remarking to Mr. Campbell about the shots, and reporting she immediately looked up at the TSBD and saw the "three colored boys" in the window, her testimony continued...

Mrs. Reid. "I turned and went back in the bldg."

Then after being asked several more questions by Belin about comments Campbell had made about where the shots came from, and about the confusion she saw going on around her and if she had noticed the crowd doing anything else, she continued....

Mrs. Reid. No; because I ran into the bldg. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby [!], I ran up to our office."

At this juncture Dulles butts in to Belin's questioning, and asks Reid "Now, just a minute. How long after the

third shot did you run into the bldg?" And Belin immediately "reminds" Dulles the WC had done a "reconstruction

on that time sequence" which Belin was going to go into as soon as Reid finished her thoughts about her route

into the bldg and up to her office. Belin continues to question her about her route and she reports she went

into the lobby and then took the stairs up to her office on the 2nd floor, at which point she goes into her

story about encountering LHO with the Coke.

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Four: DPD Affiavit 11/23, FBI Report 11/26, FBI Statement 3/18/64, WC Testimony 3/25/64
__________________________________

Betty Dragoo

WHERE: "I left my office...and walked to the front entrance of the bldg about 12:20pm...I was with [she mentions the names and addresses of the 4 women below]." and "I walked just across the street in front of the building entrance."

WHOM WITH:

Bonnie Richey
Carolyn Arnold
Virgie Baker (nee Rackley)
Judy Johnson

WHERE did she go after the shots:
"After Pres. Kennedy had been shot, i stayed outside the bldg and when i tried to get back inside the door was

locked...I left the area about 2:30pm and went home."

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 20th 1964 FBI statement
__________________________________

Virgie Baker (nee Rackley)

WHERE: 11/24 FBI Statement "At about 12:15pm on 11/22/63 she left her office and went out the south door of the TSBD bldg to watch the Presidential motorcade pass. She was standing across the street immediately in front of this bldg but on the north side of the entrance to he Triple Underpass along which the motorcade passed."

3/19 FBI Statement "At approximately 12:15pm on 11/22/63, I left the 2nd floor of the TSBD building to watch the Presidential Motorcade, which I knew was due to pass at about 12:30pm. I was accompanied by Betty Dragoo, Carolyn Arnold, Judy Johnson and Bonnie Richey all of whom are likewise employed by the TSBD . I and the above mentioned girls then stationed ourselves on the edge of the pedestrian parade line at a point approximately thirty feet directly in front of the main entrance to the
Depository Bldg."

3/22/64 WC Deposition Mrs. Baker. "Well, we came out of the bldg across the street at approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front of the Depository Bldg..." [Then after a short discussion between Liebler and Baker, about the layout of Elm St, the Elm Extension, and the "island" between the two, Baker continues...]

Mrs. Baker. I guess you could say we were standing at the edge of Elm St. at the side of the Depository because we were almost in the street - Elm St.

[Then more back and forth between them about the layout the streets that run through Dealey Plaza..then Liebler asks her to point out where she was standing again...]

Mrs. Baker. ...we were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the bldg or at the edge of the bldg; we were standing right here.

Mr. Liebler. So, you were standing directly in front of the TSBD bldg and on the same side of Elm St. that the TSBD is located?

Mrs. Baker. Yes.

WHOM WITH:
Carolyn Arnold
Betty Dragoo
Judy Johnson
Betty Richey

WHERE did she go after the shots:

11/24 FBI Statement "After the shots she and others in the crowd moved down toward the Triple Underpass and on returning to the bldg were told they could not go inside. she did not go inside until about 3:00pm."

3/19/64 FBI Statement "As soon as we realized shots had been fired at Pres. John F. Kennedy we ran in the direction of the Presidential car which I estimate to be about 50 yards from where we were standing, but when we got there the Motorcade had already driven away. We stood there for several minutes trying to find out what happened and then returned to the Depository Bldg entrance. We were told by another bldg. employee that if we went in the bldg we would not be able to get out again so I did not reenter the bldg at that time. I recall

further that i remained in front of the bldg until approximately 2:15pm when i left to go to a restaurant. I returned at approx. 3:00pm as had left my coat and purse in the office. I was in the bldg about 10 mins. and determined that Betty Dragoo had already picked them up for me. I left the bldg ...and met my father at 4:00pm and he drove me home."

3/22/64 WC Deposition
Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming from-- there was a railroad track that runs

behind the building--there directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the underpass,

the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and there was a train that looked

like a circus train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza--the little thing

there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind there this other girl and I almost ran back over there and

looked and we didn't see anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all?
Mrs. BAKER Just a policeman and several people were down there around the tracks working.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all?
Mrs. BAKER Just a *policeman* and *several people* were down there around the tracks *working*.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the assassin?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

The testimony then takes a lengthy turn in the direction of her recounting seeing one of the missed shots

behind the limo, and never returns to what she did after running to the railyard. However her other FBI

statements make clear she returned to the TSBD after a few minutes but did not go in.

* I know this is off topic...but i was just struck like a ton of bricks by her last two comments about what she saw in the railyard. I guess i had previously focused all my attention on her lengthy testimony about the "missed shot". But these railyard comments seems significant, in that, it appears she and her unnamed friend may have been some of the earliest people - in fact, THE earliest people - to investigate the railyard before any other witnesses arrived! Note she makes no mention of the hordes of people from DP pouring into the railyard from the steps by the pergola or being in the midst of a crowd! And, I make special note of her seeing just "a policeman" and a few rail workers "working" around the tracks. Could this be the "hatless cop" in Darnell? Note she doesn't mention a pair of cops - Foster and White - the duo stationed on the TU. I have long suspected this hatless "cop" of some involvement.

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Three - 11/24 FBI Interview, 3/19 FBI statement, 3/22 WC Deposition
________________________________

Jeannie Holt, aka: Gloria Jean Holt

(NB: Judy Johnson was the only one who mentioned Holt and Jacob being with the group in front of the TSBD)

WHERE: "At approximately 12 :10 P .M . on November
22, 1963, I left the Depository building and
walked down toward the Stemmons expressway under
pass west of the building approximately fifty
yards and took up a position on the curb on the
south side of Elm Street to await the presidential
procession. I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons,
now Mrs. Nelson, and Stella Jacob, both employees
of the Texas School Book Depository. I was still standing on-the curb
at the time president John F. Kennedy was shot."

(South side of Elm? Is there evidence she and her 2 worker friends, Sharon Simmons and Stella Jacobs, were on

the curb on the south side of Elm? There is no grouping of 3 women on the curb of the south side of Elm.

Perhaps she confusing south and north?)

WHOM WITH:
Sharon Simmons
Stella Jacobs

WHERE did she go after the shots:

"Following the assassination of President
John Fitzgerald Kennedy I tried to return to work
in the Texas School Book Depository but was told
by other employees that no one would be allowed
in the building so I did not return to work that
day."

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 18th 1964 FBI statement
________________________________________

Stella Jacob

(NB: Judy Johnson was the only one who mentioned Jacob and Holt being with the group in front of the TSBD)

WHERE: "At approximately 12 :00 p .m . on November
22, 1963 . I left the Depository building & walked
down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west
of the building approximately fifty yards and took
up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm
street to await the presidential procession . I was
accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs. Nelson, and
Jeanne Holt, both employees of the Texas School
Book Depository. I was still standing on-the curb
at the time president John F . Kennedy was shot."

(Again...the "south side of Elm? Surely, she and Holt are confusing south and north. And what's funny is Jacob's statement about where she was standing is identical to Holt's statement, except for inserting Holt's name in place of her own! This appears to be a 1963 version of copy & paste!)

WHOM WITH:
Sharon Simmons
Jeanne Holt

WHERE did she go after the shots:
"Following the assassination of the president
I tried to return to work in the Texas School Book
Depository, but was told by other employees that no
one would be allowed in the building so I did not
return to work that day."

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 18th 1964 FBI statement
_______________________________________

Sharon Simmons (Sharon Nelson)

WHERE: "At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing
on the sidewalk on Elm Street about midway between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the underpass
on Elm Street. I was with Jeannie Holt, 2521 Pleasant Drive, Dallas,
and Stella Jacob, 508 South Marsalis, Dallas, at the time the President was shot." (NB: she is the only one of

that trio that properly located them on sidewalk on the north side of Elm, rather than he south side. I believe

the other two made an innocent mistake in direction.)

WHOM WITH:
Jeannie Holt (aka: Gloria Jean Holt)
Stella Jacob

WHERE did she go after the shots:
"I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12 :20 PM on November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date." (She doesn't mention where she went immediately after the shots.)

HOW MANY statements did she make:
Only 1 - March 18, 1964 FBI statement

That's all folks!

Edited August 5, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Robert Prudhomme]

Just read an interesting post on the ROKC forum by "Beowulf". He strongly believes that the short video of Truly (in suit and fedora), Baker (in uniform and white helmet) and others was not actually shot on 22/11/63 but, rather, during the Warren Commission reenactment the following spring. He further believes the bespectacled man on the right is WC commissioner Sen. John Sherman Cooper.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Getting forgetful. We discussed this on this forum in 2013.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=40

[Thomas Graves]

Just read an interesting post on the ROKC forum by "Beowulf". He strongly believes that the short video of Truly (in suit and fedora), Baker (in uniform and white helmet) and others was not actually shot on 22/11/63 but, rather, during the Warren Commission reenactment the following spring. He further believes the bespectacled man on the right is WC commissioner Sen. John Sherman Cooper.

Robert,

Well, is that Roy Truly, between Baker and Yellow Circle Guy?

If so, I suppose we can assume Truly was wearing the same dark-colored hat (that is not lighter than its hatband) on 11/22/63.

Who is the guy to the right of Yellow Circle Guy?

Have you seen Truly and Baker together in the reenactment film?

Why would the Warren Commission or the Secret Service be interested in reenacting a meeting that took place inside the TSBD after the assassination, anyway?

If Senator Cooper wanted to question Marion Baker and Roy Truly, do you think he'd insist on questioning them in situ and wearing the same garb they'd worn on 11/22/63?

Wouldn't the Warren Commission and the Secret Service be more interested in reenacting the sniper's view of the limo from the sixth floor window, Zapruder's view of the limo, etc?

You can see those things on this WPA website:

https://www.wpafilmlibrary.com/clips?page=6999&tag=wetsckhvcbaesg

--Tommy

Edited August 6, 2015 by Thomas Graves