Great New Movie Spells out the Case for Oswald as Prayer Man

[Robert Prudhomme]

Richard

Would you mind elaborating on this "lack-of-Biffle-corroboration" thing you keep going on about?

Kent Biffle was a reporter riding far back in the motorcade, and he left the car he was riding in to find out if there was a story in Dealey Plaza. However, prior to his entering the TSBD with what he called the "first wave of officers", he went down to the Grassy Knoll to investigate why all the onlookers were pointing to it.

What does Biffle have to do with Baker?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Robert Prudhomme: In other words, WC lawyers falsified [this portion of] the testimony of Victoria Adams, and either falsified [the associated portions of] the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley, or coerced [i.e. prepped] these two into giving false testimony.

If you can readily accept these serious offenses to have occurred [in a Government that has just murdered its sitting President], I am puzzled as to why you accept as Gospel the testimony [that in particular relates to the lunchroom incident] of Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

Do you think the WC's lying could extend to these gentlemen, as well?

***********

Belin could not have achieved this, the perpetration of a lunchroom hoax, because there were 2 testimonies in near lock-step correspondence to doctor up. The will-call counter bump is the telltale clue that the correspondences were true accounts.

Imagine Belin attempting to insert the bump into scripts, in his office at his leisure, for dramatic realism. Not only does this run into the problem I mentioned earlier- of the stenographer, etc.- now wrapped up in the mini-conspiracy.

But the bump will be exposed as a falsehood once the hoax hypothesis fails, when it is held up against the aggregate of: the filmed interview, the Sept. 23rd affidavit, the lack of Biffle corroboration (this list is not exhaustive- we may include the Oswald-wedding-ring similarity with Baker's-sameday affidavit-omission-arrested-Oswald and the Martha Jo Stroud document)

Belin knew full well that he would have to answer to the historians of his day, when the 26 volumes were published. And if the bump had been a falsehood, and the historians had recognized and publicized that, the whole edifice could have come tumbling down. He couldn't have pulled off this sleight-of-hand, even if he had to. It is impossible in a philosophical sense- there is too much of the aggregate that could potentially pop up and expose Belin's sleight-of-hand.

So the hoaxers thus have to paint Baker as a monster- a devious player in the coverup, stretching over a 23-year-coupling of film record.

But the coverup maestro was Truly, and it was Truly who used the lunchroom incident to help keep focus away from the west elevator.

[...]

[T]he "will-call counter bump" you refer to proves nothing, as it could have occurred later as well. -- Prudhomme

Dear Robert,

If the "counter bump" occurred later, then why did both Truly and Baker say it happened right after they entered the front entrance (about 30 seconds after the assassination), when they were making their way to the elevator / stairs to go up to the roof?

Why did they both include such an insignificant event in their statements? To add an element of "realism" to their l-i-e-s?

You have both of them as bad guys, huh?

--Tommy

More distraction, Thomas.

Of course the will-call counter bump happened right after they entered the TSBD. That is not in question here. When they entered the TSBD is something that is yet to be established.

Merely repeating over and over when you believe T & B entered the TSBD is not evidence, and does not make your belief true.

We have Shelley and Lovelady telling obvious lies in their testimonies, can you not imagine Baker and Truly doing the same?

More false argument and rhetorical questions, Robert.

Of course you missed, or more likely chose to ignore, the "(about 30 seconds after the assassination)" in my post, above.

Merely repeating over and over that, when asked, both Frazier and Molina said they didn't see Baker run up the steps doesn't mean he didn't do so.

Pauline Sander's statement to the FBI says that he did.

By the way, what were the names of the policemen you think Baker conferred with down at the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Whoever they were, did they ever say anything about Baker's running up to them to ask them some questions about where the shots had come from?

Baker became pretty famous for running into the "correct" building and looking for the assassin(s), didn't he?

If Baker had run up to the policemen at the intersection and the policemen had confirmed Baker's suspicions (based on the sounds of gunshots and the sight of flying pigeons) that the sniper had fired from an upper floor or the roof of the TSBD, don't you think those policemen would have wanted to get on the record as having suggested to Baker that he should look for the sniper in that building? ("We were right! We were right, but that dummy Baker let him get away!")

Wouldn't Baker's running up to them like that have stuck in their minds, especially since by the time they made their statements (if any), the "official" story was that someone (Oswald?) had shot the President from a 6th floor "sniper's perch" in the TSBD?

Don't you think it strange that, given these circumstances, the policeman or policemen whom you seem to think Baker ran up to, either: 1 ) thought it was too insignificant to relay to the authorities (in statements or reports), or 2 ) somehow forgot all about Baker's having run up to them?

--Tommy

Thomas

Twist this any way you care to. The fact remains that two people standing directly in front of the TSBD front door, Frazier and Molina, did not see Baker enter, despite the likelihood that Baker probably had to shove these two out of the way.

Even stranger, Frazier and Molina were facing the direction Baker was coming from, yet Roy Truly, who claims to clearly have seen Baker, was facing the opposite direction from which Baker was coming.

P.S.

Pauline Sanders' "statement"? I'll believe it when I see a signed copy of it.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Richard

Would you mind elaborating on this "lack-of-Biffle-corroboration" thing you keep going on about?

Kent Biffle was a reporter riding far back in the motorcade, and he left the car he was riding in to find out if there was a story in Dealey Plaza. However, prior to his entering the TSBD with what he called the "first wave of officers", he went down to the Grassy Knoll to investigate why all the onlookers were pointing to it.

What does Biffle have to do with Baker?

You're fond of calling people "hoaxers" and looking down your long nose at all of the other members here, yet you seem to agree to a certain hoax involving the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady.

Does that not make you a hoaxer, as well?

[Thomas Graves]

Richard

Would you mind elaborating on this "lack-of-Biffle-corroboration" thing you keep going on about?

Kent Biffle was a reporter riding far back in the motorcade, and he left the car he was riding in to find out if there was a story in Dealey Plaza. However, prior to his entering the TSBD with what he called the "first wave of officers", he went down to the Grassy Knoll to investigate why all the onlookers were pointing to it.

What does Biffle have to do with Baker?

You're fond of calling people "hoaxers" and looking down your long nose at all of the other members here, yet you seem to agree to a certain hoax involving the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady.

Does that not make you a hoaxer, as well?

Dear Robert,

Which parts of Shelley's and Lovelady's statements and testimonies do you believe, and which parts of their statements and testimonies do you disbelieve?

Thanks,

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

I believe they were on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

I do not believe they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes, spoke to Gloria Calvery after she returned from down near the Stmmons sign and only then walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yard, seeing Baker and Truly go up the steps when they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension. The ONLY way their story can be true is if Baker was delayed in ascending the steps, and his claim to being in the building within 22 seconds is a lie.

Only Baker's story or Shelley and Lovelady's story can be true. Of course, the odds are that all three of them, plus Truly, are telling a lie, or the FBI and WC lied for them, as was the case with Victoria Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

I believe they were on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

I do not believe they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes, spoke to Gloria Calvery after she returned from down near the Stmmons sign and only then walked down the Elm St. extension to the rail yard, seeing Baker and Truly go up the steps when they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension. The ONLY way their story can be true is if Baker was delayed in ascending the steps, and his claim to being in the building within 22 seconds is a lie.

Only Baker's story or Shelley and Lovelady's story can be true. Of course, the odds are that all three of them, plus Truly, are telling a lie, or the FBI and WC lied for them, as was the case with Victoria Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor.

Dear Robert,

Good, rational post.

Fine. So now we know what you believe didn't happen. Fantastic.

But I for one would like to know what you think did happen, especially as regards Shelley and Lovelady.

In other words, what do you think Shelley and Lovelady did do during the first three or so minutes, immediately after the assassination?

Do you have an opinion on that, Bob? If so, are you willing to share it with us?

Please?

Of course if you'd rather not, I totally understand...

I hope you don't think I'm being too "demanding."

Thank you in advance!,

--Tommy

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I think they did exactly what they said they did, in their first day statements.

Shelley walked across the extension to the concrete island, spoke briefly to Gloria Calvery, then went back inside the TSBD and phoned his wife.

Lovelady stayed on the steps, as seen in Darnell, and went back inside the TSBD eventually. He later returned outside and was seen on the steps in later films.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[...]

Mysterious double post. Maybe due to the slow, on again, off again WiFi at this coffee house?

Anyway, deleted.

Don't get all paranoid on me now.

--Tommy

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

What was that about?

[Thomas Graves]

I think they did exactly what they said they did, in their first day statements.

Shelley walked across the extension to the concrete island, spoke briefly to Gloria Calvery, then went back inside the TSBD and phoned his wife.

Lovelady stayed on the steps, as seen in Darnell, and went back inside the TSBD eventually. He later returned outside and was seen on the steps in later films.

Dear Robert,

Great!

So, obviously Shelley would have been out of view while he was talking to his wife on the phone. And apparently he didn't go back out onto the front steps after that phone conversation was over. Or did he? If he didn't, then he would have still been out of sight from all the photographers outside, darn it all.

Now what about Lovelady? Once again, have you actually proved that "Lovelady stayed of the steps, as seen in Darnell?"

You haven't? Well, have you considered asking Chris Davidson or your nemesis, Duncan MacRae, to blow up and "enhance" your "Lovelady on the steps, as seen in Darnell?" Maybe we'll get lucky, and someone will volunteer to do it!

Believe me, I would love for you to prove me wrong. Why? Because then at least we'd be making some definite progress in solving this case. But then, of course, we'd have another mystery: Just who were those two guys walking together down and / or arcoss Elm Street Extension about 30 seconds after the assassination? The Lone Ranger and Tonto?

Gosh darn it all.

--Tommy

PS Do you think Shelley and / or Lovelady went down to the railway yard / parking lot within ten minutes? Five minutes? Never during that early afternoon?

Regardless, did they take a short walk somewhere and enter the TSBD through a rear or side door?

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Look at this still that shows the "concrete island" and "Shelley" and "Lovelady".

Despite what Shelley and Lovelady may have told the WC in 1964, I still go back to Shelley's first day statement. I believe it to be the most factual of anything said by Shelley as, even if a conspiracy was afoot, the details had not been fully worked out on 22/11/63, and Shelley had no reason to fabricate yet.

According to his statement, Shelley ran across the Elm St. extension, where he met Gloria Calvery, who informed him of JFK being shot. If he and Lovelady proceeded down the Elm St. extension, it had to be after this meeting. Yet there they are, already out in the middle of the extension, heading west.

The real clincher comes when you watch the Darnell film in slow motion, and see Baker run past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" at a point where these two are already west of the concrete island.

Chris Davidson supplied an excellent gif of this very event, seen here:

https://spideroak.co...FILES/JFKVIDEOS

Password = assassination

As Calvery witnessed the shooting down Elm St. a good ways, was there enough time for her to run uphill up the sidewalk, speak briefly to Shelley, and for S & L to be that far down the extension? Remember, Baker has not even crossed the Elm St. extension yet and S & L are already way out in the middle of the Elm St. extension, and only 10-15 seconds may have elapsed since the third shot.

Should Gloria Calvery not be visible somewhere between the concrete island and the TSBD steps? I seriously doubt, after running uphill al that way, she was able to beat Baker into the TSBD. Where is she?

P.S.

At what point do "Shelley" and "Lovelady" look back to see Baker and Truly enter the TSBD?

Edited December 19, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Look at this still that shows the "concrete island" and "Shelley" and "Lovelady".

Despite what Shelley and Lovelady may have told the WC in 1964, I still go back to Shelley's first day statement. I believe it to be the most factual of anything said by Shelley as, even if a conspiracy was afoot, the details had not been fully worked out on 22/11/63, and Shelley had no reason to fabricate yet.

According to his statement, Shelley ran across the Elm St. extension, where he met Gloria Calvery, who informed him of JFK being shot. If he and Lovelady proceeded down the Elm St. extension, it had to be after this meeting. Yet there they are, already out in the middle of the extension, heading west.

The real clincher comes when you watch the Darnell film in slow motion, and see Baker run past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" at a point where these two are already west of the concrete island.

Chris Davidson supplied an excellent gif of this very event, seen here:

https://spideroak.co...FILES/JFKVIDEOS

Password = assassination

As Calvery witnessed the shooting down Elm St. a good ways, was there enough time for her to run uphill up the sidewalk, speak briefly to Shelley, and for S & L to be that far down the extension? Remember, Baker has not even crossed the Elm St. extension yet and S & L are already way out in the middle of the Elm St. extension, and only 10-15 seconds may have elapsed since the third shot.

Should Gloria Calvery not be visible somewhere between the concrete island and the TSBD steps? I seriously doubt, after running uphill all that way, she was able to beat Baker into the TSBD. Where is she?

Beats the heck out of me, Bob. It really does.

Have you actually found Calvery down on Elm before or during the assassination?

If so, where? By the Stemmons sign? By the Thornton sign? Where, pray tell?

Who was that Running Woman in Couch / Darnell, anyway?

So many questions, so little time...

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

It doesn't really matter exactly where Calvery was down Elm St. She simply did not have the time to run that far back up the street.

However, three women gave statements to the FBI corroborating her FBI statement, in that she was standing just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign when the assassination took place, and her own FBI statement stated JFK was directly in front of her at the time of the first shot, for whatever that is worth.

She came up the sidewalk and stopped to talk to Lovelady and Shelley on the concrete island. RAN UPHILL I might add. Aren't those two an awful long ways across the street, considering this conversation just took place? Hell, Baker hasn't even crossed the Elm St. extension yet, and they've already had their chat with Calvery and are halfway to the rail yard.

Shouldn't we be able to see Calvery between the concrete island and the TSBD steps??

P.S.

Considering Calvery would have come up the Elm St. sidewalk, the running woman in Darnell is on the wrong side of the Elm St. extension to be Calvery.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

It doesn't really matter exactly where Calvery was down Elm St. She simply did not have the time to run that far back up the street.

However, three women gave statements to the FBI corroborating her FBI statement, in that she was standing just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign when the assassination took place, and her own FBI statement stated JFK was directly in front of her at the time of the first shot, for whatever that is worth.

She came up the sidewalk and stopped to talk to Lovelady and Shelley on the concrete island. RAN UPHILL I might add. Aren't those two an awful long ways across the street, considering this conversation just took place? Hell, Baker hasn't even crossed the Elm St. extension yet, and they've already had their chat with Calvery and are halfway to the rail yard.

Shouldn't we be able to see Calvery between the concrete island and the TSBD steps??

P.S.

Considering Calvery would have come up the Elm St. sidewalk, the running woman in Darnell is on the wrong side of the Elm St. extension to be Calvery.

Dear Robert,

Please allow me to rephrase my question.

Which of the women in the extant photographs and films is Gloria Calvery, in your humble opinion? I'm talking, of course, about the photographs and films taken in the general Dealey Plaza area immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination.

Another way of asking that question is, "Based on the photographic evidence, where was Gloria Calvery standing immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination?"

Or am I assuming too much? Are you just going on her (perhaps unsigned) statement to the notorious FBI?

There were three women standing together by the Stemmons sign. Didn't you decide that the dark-complected one couldn't possibly have been Calvery, despite what my waitress friend said?

So what about the woman I helped you to "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, standing "behind" another woman near the Thornton sign?

Do you think she is Calvery?

Seein' as how you think Shelley probably fibbed a little about his activities after the assassination (as did probably Lovelady, Truly, and maybe even Baker), who's to say Gloria didn't fib a little to help cover for her buddy Shelley?

In other words, maybe they didn't meet on the "island" at all.

Say, wouldn't it be something if Gloria Jean Calvery, herself, shot JFK from an upper floor of the TSBD? Maybe with a little help from Jack Dougherty? And if she wasn't "covering" for Shelley and Lovelady, but they were actually covering for her?

Boy oh boy, that would really be something...

--Tommy

Edited December 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, you are the one who carried on so loudly about these FBI "statements" being beyond reproach, so I thought I'd just throw the evidence back at you and see how you dealt with it.

Even if Calvery was further up the street, where you believe you found her, Baker has not even crossed the Elm St. extension yet and Shelley and Lovelady are already well on their way to the rail yard.

When did the exchange with Calvery take place, giving Calvery only a few seconds to make it to the concrete island?

Even if Shelley was part of some vast coverup, and was privy to the assassination before it occurred, what purpose would it serve to insert a made up meeting with Gloria Calvery in his statement of 22/11/63?