Thomas Graves Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Thomas Are you beginning to believe now that Lee Farley and I are correct, and that it is highly unlikely that Lovelady and Shelley left the steps of the TSBD and walked down to the rail yards after the assassination? -- Robert Prudhomme Dear Robert, As regards my opinions on the actions of Lovelady and Shelley for the five minutes or so after the assassination, all I can say is, "the jury Is still out." I know that must be very frustrating for you to hear, but it it what it is. I will say, though, that if and when "the verdict" (i.e. my conclusion) comes in, I promise that you be the first to know. How can I say that? Because I know that you'll be the only other member "online" up so darn early in the morning. LOL In all seriousness, I'd like to see some enhanced (i.e., stabilized, blown up, adjusted for contrast and brightness) individual "frames" (and, preferably, a further-enhanced GIF) which were derived from the pertinent Couch or Darnell GIF (I get them mixed up) which shows Possible-Lovelady as he bends over and talks with the Lady In Black on the steps. I need to get a better view of Possible-Lovelady's head, face and shirt before I can be absolutely convinced that this person is, indeed, Billy Lovelady. (Right now I'm kinda almost leaning in that direction, if it makes you feel any better. And as regards Shelley? I still believe Shelley can be seen in Couch / Darnell as he walks part-way down Elm Street Extension and then starts crossing over it, walking towards the "island." Which would fit in quite well with his First Day Affidavit, wouldn't it?) I knew that would "make your day." I hope that that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request on my part. To allay any paranoiac suspicions you might have about said request, it doesn't matter to me if Duncan does it, or Chris Davidson, or John Dolva, or whomever. In fact I'll let you choose who does it, you can politely ask them to do it, and we'll "take it from there. " My only condition is that you must refer them to this post so they can read my definition of "enhanced," above (in bold red text), and they must post their results on this thread. Agreed? Warning: If I don't get a positive response from you within the next twelve calendar months, I will take the initiative to ask your buddy Duncan to do it for me. In the meantime, don't "bug" me about my opinion on Lovelady's - Shelley's actions within the first five minutes or so after the assassination, and I won't go out of my way to "bug" you on yours. Bear in mind, however, that I do reserve the right to continue to post my tentative opinions on the matter, and to try to politely and civilly rebut anyone, including you, who disagrees with me on said tentative conclusions. Why, you ask? Well, this is, after all, the JFK Assassination Debate forum, and trying to rebut another person's (or other peoples') arguments is an integral part of the debating process, isn't it. Sincerely, --Tommy Edited December 21, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Hi Thomas I was hoping one of these talented people would be following this thread, and perhaps have taken enough interest in this matter to have begun analyzing what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension, plus what appears to be Lovelady on the steps bending over to speak to someone. However, I will give it until the New Year and, if no one volunteers by then, I will, as you say, "politely" request their assistance in this matter. Edited December 21, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Hi Thomas I was hoping one of these talented people would be following this thread, and perhaps have taken enough interest in this matter to have begun analyzing what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension, plus what appears to be Lovelady on the steps bending over to speak to someone. However, I will give it until the New Year and, if no one volunteers by then, I will, as you say, "politely" request their assistance in this matter. Dear Robert, Good deal. Please be advised that I was still editing the post while you were replying to it. Therefore, I suggest that you go back and read it again. I'm talking specifically about the "individual frames and further-enhanced GIF" part. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 LOL I'm sure whatever enhancements are made will be fuel for another month long debate here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Thomas Are you beginning to believe now that Lee Farley and I are correct, and that it is highly unlikely that Lovelady and Shelley left the steps of the TSBD and walked down to the rail yards after the assassination? -- Robert Prudhomme Dear Robert, As regards my opinions on the actions of Lovelady and Shelley for the five minutes or so after the assassination, all I can say is, "the jury Is still out." I know that must be very frustrating for you to hear, but it it what it is. I will say, though, that if and when "the verdict" (i.e. my conclusion) comes in, I promise that you be the first to know. How can I say that? Because I know that you'll be the only other member "online" up so darn early in the morning. LOL In all seriousness, I'd like to see some enhanced (i.e., stabilized, blown up, adjusted for contrast and brightness) individual "frames" (and, preferably, a further-enhanced GIF) which were derived from the pertinent Couch or Darnell GIF (I get them mixed up) which shows Possible-Lovelady as he bends over and talks with the Lady In Black on the steps. I need to get a better view of Possible-Lovelady's head, face and shirt before I can be absolutely convinced that this person is, indeed, Billy Lovelady. (Right now I'm kinda almost leaning in that direction, if it makes you feel any better. And as regards Shelley? I still believe Shelley can be seen in Couch / Darnell as he walks part-way down Elm Street Extension and then starts crossing over it, walking towards the "island." Which would fit in quite well with his First Day Affidavit, wouldn't it?) I knew that would "make your day." I hope that that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request on my part. To allay any paranoiac suspicions you might have about said request, it doesn't matter to me if Duncan does it, or Chris Davidson, or John Dolva, or whomever. In fact I'll let you choose who does it, you can politely ask them to do it, and we'll "take it from there. " My only condition is that you must refer them to this post so they can read my definition of "enhanced," above (in bold red text), and they must post their results on this thread. Agreed? Warning: If I don't get a positive response from you within the next twelve calendar months, I will take the initiative to ask your buddy Duncan to do it for me. In the meantime, don't "bug" me about my opinion on Lovelady's - Shelley's actions within the first five minutes or so after the assassination, and I won't go out of my way to "bug" you on yours. Bear in mind, however, that I do reserve the right to continue to post my tentative opinions on the matter, and to try to politely and civilly rebut anyone, including you, who disagrees with me on said tentative conclusions. Why, you ask? Well, this is, after all, the JFK Assassination Debate forum, and trying to rebut another person's (or other peoples') arguments is an integral part of the debating process, isn't it. Sincerely, --Tommy bumped in an attempt to attract the attention of a digitally-talented volunteer like Chris Davidson, Duncan McRae, or John Dolva Edited December 22, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gilbride Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 My 2 cents on this. Gerda Dunckel's identification of Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film still stands up. They left the steps long before Baker arrived there. Lovelady, about 5'4", is easily recognized by his checkered shirt and balding head. Shelley looks just like the guy ID'd by Tom Scully as what Shelley really looked like. And we know that they had stood together up on the front landing. Lovelady's handwritten affidavit initially reads: "...After it was over we went back into the building and went to work." But we know, in retrospect, that nobody went to work- the workers milled around, hung out for a roll call, and were eventually dismissed for the day. Lovelady, when writing this sentence, was referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. He crossed out "went to work" and so amended this sentence to read: "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." He is still referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. This portion of his affidavit has nothing to do with his actual behavior after the shots. Gauging from Gerda's film analysis, Lovelady & Shelley went down the Elm St. Extension just after the shots. In their testimony they clarified something they had first brought up in their FBI blanket-interviews a few weeks earlier. They had remained at the 1st railroad track 1 1/2- 2 minutes, then returned inside via the West Annex ramp. They omitted not only their return to the front landing, through the warehouse, but also what had transpired on the ramp while they while they were at the 1st railroad track. This is how important Gerda's discovery was. It's the sword that slashes the Gordian knot, on the mishmash of information wrapping the front landing just after the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 My 2 cents on this. Gerda Dunckel's identification of Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film still stands up. They left the steps long before Baker arrived there. Lovelady, about 5'4", is easily recognized by his checkered shirt and balding head. Shelley looks just like the guy ID'd by Tom Scully as what Shelley really looked like. And we know that they had stood together up on the front landing. Lovelady's handwritten affidavit initially reads: "...After it was over we went back into the building and went to work." But we know, in retrospect, that nobody went to work- the workers milled around, hung out for a roll call, and were eventually dismissed for the day. Lovelady, when writing this sentence, was referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. He crossed out "went to work" and so amended this sentence to read: "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." He is still referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. This portion of his affidavit has nothing to do with his actual behavior after the shots. Gauging from Gerda's film analysis, Lovelady & Shelley went down the Elm St. Extension just after the shots. In their testimony they clarified something they had first brought up in their FBI blanket-interviews a few weeks earlier. They had remained at the 1st railroad track 1 1/2- 2 minutes, then returned inside via the West Annex ramp. They omitted not only their return to the front landing, through the warehouse, but also what had transpired on the ramp while they while they were at the 1st railroad track. This is how important Gerda's discovery was. It's the sword that slashes the Gordian knot, on the mishmash of information wrapping the front landing just after the shots. Richard, Unfortunately, I've read in a document that Lovelady was all of 5' 8". Which is still pretty short in my 6' 5" book. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Gilbride Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 That's fine, I was remembering info on Lovelady's height that I had seen somewhere, not having the time to fact-check that. I don't know that Shelley's height is known with certainty, but Lovelady was shorter than Shelley, by a mile. They stand out in the Couch film like Batman & Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Lee Farley, telling it like it is (or was) about Shelley and Lovelady: http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13152069-billy-lovelady-location I'm also starting to believe that Lovelady and Shelly didn't leave the building. And once again I read in Lovelady's statement what I've read and heard before, that there was a shot, a short pause, followed by two shots in quick succession. The two shots in quick succession couldn't have been fired by the same gun. (But then, this belongs on another thread.) A quick comment about Lovelady's handwritten same-day affidavit. http://www.reopenken...velady-location It's interesting to note that he went to the trouble to write in his affidavit that his lunch period was from 12 noon to 12:45. Even though it was probably true (I haven't taken the time to verify it), I don't understand why he felt it necessary to include that information in his affidavit. Did Lovelady expect the investigators to believe that he and Shelley had strictly observed their 45-minute lunch period on that exceptional day, i.e., that the moment "when it was over" just happened to coincide with the official end of their lunch period? What exactly was "all over" when they "returned to work"? Since we all know that the assassination occurred around 12:31, if Lovelady and Shelley really did go back to work at 12:45, what had they been doing during the previous 14 minutes or so? Of Truly's other employees, who else actually went back to work at 12:45 besides Lovelady and Shelley? Anyone at all? Lovelady originally wrote, "After it was over we went back into the building and went back to work." Edit: Sandy, if you read the sentence above you will realize that your recent interpretation of what Lovelady meant by the phrase "went back into the building" is incorrect. For the simple reason that if he had meant what you think he did by that phrase, then he wouldn't have written as long of a sentence as he actually did write, i.e., he would simply have written "After it was over we went back into the building." In the sentence he did write, he is telling us two things: 1 ) They went back to work, 2 ) after they went back into the building (as opposed, I suppose, to their immediately going back to work on some (admittedly silly) project outside the building.) Yes, you're right. I actually realized I'd made that mistake earlier today when I was studying (again) Lovelady's statement. I thought that all he'd said was "After it was over we went back to work." Which I interpretted as their going back inside, where he works. I don't have any idea why he scratched off the "back to work" part. Then for some strange reason he put a hard-to-see, elevated but not inserted "I" above the word "and", crossed out "went back to work" and inserted in its place, "took some police officers up to search the building." I firmly believe that his final, edited sentence was meant to read, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." This is what I think happened: He wrote that they went inside and went to work. Because... who knows... maybe they did do a little work, or tried to, or knew they should be working. He then decided not to say that at all, so he crossed it off and instead said he helped some policemen. Which I assume is true. After the statement was finished, he proof-read it and realized he had forgotten to write the word "I." So he inserted it by writing it above where he meant it to be. He didn't know how to use an insertion mark. There's a huge difference between the two sentences. I thought I'd mention it because I honestly don't "get it." And I think it smells a bit fishy. Oh... I know what you're getting at! By "went to work" Lovelady meant that they went to work on the plan to frame Oswald, etc., etc. LOL, yeah it does sound fishy. But I think Lovelady would have to be a Maxwell Smart to make a mistake like that! It raises some important questions. For example, what exactly was Shelly doing while Lovelady "took some police officers up to search the building"? Working? Honestly I'd be surprised if anybody did any work following the assassination. But who knows what guys like Shelly were doing. Anybody's guess. Guarding one of the rear elevators (as he was allegedly ordered to do by his boss, Truly) before he, in turn, assigned that job to Jack Dougherty and went upstairs, himself? --Tommy bumped because Sandy obviously hadn't read this edited version when he responded to the pre-edited original Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Lee Farley, telling it like it is (or was) about Shelley and Lovelady: http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13152069-billy-lovelady-location I'm also starting to believe that Lovelady and Shelly didn't leave the building. And once again I read in Lovelady's statement what I've read and heard before, that there was a shot, a short pause, followed by two shots in quick succession. The two shots in quick succession couldn't have been fired by the same gun. (But then, this belongs on another thread.) A quick comment about Lovelady's handwritten same-day affidavit. http://www.reopenken...velady-location It's interesting to note that he went to the trouble to write in his affidavit that his lunch period was from 12 noon to 12:45. Even though it was probably true (I haven't taken the time to verify it), I don't understand why he felt it necessary to include that information in his affidavit. Did Lovelady expect the investigators to believe that he and Shelley had strictly observed their 45-minute lunch period on that exceptional day, i.e., that the moment "when it was over" just happened to coincide with the official end of their lunch period? What exactly was "all over" when they "returned to work"? Since we all know that the assassination occurred around 12:31, if Lovelady and Shelley really did go back to work at 12:45, what had they been doing during the previous 14 minutes or so? Of Truly's other employees, who else actually went back to work at 12:45 besides Lovelady and Shelley? Anyone at all? Lovelady originally wrote, "After it was over we went back into the building and went back to work." Edit: Sandy, if you read the sentence above you will realize that your recent interpretation of what Lovelady meant by the phrase "went back into the building" is incorrect. For the simple reason that if he had meant what you think he did by that phrase, then he wouldn't have written as long of a sentence as he actually did write, i.e., he would simply have written "After it was over we went back into the building." In the sentence he did write, he is telling us two things: 1 ) They went back to work, 2 ) after they went back into the building (as opposed, I suppose, to their immediately going back to work on some (admittedly silly) project outside the building.) Yes, you're right. I actually realized I'd made that mistake earlier today when I was studying (again) Lovelady's statement. I thought that all he'd said was "After it was over we went back to work." Which I interpretted as their going back inside, where he works. I don't have any idea why he scratched off the "back to work" part. Then for some strange reason he put a hard-to-see, elevated but not inserted "I" above the word "and", crossed out "went back to work" and inserted in its place, "took some police officers up to search the building." I firmly believe that his final, edited sentence was meant to read, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." This is what I think happened: He wrote that they went inside and went to work. Because... who knows... maybe they did do a little work, or tried to, or knew they should be working. He then decided not to say that at all, so he crossed it off and instead said he helped some policemen. Which I assume is true. After the statement was finished, he proof-read it and realized he had forgotten to write the word "I." So he inserted it by writing it above where he meant it to be. He didn't know how to use an insertion mark. There's a huge difference between the two sentences. I thought I'd mention it because I honestly don't "get it." And I think it smells a bit fishy. Oh... I know what you're getting at! By "went to work" Lovelady meant that they went to work on the plan to frame Oswald, etc., etc. LOL, yeah it does sound fishy. But I think Lovelady would have to be a Maxwell Smart to make a mistake like that! It raises some important questions. For example, what exactly was Shelly doing while Lovelady "took some police officers up to search the building"? Working? Honestly I'd be surprised if anybody did any work following the assassination. But who knows what guys like Shelly were doing. Anybody's guess. Guarding one of the rear elevators (as he was allegedly ordered to do by his boss, Truly) before he, in turn, assigned that job to Jack Dougherty and went upstairs, himself? --Tommy bumped because Sandy obviously hadn't read this edited version when he responded to the pre-edited original Funny. Nice inference, Sandy, but that's not what I meant by "went to work" and "smells fishy," and if you go back and read my most recent version of this post, you'll see that I deleted the two sentences "I thought I'd mention it because I honestly don't 'get it.' And I think it smells a bit fishy." The reason I deleted those sentences is because I finally realized that Lovelady was probably telling nothing but the truth (but like a good lawyer, wasn't volunteering the whole truth) in this handwritten First Day Affidavit. It's clear that his original sentence ended with the statement, "... and we went back to work." I have no problem with that now because I think he was just making a general statement (i.e., their helping the police and guarding the elevator were both examples of work in general, but then he realized that he needed to be more specific about what kind of "work" he had himself done (i.e., taken some police officers up to search the building), and so he changed his sentence, which we should be grateful for. Bottom line -- I "get" it now, and it no longer smells "fishy" to me. --Tommy Edited December 23, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) My intuition tells me that Lovelady was telling the truth in his edited, final sentence, the one that reads, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers upstairs to search the building." Which leads me to believe that it was Lovelady who was "captured" upstairs on the 6th floor (while probably standing on a pallet) in Tom Alyea's film: --Tommy Wow, that really does look like Lovelady. But damn... I wish he had his shirt on. Plaid or striped... plaid or striped ... plaid or striped ... Edited December 23, 2015 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) My intuition tells me that Lovelady was telling the truth in his edited, final sentence, the one that reads, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers upstairs to search the building." Which leads me to believe that it was Lovelady who was "captured" upstairs on the 6th floor (while probably standing on a pallet) in Tom Alyea's film: --Tommy Wow, that really does look like Lovelady. But damn... I wish he had his shirt on. Plaid or striped... plaid or striped ... plaid or striped ... Sandy, The deceased Gary Mack claimed that this is Lovelady and that you can make out some of the plaid pattern in his shirt. I don't know if Gary had seen a better copy of the film, or if he had seen it in just a split second of this one, but I think Gary was an honest man, and I believe what he said about this. I don't think he was "disinfo" like I am. LOL --Tommy PS I think the direct sunshine coming through the window behind "Lovelady" caused photographic over exposure of the guy's shirt, which made it look a lot lighter in color than it really was, and also "washed out" any plaid pattern it might have had. Edited December 23, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Why did Shelley and Lovelady go back into the building after the last shots? Simple. The same reason you could see everyone else going into the building. Their lunch break was almost over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 My 2 cents on this. Gerda Dunckel's identification of Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film still stands up. They left the steps long before Baker arrived there. Lovelady, about 5'4", is easily recognized by his checkered shirt and balding head. Shelley looks just like the guy ID'd by Tom Scully as what Shelley really looked like. And we know that they had stood together up on the front landing. Lovelady's handwritten affidavit initially reads: "...After it was over we went back into the building and went to work." But we know, in retrospect, that nobody went to work- the workers milled around, hung out for a roll call, and were eventually dismissed for the day. Lovelady, when writing this sentence, was referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. He crossed out "went to work" and so amended this sentence to read: "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." He is still referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. This portion of his affidavit has nothing to do with his actual behavior after the shots. Gauging from Gerda's film analysis, Lovelady & Shelley went down the Elm St. Extension just after the shots. In their testimony they clarified something they had first brought up in their FBI blanket-interviews a few weeks earlier. They had remained at the 1st railroad track 1 1/2- 2 minutes, then returned inside via the West Annex ramp. They omitted not only their return to the front landing, through the warehouse, but also what had transpired on the ramp while they while they were at the 1st railroad track. This is how important Gerda's discovery was. It's the sword that slashes the Gordian knot, on the mishmash of information wrapping the front landing just after the shots. Did Shelley and Lovelady get a chance to talk to Gloria Calvery on the concrete island before they took off down the street to the railyards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Why did Shelley and Lovelady go back into the building after the last shots? Simple. The same reason you could see everyone else going into the building. Their lunch break was almost over. Dear Robert, As Lovelady wrote in his First Day Affidavits, their lunch period started at 12 noon and lasted until 12:45. The assassination occurred at 12:31. Why would those people go back in the building thirteen or fourteen minutes early to get ready to go back to work with all that excitement going on outside? I think most of those people are going back inside in Couch / Darnell to either 1 ) get to a telephone before one of their colleagues did, or 2 ) to throw up in the bathroom. --Tommy Edited December 23, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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