Did the USN et al, believe LBJ's WWIII scenario?

[Chris Newton]

who would get involved in a conspiracy that

That is THE question

required you to kidnap the president's body;

There is no doubt that the body was removed from Dallas illegally

move it to a facility where alterations to make it look like he was shot from the back, or at the least medically ambiguous enough such that you could still make the case for shots from behind;

There is a lot of discussion on AF1 about where the body was going. It went to Bethesda, to doctors that had never performed an autopsy on a gunshot victim. A fully qualified autopsy crew was standing by at Walter Reed. Explain that.

and then return the body to the hospital;

It didn't really "return" to the hospital (it was always there). It was "re-acquainted" with the detail that had been tasked with guarding it.

and control the autopsy.

The Officers that performed the autopsy were in the United States Navy and thereby under the control of superior officers.

A detailed explanation of the Bethesda "shell game" begins at the 53:30 mark:

[Larry Hancock]

Well I'll say it just one more time and then leave it alone. The answer to the question is - nobody. The conspirators were happy to leave ample evidence of multiple shooters and a conspiracy, a Cuban related one. However as always happens in national security crises, the first response of those officially in charge is damage control, then containment and reassurance of the public and ultimately management of the story line so as to prevent panic and overreaction. The system consistently reacts that way to crises in order to minimize career damage, perform CYA for those who made mistakes before and during the crises and as quickly as possible allow those in control to return to something like normality. That's just the way it works. In the end, the President was dead and and those directly involved in the attack ended up being frustrated in their secondary goal.

OK, said that enough, wrote about it enough....no need to be redundant.

[Martin Blank]

In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.

– Dwight D. Eisenhower

For Phase II (Lone Nut shooting from behind) to be successful once it was chosen as the option to follow, the wounds in JFK s body had to track back to Harvey Oswald shooting from the sixth floor of the TSBD, i.e., the shots fired at JFK came from behind and only from behind the president.

The problem was that JFK had ridden through an ambush in which several gunmen fired from a number of directions, including the front, and hit the president in the front and the back. It was an ambush more in keeping with Phase I (international communist conspiracy) than Phase II (lone nut).

In order to turn the body into the “best evidence” to account for shots from the rear and pin the crime on Oswald, it would have to be stolen, altered, and returned to Bethesda Naval Hospital for the “real autopsy.” Obviously, it would take some time to set all this up and even more time to carry it out. The decision to go with Phase II and abandon Phase I had to be made in a way that would allow the necessary time for the shell game to be carried out and the medical forgery to be completed.

The time frame for doing this was fairly tight. The decision couldn’t be made too late in the day because that wouldn’t have allowed enough time to complete everything that was involved with the alterations.

On the other hand, common sense dictates it could not have been made too far in advance either. Ask yourself: Who in their right mind would design or participate in an assassination plot that roughly required the kidnaping, alteration, and return of the president’s body without detection for the plot to succeed? Surely, no one would. It was too risky. So why was it done?

It was done, I believe, because it had to be done. It wasn't part of the original plan. Instead, it was a reaction to something that changed or went awry. It may have had to do with Oswald still being alive. Or it could have involved the switching of the phases themselves. Or both together. Or something else entirely. I don’t know.

I do know that there seemed to be a great deal of Phase I (Castro did it) in play on November 22, lasting from the morning into the evening. The triangulated crossfire ambush, rumors about Oswald’s background, and even a reporter friend of David Phillips who seemed to be checking (for Phillips?) on what the charges were based on the indictment to see what phase was in play. This was at 10 p.m. on November 22. Strange. Stranger still if the decision had been made in advance of that day to switch to Phase II.

(Who can blame LBJ, no matter what his level of involvement or role in the plot, for not wanting to begin his presidency with a nuclear war and tens of millions of dead on both sides?)

So, the decision could not, as has been suggested, have been made before November 22. Neither could it have been made that evening. The time that the autopsy and other associated shenanigans took place argue against both scenarios.

Do all of the day’s Phase I activities suggest that the decision to switch to Phase II had not been made yet or was it something more ominous. Did some of the more hard-core plotters – those who were determined to do an invasion of Cuba the right way this time – attempt an end run? Were they saying “No we have come too far in this. Lost too many good friends. Been frustrated far too often to let this opportunity slip away. We are going to get Fidel no matter what you decide or what the cost.”

Or was it a sign that the switch had not been approved or fully communicated until the morning of the assassination – too late to cover bases that could be taken care of later. This would explain Cliff Carter’s phone calls from the EOB and help explain what LBJ was up to during those times he went missing.

It also has been suggested that people on Air Force 1 were talking about Oswald as the lone deranged assassin and LBJ was conferring with military and national security advisors on board the plane, which got airborne at 2:47 p.m.

It would appear Phase II was initiated around the time the assassination took place – early afternoon. I just don’t know exactly when. Looking at Johnson’s movements and those of his aides may be the key here.

Ultimately, Dr. Humes announced the results of the autopsy at midnight: shots from behind killed the president. At 12:20 a.m. Oswald was indicted for JFK’s murder.

How convenient.

[Larry Hancock]

Martin, in further comment I will offer the point that John Martino privately remarked that the plan, beyond killing JFK, had gone entirely off the rails with Oswald being taken alive and into custody. I don't know if you have SWHT 2010 but I analyze the whole sequence of events as to the change in the plan - including the change in Ruby's role - and the implementation of the damage control / cover-up in Chapter 15. In addition I offer a very specific scenario with dates, events and names for how Johnson himself might have been advised in advance that if something did happen to JFK in November, it would be best for all if he forestalled any true and full investigation of conspiracy. It certainly would explain the otherwise anomalous calls from Washington to Texas that evening. I'm truly not trying to pitch the book, but given that I offer such a specific level of detail, actually corroborated with documents at a number of points, for the over all transition from attack to cover up, I'd actually like to see it discussed when this subject comes up - as it does periodically. Unfortunately I've never been able to get a detailed dialog going about my research/scenario so I'm just offering this in one last attempt it to get the attention of those interested. I promise it will be the last, time for me to move on.

[Greg Wagner]

Larry, with regard to SWHT versions... does the latest version contain all the material from prior versions? Was anything dropped? Thanks!

[Larry Hancock]

Greg, actually the 2010 version has a good bit more material than the other versions except in one respect. In particular it is far more detailed in regard to what I see as the transition from the attack to the cover up and the actions by both the conspirators and the individuals who drove the cover over the first 72 hours. Actually the book had been ready to go to press when Doug Horne's ARRB volumes came out and I found much in there to be so compelling that I totally reworked Chapter 15 and probably doubled its size. The multiple NPIC visits are especially key in tracking the progress of the cover up and reveal much about what was going on in the small NSC gatherings that occurred that weekend and the missing dialogs between Johnson and Hoover. I also added a chapter to discuss points such as the "confession" from Howard Hunt and to present new information on the DalTex building occupants.

What is missing, and has been since the very first spiral bound edition, is the transcript of Noel Twyman's interview with Roy Hargraves. Following initial publication Noel was pressured to take that out of circulation and withdrew his permission for my use. Fortunately the transcript can be found online in various places now and of course is very revealing in regard to Hargrave's admissions about he and Felipe Vidal being in Dallas for the attack.

Hope that answers your question, let me know if it didn't, Larry

[Greg Wagner]

Yes it does... thanks Larry. And thanks for weighing in on the topic. It's been awhile since I've picked up SWHT, but it seems like a good time to revisit some of this information. That's too bad about Burkley's family closing the door. It would seem that he had something to say in 1977. It's hard to believe he wouldn't have done so privately at some point.

[Larry Hancock]

I can only speculate but I think that Burkley was at a minimum in the same position as the FBI agents William Law interviewed. He saw things that did not match with the official report - and of course the documents he prepared do not match either. That may well have made him skeptical to even withhold certain autopsy items that were available to him. But he would be in the position of several others, knowing there were problems but also knowing he would be steamrolled if he attempted to go public, he may well have had some communication with RFK on that point. For that matter, he was in a position in the motorcade to have seen a shot from the front, just as JFK's aides apparently did and determined to keep to themselves. Whether he documented any of that or even shared it with his lawyer is speculative; given his outreach to the HSCA he may have asked an opinion of his lawyer first. Apparently his lawyer was prepared to be very cooperative with the ARRB but obviously could not given the daughter's objections. As to Burkley himself, as with others, a number of bright people who could have provided into to the HSCA pretty quickly saw which way the wind was blowing and decided to back off...I suspect Burkley was quick enough on the uptake to see that with the early change in management, it was not really going to be a true criminal investigation and decided to back off.

[Tom Neal]

I don't buy the theory that the assassination and coverup were two distinct and separate events. It makes little sense to plot and carry out the assassination of a head of state and have no plan for the aftermath. How Kennedy's body got to Bethesda early enough for an "intervention" to occur does not pass a "smell test" as an event that was unplanned.

Hello Chris,

I may be misinterpreting you here... Your belief is that whether the original plan was to make the assassination appear to the public as a multiple-shooter conspiracy OR as a 'lone gunman', a 'controlled autopsy' was planned in advance? Do you think that the LN pretense was the original plan?

Thanks for your reply,

Tom

[Tom Neal]

Tom,

I submit that the list of those who knew what was coming in Dallas was short, tight and closely held. There were a handful of Navy men (ONI) who knew and likely played a role, such as David Sooy and Hal Feeney.

Hi Greg,

Do you have any thoughts as to what specific role ONI played in the assassination planning?

I doubt anyone like Galloway would have been in the loop prior to the event. Admiral Burkley arrives and tells him, "I'm acting on the direct orders of the President. This is a matter of national security and this is how this is going to work...."

I like that. It would have bypassed the Navy chain of command above Galloway to avoid any possible interference.

Why do those who know things mostly keep silent, even later in life? Why has the Kennedy family largely remained silent? Why do the other films and photographs of the assassination remain underground? In my opinion, because those in possession of such information understand what it would mean for their lives and their families should they elect to engage in a frontal assault on the national security establishment.

IMO, some who know, keep quiet because they think JFK SHOULD have been murdered.

Do you have an idea as to what organization is currently 'reminding' anyone who might talk as to the consequences of speaking out? Would this same organization decide when it is necessary to eliminate someone and make it happen?

Thanks for your reply,

Tom

[Tom Neal]

Admiral Burkley seemed to be in the chain of custody of many pieces of evidence that subsequently went missing.

Chris,

Clint Hill stated that the back of JFK's skull was lying on the rear seat of the limo during his precarious ride to Parkland. The limo accompanied by two SS agents, was flown to DC in an Air Force C-130. During the flight Sam Kinney (driver of the Queen Mary) inspected the limo. On the rear seat he found this large piece of JFK's skull, which he was certain came from the back of his head. He further stated that he turned it over to his "close personal friend", Admiral Burkley. As far as I know, it was never seen again.

Tom

[Chris Newton]

Your belief is that whether the original plan was to make the assassination appear to the public as a multiple-shooter conspiracy OR as a 'lone gunman', a 'controlled autopsy' was planned in advance? Do you think that the LN pretense was the original plan?

I think the plan was to pin the assassination on a lone perpetrator.

A study of basic sniper operations can tell you how to break down the elements:

- multiple sniper teams (at least 3) consisting of two people each.

- at least one security team (2 to 3 people per team)

- classic "L" shaped ambush

I think the act of pointing a gun (and possibly firing it) out the sixth floor window is, in fact, part of the setup (no real sniper is going to do that).

I think the LN pretense was the plan, but I agree with Larry, I don't think it was intended that Oswald be captured alive. I think that was a screw-up that Ruby was probably responsible for and therefore it was his responsibility to "fix".

[Chris Newton]

He further stated that he turned it over to his "close personal friend", Admiral Burkley. As far as I know, it was never seen again.

Admiral Burkley stated that all the fragments he was given were handed over to the autopsy doctors for the purpose of trying to reconstruct the skull to help determine the wounds. I think there were a total of three fragments. None of these were the Harper fragment. After the autopsy, Burkley states the fragments were put back in Kennedy's skull.

[Tom Neal]

Greg, actually the 2010 version has a good bit more material than the other versions.

Larry,

When I read "2010 version" I hoped that was the one I already have. However, upon pulling it down from the shelve and discovering mine is the 2006 version, my first thought was: "GREAT! It will be like reading the 2006 version only with MORE info." For anyone who hasn't done so, this is one of a few MUST READ Kennedy assassination books.

What is missing...is the transcript of Noel Twyman's interview with Roy Hargraves. Fortunately the transcript can be found online in various places now and of course is very revealing in regard to Hargrave's admissions about he and Felipe Vidal being in Dallas for the attack.

This a PDF of the Twyman/Hargraves interview for anyone that is interested:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CDkQFjAIahUKEwi3ueGqn5vIAhVClh4KHWwMBqk&url=http%3A%2F%2Flarry-hancock.com%2Froy_hargraves_interview.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEauAqKFxpSv-x6CHOVQgSML37-zw&sig2=EkH7AVBb1fwFq2uBbYWsSw

Following initial publication Noel was pressured to take that out of circulation and withdrew his permission for my use.

If you're allowed to say, who applied the pressure?

Tom

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks for the kind words Tom - I hope you enjoy it and I'll look forward to discussing it as you read.

On your question, as Noel related it to me, Hemming's brother - who was present with Hargraves for the interview - was the one who raised the objections with Noel. I only dimly recall it but I think there was supposed to be a read and approve agreement in place but the pair had shown no interest in reading the transcript and after a goodly time Noel assumed they had just moved on. That's a fairly dim memory at this point. Anyway, Noel was concerned over possible legal action and certainly I honored his request. Later, in talking with Hemming's brother at a Lancer conference in Dallas, the subject came up and again, strictly from memory, he downplayed the whole thing essentially saying there were some minor things discussed during the interview which they felt could be used in the event Hargraves himself faced some rather dated legal problems. Nothing to do with JFK but of course Hargraves did have a lengthy history including suspicion and investigation related to bombings in L.A. That's pretty much the gist of it. As I recall only one day of the interviews ever got transcribed and when I asked Noel he stated the transcription had been really expensive and the tapes of the other part were in deep storage, not something he wanted to get back into.