Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Sandy Larsen]

Was Davis referring to Croy when she said the policemen had arrived? Yes, though not him alone He was one of the policemen who had arrived.

CROY WAS NOT "ONE OF THE FIRST POLICEMEN TO ARRIVE" HE WAS THE FIRST POLICEMAN TO ARRIVE.

Yes, Croy was the first policeman to arrive. Therefore he was one of the first policeman to arrive.

Virginia Davis spoke of the "the police" who had already arrived. Obviously Croy was one of them. ("Police" is plural, Croy -- being one man -- is singular.)

QUESTION: IF HONEST KEN DROVE TO 10TH & PATTON WHY IS HIS PERSONAL CAR NOT SHOWN ON FILM/PHOTOGRAPHS AT OR NEAR 10TH & PATTON?

Do you know what kind of card Croy was driving? Do you know if the cameras panned to all possible locations Croy might have reasonably parked his car? Do you know if Croy was still there when the movie cameras were rolling?

IF CROY DROVE TO THE SCENE IN HIS PERSONAL CAR, THEN IT IS NEAR CERTAIN THAT HE WOULD HAVE PARKED HIS CAR WITHIN A FEW FEET OF TIPPIT AND/OR HIS PATROL CAR. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ABSENCE OF CROY'S PERSONAL CAR AT THE SCENE?

In fact, her statement that "the police had already arrived" gives a clue as to what time period she was speaking of. Since she said "the police," and since "police" is plural, she must have been talking about when at least the second police officer had also arrive. And that could NOT have been when she and her sister in law first walked out the door. Unless they stayed inside for several minutes before walking out.

The bottom line is that Virginia Davis did not testify that Croy was there any earlier than when he said he arrived.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT VIRGINA DAVIS SAID POLICEMEN WERE ALREADY THERE AS SHE APPROACHED TIPPIT LYING IN THE STREET (SOME 10 MINUTES BEFORE OFFICER POE AND OTHER POLICE OFFICERS ARRIVED).

There was not a ten minute period between the time Virginia Davis approached Tippit and the time the police cars began arriving, as you suggest here. It was only a one or two minute period. You will see that in my timeline below.

NOW, I HAVE ASKED THIS QUESTION BEFORE, SANDY, AND I WILL ASK IT AGAIN....."IF NOT CROY, THEN WHO WAS THE POLICEMAN TO WHOM VIRGINIA DAVIS WAS REFERRING?"

Virginia Davis NEVER referred to any one particular policeman. She referred to "the police," which is plural. So she was referring to Croy and at least one other police officer when she said "the police were already there."

I've been looking at some Tippit timelines, and it appears that the next officer to arrive after Croy was Roy W. Walker. He arrived some time between 1:20 and 1:22. In other words, just a minute or two after Croy arrived. See the timeline below to discover how we know that.

I got the following timeline from these sources:

The JFK Assassination - A Researcher's Guide, by Don Becker (p. 192 -194)

The J.D. Tippit Website's Timetable.

Accessories After the Fact, by Sylvia Meager (No page numbers given in the online preview.)

Matrix for Assassination, by Richard Gilbride (p. 300)

Timeline

1:14 - Tippit is shot.

1:17 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio.

1:19 - The ambulance arrives.

1:20 - Croy arrives. (Assuming he is innocent and honest.) The ambulance leaves. Croy talks to Helen Markham until 1:30 or 1:35.

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene. Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive immediately after the Walker broadcast.

Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrived after Croy, but before broadcasting the killer's description. So he had to have arrived at about 1:21.

Note that within a one minute period of time, two policemen had arrived. And within a two minute period of time, four policemen had arrived

Virginia Davis said that the "police were already there" when she and her sister went out. She must have been referring to 1:21 PM in the time table. But she and her sister-in-law had walked out and seen Tippit's body, obviously before he had been loaded aboard the ambulance. Following is how I envision the timing:

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:14 - Tippit is shot.

1:15 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law are at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house.

1:!6 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard.

1:17 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio.

1:19 - The Davises wander over and view Tippit's body lying on the ground. The ambulance arrives and loads the body.

1:20 - Croy arrives and the ambulance leaves. Croy talks to Helen Markham until 1:30 to 1:35.

1:21 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives.

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene. Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive immediately after the Walker broadcast.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

So, we are supposed to believe that Honest Ken Croy arrived in time to see Tippit loaded into the ambulance, talk to a lady witness for 10 minutes, find a second Oswald wallet (Ted Callaway said, "I'll tell you one thing, there was no wallet at the scene. If there were too many people would have seen it."), and then wait around for 1/2 hour (until approximately 1:40 PM) for Capt. Westbrook to arrive and give him the second wallet?

I don't know what you are having trouble with Jim. According to Croy's testimony, he had to have arrived at the scene at about 1:20, which is when the ambulance was about to leave. And he had to have left the scene after 1:40 or so, given that he saw the squad cars at the theater as he passed by. If Westbrook arrived at 1:40 as you say, then that was just 20 minutes after Croy arrived. Croy said he talked to a witness for about 15 minutes and that he turned over other witnesses to other officers. Then he left. If he did recover the wallet (my hypothesis), then he must have handed it over to Westbrook after speaking to his witness.

WELL, SANDY, CROY, ACCORDING TO VIRGINIA DAVIS, WAS ON THE SCENE MINUTES AFTER TIPPIT WAS SHOT (CIRCA 1:06 PM). OR WOULD YOU CARE TO IDENTIFY THE POLICE OFFICER TO WHOM SHE WAS REFERRING WHEN SHE TOLD THE WC "THEY WERE ALREADY THERE."

CROY, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, WATCHED TIPPIT BEING LOADED INTO THE AMBULANCE. THIS OCCURRED ABOUT 1:10 PM, AS TIPPIT WAS PRONOUNCED DEAD WHEN HE ARRIVED AT THE HOSPITAL AT 1:15 PM. MY POINT IS THAT CROY WAS ON ALLEGEDLY THE SCENE FOR AT LEAST 1/2 HOUR (FROM 1:06 TO 1:10 PM UNTIL ABOUT 1:45 PM), YET NEITHER HE NOR ANY POLICE OFFICER NOR WITNESS REPORTED HIS PRESENCE.

(Ted Callaway said, "I'll tell you one thing, there was no wallet at the scene. If there were too many people would have seen it.")

An early witness may have picked up the wallet, like some were picking up bullet shells. It's not necessary that everybody saw it. (What time did Ted Callaway arrive at the murder scene?) CALLAWAY WATCHED OSWALD AS HE WAS HURRYING SOUTH ON PATTON (1/2 BLOCK FROM THE SCENE). CALLAWAY THEN HURRIED TO THE SCENE, ARRIVING ABOUT 1-2 MINUTES LATER (ABOUT 1:08). IF ANY WINTESS PICKED UP THE WALLET, THEN THE DAVIS SISTERS, STANDING NEAR TIPPIT'S BODY, WOULD HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN.

Minutes later, when all police officers hurried to the Texas Theater we are supposed to believe that Croy had more important things to do, such as meet his wife for lunch (now late by 1 hour).

Croy was off duty. He went home. Not everybody is dedicated to their jobs. NO, HONEST KEN DID NOT GO HOME. HONEST KEN APPARENTLY REMAINED AT THE SCENE FOR 1/2 HOUR AND, ACCORDING TO HIM, GAVE THE SECOND WALLET TO WESTBROOK. WE DON'T KNOW WHERE CROY WENT AFTER HE LEFT 10TH & PATTON, UNLESS YOU CAN OFFER DOCUMENTED PROOF (OTHER THAN HIS HIGHLY-SUSPECT WC TESTIMONY).

And not everything that is different than what we would expect has a sinister explanation behind it.

Would anyone care to explain why neither Croy nor Westbrook nor any police officer at 10th & Patton wrote a report concerning the second wallet "found" at the scene of the Tippit shooting.

According to my hypothesis, Croy did write a report (and/or made a statement) wherein he reported finding the Oswald Wallet. (Other officers may have as well.) WONDERFUL. PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR THAT. The report(s) had to be eliminated because the official story was that Oswald's wallet was found on him at the theater.

ACCORDING TO YOUR HYPOTHESIS, NUMEROUS DALLAS POLICE OFFICERS, FBI AGENTS, AND A TV CREW WOULD HAVE TO BE ACCOMPLICES IN COVERING UP A SECOND WALLET. DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS WAS POSSIBLE? CAN YOU IDENTIFY THE DPD OFFICIAL WHO ISSUED SUCH AN ORDER? DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER FOR YOUR HYPOTHESIS?

That said, you're not suggesting that the second wallet wasn't at the scene are you? The video proves it was, doesn't it? So the second wallet was there, and certain police officers saw it, and yet there is no (surviving) report mentioning it. Doesn't this prove that either reports mentioning the wallet were destroyed, or the officers who saw the wallet were told not to report or talk about it?

CROY SAID THAT HE HAD POSSESSION OF THE WALLET AND GAVE IT TO WESTBROOK. THE VIDEO PROVES THE WALLET WAS AT 10TH & PATTON. FBI AGENT HOSTY SAID WESTBROOK HAD POSSESSION OF THE WALLET AND THAT WESTBROOK WAS THE LAST PERSON KNOWN TO HAVE THE WALLET. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT A SINGLE REPORT OR TESTIMONY WAS GIVEN CONCERNING A 2ND WALLET. IT APPEARS THAT A HIGH-RANKING OFFICIAL TOLD POLICE OFFICERS WHO SAW THE WALLET NOT TO REPORT IT. COULD POLICE OFFICERS, OR FBI AGENTS, HAVE WRITTEN REPORTS ABOUT THE SECOND WALLET AND THOSE REPORTS DISAPPEARED? OF COURSE, BUT THERE IS NO PROOF THAT REPORTS WERE WRITTEN. THE ONLY "PROOF" WE HAVE IS THAT THERE ARE NO REPORTS OR TESTIMONY TO BE FOUND. THE ABSENCE OF REPORTS AND TESTIMONY CONCERNING THE SECOND WALLET, NO MATTER HOW YOU EXPLAIN IT, HAD TO OCCUR IN ORDER TO HIDE THE PLANTING OF EVIDENCE AND THE SUBSEQUENT COVERUP. BOTH HONEST KEN AND WESTBROOK WERE INVOLVED.

Would anyone care to explain why neither Honest Ken nor Westbrook mentioned the second wallet during their WC testimony, or to Chief Curry, or to the HSCA, or to news reporters? Would anyone care to explain why this vital piece of evidence was not entered into evidence by either Westbrook or Honest Ken?

We all know the answer to that, Jim. Why are you asking it?

I'M ASKING BECAUSE THE SECOND WALLET, HANDLED BY HONEST KEN AND WESTBROOK, WAS NEVER MENTIONED IN A POLICE REPORT, WC TESTIMONY, HSCA TESTIMONY, ETC. THE PLANTING AND COVERUP OF THE SECOND WALLET INVOLVED BOTH HONEST KEN AND WESTBROOK. WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT BOTH MEN WERE INVOLVED IN A COVERUP THAT INVOLVED THE MURDER OF A DALLAS POLICEMAN, THEN THE ALL TESTIMONY AND WRITTEN REPORTS OF BOTH MEN BECOME SUSPECT.

Would a lawyer on this forum please explain the consequences of police officers withholding a vital piece of evidence and then destroying that evidence (the second wallet that was allegedly "found" at the scene of Tippit's murder)? Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to why Honest Ken and Capt. Westbrook's possession of a second wallet AT 10th & Patton does not scream "PLANTED EVIDENCE" AND "COVERUP" ??

You're singing to the choir, Jim. We all believe the wallet was planted and then covered up. That it was planted is a part of my hypothesis. My hypothesis states that the wallet was planted by the shooter, not Westbrook. But it's just a hypothesis. Westbrook may very well have planted the wallet.

IF THE WALLET WAS PLANTED BY THE SHOOTER, THEN WHY DID NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS SEE IT? IF THE WALLET WAS FOUND AT THE SCENE, REGARDLESS OF WHO FOUND IT, THEN WHY WAS IT NOT INITIALED BY THE OFFICER WHO FOUND IT, TURNED OVER BY THAT OFFICER TO HOMICIDE AND ROBBERY, PHOTOGRAHED, AND A REPORT WRITTEN BY THE OFFICER WHO FOUND THE ITEM. IF HONEST KEN "INNOCENTLY FOUND" THE WALLET, WHICH HE CLAIMED TO HAVE DONE 30 YEARS LATER, THEN WHY DID HE DO OR SAY NOTHING? IT APPEARS TO ME, A NON-LAWYER, THAT HONEST KEN IS JUST AS GUILTY AS WESTBROOK IN THE WITHHOLDING OF EVIDENCE AND THE DESTRUCTION OF EVIDENCE.

THE FACT THAT NOBODY SAW A WALLET AT THE TIPPIT MURDER SCENE, AND HONEST KEN SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE WALLET FOR 30 YEARS, IS THE BEST "PROOF" THAT THE SECOND WALLET WAS BROUGHT TO THE SCENE BY THE MAN WHO FIRST PRODUCED THE WALLET--CAPT. W.R. WESTBROOK. THE FACT THAT HONEST KEN SAID THAT HE GAVE THE WALLET TO WESTBROOK MAKES HIM AN ACCOMPLICE TO THE PLANTING OF EVIDENCE AND THE COVERUP.

NOW, IF YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT DPD OFFICIALS (OTHER THAN WESTBROOK) HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE SECOND WALLET, AND ORDERED POLICE OFFICERS TO IGNORE THE SECOND WALLET, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE PROVIDE SUCH DOCUMENTATION.

BY THE WAY, AFTER CAPT WESTBROOK ALLEGEDLY FOUND THE WHITE JACKET ALLEGEDLY DISCARDED BY OSWALD, THE JACKET WAS INITIALED BY DPD OFFICERS, A REPORT WRITTEN BY WESTBROOK, PHOTOGRAPHED, AND TURNED OVER TO HOMICIDE AND ROBBERY. THAT'S STANDARD POLICE PROCEEDURE.

You repeatedly ask me to provide proof of my hypothesis. (That Tippit's killer planted the second Oswald wallet, and Sgt. Croy recovered it as he said he did.) I don't have proof.

Why don't you show me proof that Sgt. Croy was involved in the Tippit killing and that Westbrook planted the gun?

At least I'm willing to admit that what I'm putting forward is just a hypothesis.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

However I'm not convinced that the person they call LEE Oswald was necessarily the person who shot Tippit. Or all the other HARVEY impersonators who did various things in the name of LHO. I think the Oswald Project could have used a number of impersonators, some of whom who didn't resemble HARVEY at all.

BUT, SANDY, ON 11/22/63 THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN IN DEALEY PLAZA WHO SEVERAL PEOPLE SAW GET INTO THE NASH RAMBLER AND THESE PEOPLE SAID THE YOUNG MAN WAS IDENTICAL TO "LEE HARVEY OSWALD." A FEW BLOCKS AWAY, ON ELM STREET, HARVEY OSWALD (LATER ARRESTED BY THE POLICE) WAS RIDING ON MCWATTERS' BUS (FOLLOWED BY THE TAXI RIDE WITH WILLIAM WHALEY).

AT 10TH & PATTON SEVERAL WITNESSES SAID THE MAN WHO SHOT TIPPIT (LEE OSWALD) WAS IDENTICAL WITH THE MAN ARRESTED BY THE DALLAS POLICE (HARVEY OSWALD).

A DEPUTY SHERIFF SAID THAT THE YOUNG MAN HE SAW IN THE BALCONY OF THE TEXAS THEATER (LEE OSWALD) WAS IDENTICAL TO THE MAN ARRESTED BY THE POLICE IN THE LOWER SECTION OF THE THEATER (HARVEY OSWALD).

WHILE HARVEY OSWALD WAS SITTING IN THE BACK OF A POLICE CAR EN ROUTE TO THE POLICE STATION, A YOUNG MAN (LEE OSWALD) WAS BROUGHT OUT THE REAR OF THE THEATER AND PLACED IN A POLICE CAR.

WHILE HARVEY OSWALD WAS SITTING IN JAIL, T.F. WHITE SAW A YOUNG MAN (LEE OSWALD) SITTING IN A CAR ACROSS THE STREET FROM HIS WORK PLACE. MR. WHITE APPROACHED THE CAR, LOOKED DIRECTLY AT THE DRIVER, THE LATER TOLD POLICE, FBI, AND THE FUTURE MAYOR OF DALLAS THAT THE YOUNG MAN WAS "LEE HARVEY OSWALD."

A CIA AIRCRAFT, EN ROUTE TO NEW MEXICO, LANDED IN THE TRINITY RIVER, A 10 MINUTE DRIVE FROM THE TEXAS THEATER. A PASSENGER ON THIS PLANE, MR. VINSON, LATER SAID THAT A YOUNG MAN (LEE OSWALD) SOON ARRIVED BY CAR, BOARDED THE PLANE, AND THE PLANE TOOK OFF AND LANDED IN ROSWELL, NM. MR. VINSON SAID THE YOUNG MAN WAS IDENTICAL TO LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

NOW, SANDY, I AM SURE YOU REALIZE THAT IF ONLY ONE OF THE ABOVE WERE TRUE, THEN THERE WERE TWO "LEE HARVEY OSWALDS" ON 11/22/63. BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND "LEE HARVEY OSWALD," THEN YOU SHOULD BEGIN LOOKING AT THE TWO OSWALDS FROM 11/22/63 AND WORK BACKWARDS, MONTH BY MONTH, YEAR BY YEAR (1962, 1961, 1960, 1959...1947), YOU WILL FIND EXAMPLE AFTER EXAMPLE OF HARVEY AND LEE, OFTEN LIVING IN THE SAME CITY AT THE SAME TIME.

NOW, COULD THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN ONE "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" IN THE OSWALD PROJECT? YES, OF COURSE. BUT WHERE IS THE PROOF? WHERE IS THE PROOF OF A THIRD OR FOURTH OSWALD?

THE OSWALD PROJECT WAS A HIGH-LEVEL CIA PLAN USED TO INFILTRATE A VERY YOUNG (8-9 YEARS OLD) RUSSIAN SPEAKING REFUGEE FROM WWII (HARVEY) INTO THE SOVIET UNION IN 1959 (NOW AGE 19) BY USING LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S BIOGRAPHICAL HISTORY. TWO YOUNG BOYS (HARVEY AND LEE) WERE PLACED SIDE BY SIDE (NOT LITERALLY, BUT ALWAYS NEARBY) FOR 10-12 YEARS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING HARVEY FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE OF LEE OSWALD AND HIS SCHOOLS, FRIENDS, CITIES, FAMILY LIFE, ETC (THIS WAS ALL PRIOR TO OSWALD'S "DEFECTION" IN 1959).

AFTER HARVEY RETURNED TO THE USA, IN MID-1962, PLANS WERE MADE TO ASSASSINATE JFK. IF THE CIA USED A THIRD OR FOURTH "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DURING THE MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ASSASSINATION. PERSONALLY, I THINK THIS FAR TOO RISKY WHEN PLANNING THE ASSASSINATION OF A U.S. PRESIDENT. WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF THE ALICE, TEXAS INCIDENTS, WHEN, WHY, AND WHERE WERE THE THIRD AND FOURTH OSWALD USED? FOR WHAT PURPOSE? APPEARANCES OF A SECOND OSWALD ARE DIFFICULT ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN (SPORTS DROME RIFLE RANGE, RALPH YATES, MCBRIDE, ETC), BUT APPEARANCES OF A THIRD AND/OR FOURTH OSWALD WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN, AND PERHAPS CAUSE PEOPLE TO WONDER ABOUT THE INVOLVEMENT OF INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES. ADDITIONALLY, THERE IS NO DOCUMENTATION OR TESTIMONY THAT INDICATES A THIRD AND FOURTH OSWALD. FURTHERMORE, AFTER THE PRESIDENT WAS KILLED, THE THIRD AND FOURTH LHO'S WOULD MOST CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE (AS WAS THE SECOND LHO--HARVEY).

THIRD OR FOURTH OSWALDS?? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE??

There's no need to yell, Jim. In my post you're replying to I said:

"I do believe they [Jim and John Armstrong) have a strong case for HARVEY and LEE."

So you see, I'm in agreement with you guys.

You ask where the evidence is for an Oswald impersonator besides LEE Oswald. How about this:

Didn’t mean to yell, Sandy. I was simply pointing out all of the witnesses who, within a half hour of JFK’s assassination, thought the man they saw was Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald when in fact they had seen American-born LEE Oswald. The American (LEE) not only resembled HARVEY, but most of these witnesses said that this man was LHO (Harvey).

The photo of the man you posted originated with the CIA in Mexico City. To this day nobody knows the identity of this person. This man never impersonated Oswald. In fact, I can’t think of a single incident—with the possible exception of the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City--in which someone impersonated Oswald (HARVEY) who did not resemble him. Can you?

By the way, the name “Oswald Project” was not the creation of John Armstrong. This name was given in the testimony of a former CIA paymaster (James Wilcott) who provided funds on an on-going basis for what he called the “Oswald Project.” You can read his testimony HERE.

[Jim Hargrove]

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:14 - Tippit is shot. (Since Tippit was declared dead at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, I'd have to conclude this is not a very good start to a timeline. Have you taken the time to read the testimonies of various witnesses who said the shooting occurred at 1:06 PM?)

1:15 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law are at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house. (Sandy, if you knew when Helen Markham said the shooting occurred, you would not post this.)

1:!6 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard.

1:17 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio. (Did you know that Bowley looked at his watch when he arrived and said it was 1:10 PM?)

1:19 - The Davises wander over and view Tippit's body lying on the ground. Virginia Davis said they walked over after the shooter disappeared around the corner of their house. The ambulance arrives and loads the body. Perhaps you would care to explain why Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital four minutes EARLIER, at 1:15 PM.

1:20 - Croy arrives and the ambulance leaves. Croy talks to Helen Markham until 1:30 to 1:35. No. Croy arrived at 1:06 PM, spoke with an unknown witness who he said was watering her lawn. (Why do you state the witness was Helen Markham? Please try to be accurate with your posts.)

1:21 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives.

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene. Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive immediately after the Walker broadcast. If the police tapes can be trusted, then the first police officers, other than Croy, arrived at 1:22 PM, some 15-16 minutes after Croy arrived.

Sandy, you really should read the testimony of the witnesses and record the times they gave accordingly. To rely on an author's opinion about a timeline, in the absence of witness testimony, is like relying on the Warren Commission. For example, did you know that Mrs. Higgins was watching television when the TV announcer reported the time at 1:06 PM. Mrs. Higgins said she heard the shots almost simultaneously. Please, Sandy, record witness statements as to the time and present a witness-based timeline.

[Sandy Larsen]

Jim,

I was unaware that the Tippit timetable was in dispute. And I was surprised to find that the four sources I used for my timetable agree with each other and yet are all wrong.

Anyway, I've updated my time tables accordingly. The correction in timing doesn't change the fact that the second officer to arrive did so shortly after Croy did. My time table shows that he arrived one to four minutes after Croy did. But that one minute minimum is there only because of the fact that I rounded off all the time to complete minutes. Its very much possible that the second witness to arrive did so within seconds after Croy. There is no testimony I'm aware of that rules that possibility out.

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:14 - Tippit is shot. (Since Tippit was declared dead at Methodist Hospital at 1:15, I'd have to conclude this is not a very good start to a timeline. Have you taken the time to read the testimonies of various witnesses who said the shooting occurred at 1:06 PM?)

1:15 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law are at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house. (Sandy, if you knew when Helen Markham said the shooting occurred, you would not post this.)

1:!6 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard.

1:17 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio. (Did you know that Bowley looked at his watch when he arrived and said it was 1:10 PM?)

1:19 - The Davises wander over and view Tippit's body lying on the ground. Virginia Davis said they walked over after the shooter disappeared around the corner of their house. The ambulance arrives and loads the body. Perhaps you would care to explain why Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital four minutes EARLIER, at 1:15 PM.

1:20 - Croy arrives and the ambulance leaves. Croy talks to Helen Markham until 1:30 to 1:35. No. Croy arrived at 1:06 PM, spoke with an unknown witness who he said was watering her lawn. (Why do you state the witness was Helen Markham? Please try to be accurate with your posts.)

No, Croy arrived at about 1:13, not 1:06. There were no policemen at the scene when Virgina Davis went to her front door, and that was definitely after 1:06.

Croy couldn't remember the name of his hysterical female witness who actually saw the shooting. (Gee, sounds a lot like Helen Markham, doesn't it.)

1:21 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives.

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene. Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive immediately after the Walker broadcast. If the police tapes can be trusted, then the first police officers, other than Croy, arrived at 1:22 PM, some 15-16 minutes after Croy arrived.

The 1:22 time stamp on the tape doesn't show when the officers arrived. It shows when they reported the description of the shooter. The officers had to do some interviewing before they reported the description. And thus they had to have arrived before 1:22.

Sandy, you really should read the testimony of the witnesses and record the times they gave accordingly. To rely on an author's opinion about a timeline, in the absence of witness testimony, is like relying on the Warren Commission. For example, did you know that Mrs. Higgins was watching television when the TV announcer reported the time at 1:06 PM. Mrs. Higgins said she heard the shots almost simultaneously. Please, Sandy, record witness statements as to the time and present a witness-based timeline.

Corrected Timeline

1:06 - Tippit is shot. [Time Witnesses: Helen Markham & Margie Higgins (in The Girl on the Stairs)]

1:10 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio. [Time Witness: T.F. Bowley]

1:12 - The ambulance arrives.

1:13 - Croy arrives. (Assuming he is innocent and honest.) The ambulance leaves. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham.

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene. [Time: Radio log transcript.]

According to Officer Poe's WC testimony, Walker arrived AFTER he and patrolman Jez arrived. They interviewed an excited Helen Markham, got a description of the shooter, and gave it to Walker for him to broadcast.

So Poe was the second officer to arrive. He arrived some time between 1:13 and 1:17, if we allow a 5 minute interview with Markham.

Virginia Davis said that the "police were already there" when she and her sister went out. She must have been referring to time between 1:14 to 1:17 PM in the time table. But she and her sister-in-law had walked out and seen Tippit's body, obviously before he had been loaded aboard the ambulance. Following is how I envision the timing:

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:06 - Tippit is shot.

1:07 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law are at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house.

1:08 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard.

1:10 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio.

1:12 - The Davises wander over and view Tippit's body lying on the ground. The ambulance arrives and the body is loaded.

1:13 - Croy arrives and the ambulance leaves. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham.

1:14 to 1:17 - Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive, and interview an excited Helen Markham.

1:15 to 1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives. Officer Poe gives Markham's description of the shooter to Walker for him to broadcast..

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene.

[Sandy Larsen]

However I'm not convinced that the person they call LEE Oswald was necessarily the person who shot Tippit. Or all the other HARVEY impersonators who did various things in the name of LHO. I think the Oswald Project could have used a number of impersonators, some of whom who didn't resemble HARVEY at all.

BUT, SANDY, ON 11/22/63 THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN IN DEALEY PLAZA WHO SEVERAL PEOPLE SAW GET INTO THE NASH RAMBLER AND THESE PEOPLE SAID THE YOUNG MAN WAS IDENTICAL TO "LEE HARVEY OSWALD." A FEW BLOCKS AWAY, ON ELM STREET, HARVEY OSWALD (LATER ARRESTED BY THE POLICE) WAS RIDING ON MCWATTERS' BUS (FOLLOWED BY THE TAXI RIDE WITH WILLIAM WHALEY).

AT 10TH & PATTON SEVERAL WITNESSES SAID THE MAN WHO SHOT TIPPIT (LEE OSWALD) WAS IDENTICAL WITH THE MAN ARRESTED BY THE DALLAS POLICE (HARVEY OSWALD).

A DEPUTY SHERIFF SAID THAT THE YOUNG MAN HE SAW IN THE BALCONY OF THE TEXAS THEATER (LEE OSWALD) WAS IDENTICAL TO THE MAN ARRESTED BY THE POLICE IN THE LOWER SECTION OF THE THEATER (HARVEY OSWALD).

WHILE HARVEY OSWALD WAS SITTING IN THE BACK OF A POLICE CAR EN ROUTE TO THE POLICE STATION, A YOUNG MAN (LEE OSWALD) WAS BROUGHT OUT THE REAR OF THE THEATER AND PLACED IN A POLICE CAR.

WHILE HARVEY OSWALD WAS SITTING IN JAIL, T.F. WHITE SAW A YOUNG MAN (LEE OSWALD) SITTING IN A CAR ACROSS THE STREET FROM HIS WORK PLACE. MR. WHITE APPROACHED THE CAR, LOOKED DIRECTLY AT THE DRIVER, THE LATER TOLD POLICE, FBI, AND THE FUTURE MAYOR OF DALLAS THAT THE YOUNG MAN WAS "LEE HARVEY OSWALD."

A CIA AIRCRAFT, EN ROUTE TO NEW MEXICO, LANDED IN THE TRINITY RIVER, A 10 MINUTE DRIVE FROM THE TEXAS THEATER. A PASSENGER ON THIS PLANE, MR. VINSON, LATER SAID THAT A YOUNG MAN (LEE OSWALD) SOON ARRIVED BY CAR, BOARDED THE PLANE, AND THE PLANE TOOK OFF AND LANDED IN ROSWELL, NM. MR. VINSON SAID THE YOUNG MAN WAS IDENTICAL TO LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

NOW, SANDY, I AM SURE YOU REALIZE THAT IF ONLY ONE OF THE ABOVE WERE TRUE, THEN THERE WERE TWO "LEE HARVEY OSWALDS" ON 11/22/63. BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND "LEE HARVEY OSWALD," THEN YOU SHOULD BEGIN LOOKING AT THE TWO OSWALDS FROM 11/22/63 AND WORK BACKWARDS, MONTH BY MONTH, YEAR BY YEAR (1962, 1961, 1960, 1959...1947), YOU WILL FIND EXAMPLE AFTER EXAMPLE OF HARVEY AND LEE, OFTEN LIVING IN THE SAME CITY AT THE SAME TIME.

NOW, COULD THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN ONE "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" IN THE OSWALD PROJECT? YES, OF COURSE. BUT WHERE IS THE PROOF? WHERE IS THE PROOF OF A THIRD OR FOURTH OSWALD?

THE OSWALD PROJECT WAS A HIGH-LEVEL CIA PLAN USED TO INFILTRATE A VERY YOUNG (8-9 YEARS OLD) RUSSIAN SPEAKING REFUGEE FROM WWII (HARVEY) INTO THE SOVIET UNION IN 1959 (NOW AGE 19) BY USING LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S BIOGRAPHICAL HISTORY. TWO YOUNG BOYS (HARVEY AND LEE) WERE PLACED SIDE BY SIDE (NOT LITERALLY, BUT ALWAYS NEARBY) FOR 10-12 YEARS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE RUSSIAN-SPEAKING HARVEY FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE OF LEE OSWALD AND HIS SCHOOLS, FRIENDS, CITIES, FAMILY LIFE, ETC (THIS WAS ALL PRIOR TO OSWALD'S "DEFECTION" IN 1959).

AFTER HARVEY RETURNED TO THE USA, IN MID-1962, PLANS WERE MADE TO ASSASSINATE JFK. IF THE CIA USED A THIRD OR FOURTH "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DURING THE MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ASSASSINATION. PERSONALLY, I THINK THIS FAR TOO RISKY WHEN PLANNING THE ASSASSINATION OF A U.S. PRESIDENT. WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF THE ALICE, TEXAS INCIDENTS, WHEN, WHY, AND WHERE WERE THE THIRD AND FOURTH OSWALD USED? FOR WHAT PURPOSE? APPEARANCES OF A SECOND OSWALD ARE DIFFICULT ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN (SPORTS DROME RIFLE RANGE, RALPH YATES, MCBRIDE, ETC), BUT APPEARANCES OF A THIRD AND/OR FOURTH OSWALD WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN, AND PERHAPS CAUSE PEOPLE TO WONDER ABOUT THE INVOLVEMENT OF INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES. ADDITIONALLY, THERE IS NO DOCUMENTATION OR TESTIMONY THAT INDICATES A THIRD AND FOURTH OSWALD. FURTHERMORE, AFTER THE PRESIDENT WAS KILLED, THE THIRD AND FOURTH LHO'S WOULD MOST CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE (AS WAS THE SECOND LHO--HARVEY).

THIRD OR FOURTH OSWALDS?? WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE??

There's no need to yell, Jim. In my post you're replying to I said:

"I do believe they [Jim and John Armstrong) have a strong case for HARVEY and LEE."

So you see, I'm in agreement with you guys.

You ask where the evidence is for an Oswald impersonator besides LEE Oswald. How about this:

Didn’t mean to yell, Sandy. I was simply pointing out all of the witnesses who, within a half hour of JFK’s assassination, thought the man they saw was Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald when in fact they had seen American-born LEE Oswald. The American (LEE) not only resembled HARVEY, but most of these witnesses said that this man was LHO (Harvey).

The photo of the man you posted originated with the CIA in Mexico City. To this day nobody knows the identity of this person. This man never impersonated Oswald. In fact, I can’t think of a single incident—with the possible exception of the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City--in which someone impersonated Oswald (HARVEY) who did not resemble him. Can you?

By the way, the name “Oswald Project” was not the creation of John Armstrong. This name was given in the testimony of a former CIA paymaster (James Wilcott) who provided funds on an on-going basis for what he called the “Oswald Project.” You can read his testimony HERE.

Jim,

I don't believe that HARVEY Oswald took a trip to Mexico city. If I'm right, then clearly somebody was there impersonating him. And we all know that somebody with broken Russian impersonated him in telephone calls. So even people who believe it was HARVEY in Mexico City have to admit that somebody was impersonating his voice.

So, who was impersonating HARVEY in MC? Suppose it was LEE Oswald. If that were the case, then there was a THIRD Oswald visiting Sylvia Odio back in the States. On the other hand, if the Oswald visiting Odio was LEE Oswald, then there was a THIRD Oswald in Mexico City.

This is just one reason I don't limit my thinking to only two Oswalds being in the Oswald Project.

[Jim Hargrove]

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:06 - Tippit is shot.

1:07 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law are at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house.

1:08 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard.

1:10 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio.

1:12 - The Davises wander over and view Tippit's body lying on the ground. The ambulance arrives and the body is loaded.

1:13 - Croy arrives and the ambulance leaves. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham.

1:14 to 1:17 - Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive, and interview an excited Helen Markham.

1:15 to 1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives. Officer Poe gives Markham's description of the shooter to Walker for him to broadcast..

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene.

You're trying to give Croy the benefit of the doubt, Sandy, but you've still got to stick to the facts. Young Mrs. Davis was in the duplex building at 400/402 Tenth St., right next to the building where Tippit was shot. It couldn't have been more than 50 or 60 feet from her front door to Tippit's body. Do you really think it took her four minutes to "wander over" those few feet? My guess is she did it in no more than 10 or 15 seconds.

What did she do then?

Mr. Belin. All right, after this, did police come out there?

Mrs. Davis. Yes; they was already there.

Mr. Belin. By the time you got out there?

Mrs. Davis. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Davis. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Davis. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and picked him up.

Dallas police tapes list the first arrival of policemen at the site of Tippit's murder at 1:22 pm. By any REASONABLE account, Croy got there at least ten or even 15 minutes before that.

[Tom Neal]

Sandy and Jim,

If you read Barbara Jeannette Davis' testimony, unlike her 16 year old sister Virginia, she is solid on the order of events. It's worth reading as it clarifies everything Virginia said, and provides much more info regarding the finding of the shells.

Barbara states that after the phone call which took very little time as she did no more than report a shooting at her address, she and her sister walked out of the house, and directly to the Patrol car. They were there until the police cars started arriving about 5 minutes after they arrived at the car. At that time they returned to their yard.

According to the ambulance log sheet, the ambulance arrived at the shooting scene at 1:18. I don't recall them making any statements that there were police on the scene when they arrived. If they didn't then no policeman arrived prior to 1:18. IIRC...

Tom

Edited July 5, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy and Jim,

If you read Barbara Jeannette Davis' testimony, unlike her 16 year old sister Virginia, she is solid on the order of events. It's worth reading as it clarifies everything Virginia said, and provides much more info regarding the finding of the shells.

Barbara states that after the phone call which took very little time as she did no more than report a shooting at her address, she and her sister walked out of the house, and directly to the Patrol car. They were there until the police cars started arriving about 5 minutes after they arrived at the car. At that time they returned to their yard.

According to the ambulance log sheet, they arrived at the shooting scene at 1:18.

Tom

Interesting. I'll re-read BJ Davis' testimony asap. In the meantime, though, I suspect (in addition to all the witnesses who said Tippit was shot more than 10 minutes before 1:18) most legal investigations would go with the Methodist Hospital's official time of death at 1:15, making the ambulance arrival at 1:18 impossible.

The DPD report also indicated time of death as 1:15 (though, it appears to be typed over the time of 1:09). Since the cops saw "doctors and nurses trying to bring the officer back to life," there is even more of a discrepancy between the ambulance log and the official time of death. Interesting, though.

[Tom Neal]

Sandy and Jim,

If you read Barbara Jeannette Davis' testimony, unlike her 16 year old sister Virginia, she is solid on the order of events. It's worth reading as it clarifies everything Virginia said, and provides much more info regarding the finding of the shells.

Barbara states that after the phone call which took very little time as she did no more than report a shooting at her address, she and her sister walked out of the house, and directly to the Patrol car. They were there until the police cars started arriving about 5 minutes after they arrived at the car. At that time they returned to their yard.

According to the ambulance log sheet, they arrived at the shooting scene at 1:18.

Tom

Interesting. I'll re-read BJ Davis' testimony asap. In the meantime, though, I suspect (in addition to all the witnesses who said Tippit was shot more than 10 minutes before 1:18) most legal investigations would go with the Methodist Hospital's official time of death at 1:15, making the ambulance arrival at 1:18 impossible.

The DPD report also indicated time of death as 1:15 (though, it appears to be typed over the time of 1:09). Since the cops saw "doctors and nurses trying to bring the officer back to life," there is even more of a discrepancy between the ambulance log and the official time of death. Interesting, though.

Jim,

Thanks for the additional info.

By no means am I certain of these times, but IMO, the 1:06 shooting time is the most believable, and the ambulance log, the least likely to have been tampered with.

The later the shooting occurred, the more likely it was that LHO was the shooter, so I don't trust anything that was said by DPD regarding the time of events. I also have seen JDT's (Death Certificate?) with a clear original time of 1:06, and the time 1:15 typed over it.

I can't speak for Dallas, 1963, but there are different official times of death. You're not legally deceased until you're "pronounced" dead by someone qualified to do so. So that's one TOD. Another is what TOD is determined by the coroner based on whatever data he has. It seems reasonable that the hospital TOD was when he was pronounced, but because the wound(s) were fatal, the coroner would state TOD as the time of shooting based on the information he was given by DPD.

Tom

[Jim Hargrove]

Tom,

You make some excellent points, and I agree that the most likely time of the shooting was about 1:06. Wouldn't you have to agree, though, that by many accounts the ambulance got to the scene much faster that the twelve minutes that would have expired between 1:06 and 1:18?

[Jim Hargrove]

Isn’t it interesting that Honest Ken Croy…

… was the only police officer known to have chosen to go home only minutes after the shooting of the President of the United States.

… cared nothing about the assassination of President Kennedy, but involved himself in the shooting of a police officer—without any orders or authority to do so.

… contradicted himself on numerous occasions in his WC testimony.

… forgot the names of each and every witness at 10^th and Patton, and forgot the names of each and every police officer at 10^th and Patton.

… was on site before the ambulance arrived, and therefore must have seen Ted Callaway take the gun from Tippit’s body and get into a taxi to look for the shooter. Why would a police officer, in uniform, allow a civilian to take a weapon from a dead police officer?

… said that he spoke with a witness who was watering her yard, yet no known witness to the Tippit shooting was watering their yard during the shooting.

… was able to go directly to the scene of the Tippit shooting when four different addresses were given by the police dispatcher.

… first said he was given the wallet by an unidentified witness, yet later said that he was the man who found the wallet.

… was the first officer on the scene of the Tippit shooting, yet failed to file one report about his activities at 10^th and Patton.

If anyone thinks that Honest Ken Croy or his testimony can be trusted, I invite them to read similar nonsense provided by him regarding his activities when Oswald was shot and killed by Jack Ruby two days later.

Click here to read Croy's testimony.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Tom Neal]

Tom,

You make some excellent points, and I agree that the most likely time of the shooting was about 1:06. Wouldn't you have to agree, though, that by many accounts the ambulance got to the scene much faster that the twelve minutes that would have expired between 1:06 and 1:18?

Jim,

The time that the ambulance service received the call (time stamped at 1:18) is the only question mark in the 1:06 shooting time. This would give LHO more time to arrive at the murder scene. However, this 'late' time would require convincing the ambulance company and crew to lie about the times, and that would be more than a bit suspicious to them. Would they lie?

The police were present at the hospital when JDT was pronounced. The only explanation of the 1:06 or 1:09 TOD was if they supplied that information. It was later changed to 1:15. DPD could have done the type-over at any time.

Barbara J. Davis called about 1:08 reporting a shooting (not knowing it was a police officer). IIRC T.F.Bowley looked at his watch and noted his arrival time as 1:10. The latest that DPD should have received his "Officer Down" call would be about 1:12. That is a long, long time for DPD to wait to make the ambulance call. Unless of course they wanted to be certain JDT did not survive the shooting...

1 minute to the shooting scene

3 minutes to load JDT

4-5 minute drive to hospital

2 minutes to ER

2 minutes to work on JDT, as they stated they did...

Total time: 12 (very optimistic) minutes

According to Bowley reporting at 1:12, they would not have pronounced JDT until 1:24... I only found this doc which pronounces JDT at 1:25, AFTER calculating the above times:

If they received a 1:18 call they certainly didn't pronounce him at 1:15, and given the 1:10 arrival time of Bowley, 1:15 couldn't be the time JDT was pronounced. IMO, the 1:15 time was the time DPD WANTED the shooting to have occurred, but it actually happened at 1:06.

Does DPD state a time that Barbara Jeannette Davis' call was received?

Tom

Edited July 6, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Jim Hargrove]

Tom,

Fascinating! The FBI tells us Tippit was pronounced dead at 1:25, based on Hughes Funeral Home records, but what could those records be, other than the official Death Certificate, which states time of death to be 1:15? Understanding the points you made in a previous post about this, I still do not trust the 1:18 time frame you based your timeline on. (Can you point me toward the evidence for the 1:18 ambulance call/arrival?)

At any rate, seems just as easy or easier to me to alter mobile ambulance logs than an official death certificate, though that’s not based on much. The real issue, as you said earlier, is that the FBI and soon the WC knew from the outset that there was a problem getting LHO to Tenth & Patton from N. Beckley in time to shoot Tippit at 1:06, and so there was always pressure to push the timeline later and later. Hoover MAY have realized that the problem was even worse, since, accounting for the white shirted and brown shirted Oswalds, area sightings suggested that “Oswald” took a less than direct route. The FBI report would be at the very top of my suspicious documents list.

I think the witness evidence suggests that the ambulance arrived at 10^th & Patton around 1:10, or even a minute or two earlier. For example….

Here is the WC testimony of Ted Callaway.

If you assume the shots he heard were at 1:06, and read his testimony carefully, think about how many minutes would have elaspsed until Callaway saw the ambulance arrive, load Tippit’s body, and then leave. Would you agree with these times?

1:06--PM-Callaway hears shots and runs out to the sidewalk.

1:07--PM-Callaway sees LHO cross the street, holding a pistol in his right hand. Says to LHO, "What the hell is going on?" Watches LHO as he continues south on Patton.

1:07--1:08 PM-Callaway (40 years old) runs 300 feet to Tippit’s patrol car. Rolled Tippit over. Placed Tippit's revolver on the hood of the police car.

1:08--1:10 PM-Callaway called police dispatch and saw the ambulance arrive, load Tippit's body, and leave the scene en route to the hospital. Callaway then took Tippit's gun and had taxi driver Scoggins drive him around to look for LHO.

And, btw, where was Honest Ken while all this was going on? Did he really permit Callaway to take Tippit’s service revolver into Scoggins’ taxi?

Let’s try another timeline, assuming the 1:15 ToD was pronounced when Tippit’s body arrived at Methodist Hospital.

Working backward from 1:15:

3-4 minutes from Tenth & Patton to the hospital.

2 minutes to get Tippit from the ambulance to the emergency room where he was declared dead.

Total of 5 or 6 minutes prior to 1:15, which would mean the ambulance arrived at around 1:09 or 1:10. One of the first calls, if not the first, to Dudley Hughes came from the taxi dispatcher within a minute or two after Tippit was shot. Ambulance driver Kinsey said he drove from Dudley Hughes to 10^th & Patton in about 1 minute (one city block).

SUMMARY: Tippit shot at 1:06 pm. Taxi dispatcher calls Dudley Hughes a 1:08 pm. Ambulance arrives at 1:09 pm. Tippit loaded into ambulance by 1:10 pm. Ambulance arrives at hospital at about 1:15pm. Tippit is dead on arrival.

If this timeline is accurate, then croy was on the scene at or prior to 1:09 or 1:10 pm. Doesn’t this match reasonably well with the davis sisters telephoning polic and then walking fifty or sixty feet to Tippit’s body before the ambulance arrived (circa 1:08-1:09)?

[Sandy Larsen]

Timeline (including police officers and Virgina Davis)

1:06 - Tippit is shot.

1:07 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law are at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house.

1:08 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard.

1:10 - Witness T.F. Bowley calls in the shooting via Tippit's radio.

1:12 - The Davises wander over and view Tippit's body lying on the ground. The ambulance arrives and the body is loaded.

1:13 - Croy arrives and the ambulance leaves. Croy talks to a "hysterical" witness, probably Helen Markham.

1:14 to 1:17 - Officer Poe and Patrolman L.E. Jez arrive, and interview an excited Helen Markham.

1:15 to 1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker arrives. Officer Poe gives Markham's description of the shooter to Walker for him to broadcast..

1:22 - Patrolman Roy W. Walker broadcasts the killer's description from the scene.

You're trying to give Croy the benefit of the doubt, Sandy,...

What I did was build a timeline based on eyewitness testimony, and then entered Croy's arrival afterward. I did nothing to make the timeline fit what he said.

...but you've still got to stick to the facts.

If you can show anything I've written to be wrong, then prove it to me and I'll fix it. Or show me some evidence and I'll consider it.

Young Mrs. Davis was in the duplex building at 400/402 Tenth St., right next to the building where Tippit was shot. It couldn't have been more than 50 or 60 feet from her front door to Tippit's body. Do you really think it took her four minutes to "wander over" those few feet? My guess is she did it in no more than 10 or 15 seconds.

No, I don't think it took the Davises four minutes to walk over to the car. My guess would be that they stayed in their yard for a while before deciding to walk over.

The reason I have a four minute delay there is to reconcile the best I could three things: Virginia Davis's WC testimony, her first-day affidavit, and the information Tom provided about her sister-in-law's testimony. If I were to ignore Virginia Davis's "the police were already there" remark and adopt her sister-in-law's conflicting testimony instead (which I think I should), then I would have the two of them going to the car right away and the police arriving afterward... five minutes later, I think it was. The four minute delay would be gone.

What did she do then?

Mr. Belin. All right, after this, did police come out there?

Mrs. Davis. Yes; they was already there.

Mr. Belin. By the time you got out there?

Mrs. Davis. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Davis. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Davis. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and picked him up.

Dallas police tapes list the first arrival of policemen at the site of Tippit's murder at 1:22 pm. By any REASONABLE account, Croy got there at least ten or even 15 minutes before that.

Jim, I'm going to call you out on this one. What evidence is there that the police first arrived at 1:22?

What I've read is that the DPD tapes show that Patrolman Roy Walker broadcast the shooter description at 1:22. He didn't immediately broadcast this upon his arrival. He had to get the information first.

Officer Poe arrived before Walker and interviewed Helen Markham. Walker then arrived and Poe gave the shooter's description to Walker for him to broadcast. If we assume Walker interviewed Helen Markham for five minutes, then he had to have arrived no later than 1:17.