Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Jim Hargrove]

Jim,

I had the same thought, but I can't decide whether or not he could have seen the police car or the person that got out of it. DB says that he was ducked down in his truck during the shooting and only got a good look at the gunman AFTER the shots were fired. After the shooter left, DB proceeded toward JDT, saw that he was dead, entered the police car via the left door and attempted to use the radio. Presuming he is telling the truth he would have missed seeing the 2nd man entirely, as he would have left the scene immediately following the shooting.

Has it been established how far back from 10th Street the police car was parked? Given Mrs. Holan's line of sight from directly across the street from the alley, it could have been parked almost anywhere along the alley. The fact that it was a police car and not an unmarked vehicle has to be considered as POSSIBLE evidence that this was a contingency plan.

This idea is well worth pursuing, and is the reason I tracked down the names and location of DB's siblings and children. If I had the time, I'd do it myself, but once I get my teeth into something I can't let go, so I don't dare get started.

Tom

From his description below, seems to me that Benevides saw at least some of the shooting incident, but I'd be interested in what others make of it.

It may be impossible to determine how deep into the driveway the second police car was positioned. Doris Holan died in 2000 and her account comes from Michael Brownlow and Bill Pulte. Decades earlier, Sam Guinyard told Brownlow something similar. Some magazine like Playboy also published a letter from an anonymous source claiming to have seen a man walk from the driveway toward Tippit's body. Sorry to be so vague, but unless I'm forgetting something, that's really all we have to go on for the second police car.

Interviewing Benavides' surviving family members might be helpful, but unless someone recalled him saying something specific about a second squad car or a man approaching the murder scene from the driveway, it might mean that Benavides' simply didn't want to involve his kids in something he himself felt was better avoided.

[Tom Neal]

From his description below, seems to me that Benevides saw at least some of the shooting incident, but I'd be interested in what others make of it.

Isn't this the same video I linked to in Post #135 ?

Interviewing Benavides' surviving family members might be helpful, but unless someone recalled him saying something specific about a second squad car or a man approaching the murder scene from the driveway...

Or it could reveal that DB believed the DPD was involved.

Supposedly, DB said he was harassed by the police, and he and Eddie's father-in-law believed that Eddie was murdered because he was mistaken for Domingo. Either someone made up the harassment, and the mistaken identity murder, or DB spoke to someone about it. I can't believe Domingo and his parents as well as his siblings never spoke of Eddie's murder, especially since Eddie's father-in-law and supposedly Domingo, didn't believe that his murder was accidental.

Contacting Eddie's children would also be a good idea. At some point in their lives they surely would have heard that their father was killed under suspicious circumstances. It would have to be explained WHY someone would want to kill Uncle Domingo. This would lead back to the JDT murder. Certainly Eddie's children would want to know every detail as to WHY their father was murdered.

[Jim Hargrove]

Isn't this the same video I linked to in Post #135 ?

Yeah, it seems to be. My short-term memory isn't getting any damned better as I continue to not get any damned younger.

Or it could reveal that DB believed the DPD was involved.

Supposedly, DB said he was harassed by the police, and he and Eddie's father-in-law believed that Eddie was murdered because he was mistaken for Domingo. Either someone made up the harassment, and the mistaken identity murder, or DB spoke to someone about it. I can't believe Domingo and his parents as well as his siblings never spoke of Eddie's murder, especially since Eddie's father-in-law and supposedly Domingo, didn't believe that his murder was accidental.

Contacting Eddie's children would also be a good idea. At some point in their lives they surely would have heard that their father was killed under suspicious circumstances. It would have to be explained WHY someone would want to kill Uncle Domingo. This would lead back to the JDT murder. Certainly Eddie's children would want to know every detail as to WHY their father was murdered.

Roger that, and you'd make a great coach!

In fact, you've inspired me to try and reserve a few minutes each day to give your suggestion a shot. Thanks for the great assist of providing all the names of Domingo's kids. I'll start with the sons first, since their names surely will not have changed over the years.

And I'll try to keep some sort of record of the first contact(s). If something really interesting occurs, no doubt WC loyalists will accuse me of coaching the kids so I can make Big Bucks being a Conspiracy Theorist^TM. Thanks again.

[Tom Neal]

Supposedly, DB said he was harassed by the police, and he and Eddie's father-in-law believed that Eddie was murdered because he was mistaken for Domingo. Either someone made up the harassment, and the mistaken identity murder, or DB spoke to someone about it. I can't believe Domingo and his parents as well as his siblings never spoke of Eddie's murder, especially since Eddie's father-in-law and supposedly Domingo, didn't believe that his murder was accidental.

Contacting Eddie's children would also be a good idea. At some point in their lives they surely would have heard that their father was killed under suspicious circumstances. It would have to be explained WHY someone would want to kill Uncle Domingo. This would lead back to the JDT murder. Certainly Eddie's children would want to know every detail as to WHY their father was murdered.

Roger that, and you'd make a great coach!

In fact, you've inspired me to try and reserve a few minutes each day to give your suggestion a shot. Thanks for the great assist of providing all the names of Domingo's kids. I'll start with the sons first, since their names surely will not have changed over the years.

And I'll try to keep some sort of record of the first contact(s). If something really interesting occurs, no doubt WC loyalists will accuse me of coaching the kids so I can make Big Bucks being a Conspiracy Theorist^TM. Thanks again.

Sorry for not offering to do it myself, and a HUGE thank you for taking on the task!

I'm definitely looking forward to anything you come up with. Especially, if Domingo really DID believe his brother was murdered in a case of mistaken identity.

Big bucks? Of course; that's why we're ALL doing this.

Tom

Edited June 28, 2016 by Tom Neal

[Jim Hargrove]

Another question about Reserve Sergeant Croy’s presence at the Tippit shooting...

Croy, and only Croy, said that he talked to a woman neighbor who witnessed the shooting for about 10 minutes. But nobody, not a witness nor any police officer provided testimony or a report that mentions Croy (by name) at the scene.

Virginia Davis said a police officer (who else but Croy?) was on the scene as she walked from her porch to where Tippit was laying in the street. Croy said that he watched as Tippit was loaded into the ambulance (prior to police arriving at the scene).

Moments after the shooting Benavides got out of his truck, approached Tippit's patrol car, and tried to use the police radio. Where was Croy when this was happening? Why didn't Croy use Tippit's radio to notify the police dispatcher about the Tippit shooting? Where was Croy when Ted Callaway used the police radio to call the dispatcher?

It would appear that Croy was at the scene when Tippit was shot and moments after Tippit was shot, but disappeared just prior to witnesses and police officers arriving at the scene. Croy's hasty exit from the scene may be the reason that Benavides gave the spent shell casings to DPD officer Poe. Croy and Virginia Davis are the only people who place Croy at the scene only moments after the shooting. Where is Croy’s police report concerning his presence at the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Replies would be MOST appreciated!!

[Sandy Larsen]

Another question about Reserve Sergeant Croy’s presence at the Tippit shooting...

Croy, and only Croy, said that he talked to a woman neighbor who witnessed the shooting for about 10 minutes. But nobody, not a witness nor any police officer provided testimony or a report that mentions Croy (by name) at the scene.

So far I see nothing unusual. Not every police officer present at a crime scene will necessarily be mentioned in somebody's testimony.

Virginia Davis said a police officer (who else but Croy?) was on the scene as she walked from her porch to where Tippit was laying in the street. Croy said that he watched as Tippit was loaded into the ambulance (prior to police arriving at the scene).

If Virginia Davis said a police officer was present at the crime scene as she walked toward Tippit, then why did her sister-in-law Jeanette -- who was with her -- call the police before they walked over to Tippit? She called the police because another woman (presumably standing over the body) yelled out to them that Tippit was dead and that they should call the police. (See Virginia Davis's affidavit.)

Okay, I just read Virginia Davis's WC testimony (recorded in John Armstrong's article) and she does indeed say policemen (plural!) were already there. But I think that John is reading her WC testimony too literally.

Moments after the shooting Benavides got out of his truck, approached Tippit's patrol car, and tried to use the police radio. Where was Croy when this was happening? Why didn't Croy use Tippit's radio to notify the police dispatcher about the Tippit shooting? Where was Croy when Ted Callaway used the police radio to call the dispatcher?

It would appear that Croy was at the scene when Tippit was shot and moments after Tippit was shot, but disappeared just prior to witnesses and police officers arriving at the scene. Croy's hasty exit from the scene may be the reason that Benavides gave the spent shell casings to DPD officer Poe. Croy and Virginia Davis are the only people who place Croy at the scene only moments after the shooting. Where is Croy’s police report concerning his presence at the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Replies would be MOST appreciated!!

This is what I think happened, based upon both Virginia Davis's first-day affidavit and her WC testimony:

Virginia Davis and her sister-in-law hear some shots and they run to the door of their house. Virginia see's a young man cutting across their yard and emptying a gun. The two step outside and a woman at the crime scene hollers to them that the man is dead, and that they should call the police. Davis's sister-in-law steps back inside, calls the police, and then goes out again. They see Tippit's body from a distance.

They watch and wait for the police to arrive before walking over to see Tippit's body close up. By this time there are numerous civilians gathered around. Shortly thereafter an ambulance arrives and loads the body into the ambulance. Then the police officers begin to arrive.

(The ambulance arrives first because it is dispatched from a funeral home located less than three blocks away. This according to Reclaiming History.)

This account is consistent with both Virginia Davis's first-day affidavit and her WC testimony

There was no policeman present right after the shooting. Not one that Virginia Davis, her sister-in-law, and the woman who hollered to them were aware of.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Another question about Reserve Sergeant Croy’s presence at the Tippit shooting...

Croy, and only Croy, said that he talked to a woman neighbor who witnessed the shooting for about 10 minutes. But nobody, not a witness nor any police officer provided testimony or a report that mentions Croy (by name) at the scene.

So far I see nothing unusual. Not every police officer present at a crime scene will necessarily be mentioned in somebody's testimony.

Virginia Davis said a police officer (who else but Croy?) was on the scene as she walked from her porch to where Tippit was laying in the street. Croy said that he watched as Tippit was loaded into the ambulance (prior to police arriving at the scene).

If Virginia Davis said a police officer was present at the crime scene as she walked toward Tippit, then why did her sister-in-law Jeanette -- who was with her -- call the police before they walked over to Tippit? She called the police because another woman (presumably standing over the body) yelled out to them that Tippit was dead and that they should call the police. (See Virginia Davis's affidavit.)

Okay, I just read Virginia Davis's WC testimony (recorded in John Armstrong's article) and she does indeed say policemen (plural!) were already there. But I think that John is reading her WC testimony too literally.

Moments after the shooting Benavides got out of his truck, approached Tippit's patrol car, and tried to use the police radio. Where was Croy when this was happening? Why didn't Croy use Tippit's radio to notify the police dispatcher about the Tippit shooting? Where was Croy when Ted Callaway used the police radio to call the dispatcher?

It would appear that Croy was at the scene when Tippit was shot and moments after Tippit was shot, but disappeared just prior to witnesses and police officers arriving at the scene. Croy's hasty exit from the scene may be the reason that Benavides gave the spent shell casings to DPD officer Poe. Croy and Virginia Davis are the only people who place Croy at the scene only moments after the shooting. Where is Croy’s police report concerning his presence at the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Replies would be MOST appreciated!!

This is what I think happened, based upon both Virginia Davis's first-day affidavit and her WC testimony:

Virginia Davis and her sister-in-law hear some shots and they run to the door of their house. Virginia see's a young man cutting across their yard and emptying a gun. The two step outside and a woman at the crime scene hollers to them that the man is dead, and that they should call the police. Davis's sister-in-law steps back inside, calls the police, and then goes out again. They see Tippit's body from a distance.

They watch and wait for the police to arrive before walking over to see Tippit's body close up. By this time there are numerous civilians gathered around. Shortly thereafter an ambulance arrives and loads the body into the ambulance. Then the police officers begin to arrive.

(The ambulance arrives first because it is dispatched from a funeral home located less than three blocks away. This according to Reclaiming History.)

This account is consistent with both Virginia Davis's first-day affidavit and her WC testimony

There was no policeman present right after the shooting. Not one that Virginia Davis, her sister-in-law, and the woman who hollered to them were aware of.

I just finished reading Sergeant Croy's WC testimony, here. (You need to skip over several pages of testimony to get to the Tippit related stuff.)

Croy certainly wasn't much of police officer (he didn't even file a police report re. the Tippit shooting) and wasn't much of a witness (he forgot a lot). But I don't see any reason to believe he wasn't telling the truth. He said he spoke to a female witness for five to ten minutes. He says that she actually saw the shooting, and that she said that the shooter leaned down and spoke to Tippit through the passenger window. So it seem that he was questioning Helen Markham.

Anybody, tell me how I am wrong. But I don't see any reason to suspect Croy of foul play.

EDIT:

Sergeant Croy was apparently having marital problems. He had been staying at his parents house, not with his wife, for a couple weeks before the day of the assassination. He had invited his wife to lunch that day and was supposed to meet her at a restaurant. Instead he got sidetracked by the Tippit shooting. He had planned to change out of uniform on his way to the restaurant, but didn't because he was late. This could explain why he didn't seem to take his job seriously that day and file a police report. He was probably preoccupied with his marital problems and with being late for lunch with his wife.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy,

I'll have more time for this tonight, but if you read Croy's testimony you'd have seen that he told the WC that he watched as Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, which arrived within a minute or two of the shooting (it started, indeed, just a block or two from Tenth and Patton).

In the 1990s Croy said that he himself gave the magic, disappearing wallet to Westbrook. This doesn't make you wonder just how involved this guy was in the Tippit shooting???

[Jim Hargrove]

DELETED: Double posted accidentally.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Anybody, tell me how I am wrong. But I don't see any reason to suspect Croy of foul play.

And so we have Dallas Police Department Reserve Sargent Kenneth Hudson Croy, the first Dallas cop to arrive at the Tippit murder scene. He's the man, he says, who gets the infamous wallet (though he doesn't remember how) linking Lee Harvey Oswald to Alek Hidell and therefore to the rifle that murdered JFK. Since no ambulance driver or other onlooker at 10th and Patton saw the wallet, we must assume Croy found it very early in the game, probably around 1:10 pm. And then he kept it to himself for about a half hour. Until Captain Westbrook arrived, and, Croy recalls, he gave it to Westbrook. For that period of nearly a half hour, Croy shows the wallet to no one, nor does anyone else see it.

(What's really happening, of course, is that Westbrook needed time to meet up with the Oswald in the white shirt who shot Tippit. From the white-shirted shooter, Westbrook probably got the wallet, the revolver, and perhaps the Eisenhower-type jacket. In the meantime, brown-shirted Oswald was already in the Texas Theater, no doubt looking for the contact he was told would holding a torn dollar bill matching one of the ones he was carrying.)

But lets get back to the story Honest Ken Croy wanted us to believe. Soon after hiding the wallet for a half hour and then handing it to Westbrook, Croy leaves 10th and Patton to go have a leisurely lunch with his estranged wife. He just happens, blind luck, to drive right by the Texas Theater where he sees police gathering. He wont be needed, though, because he needs to talk to his wife.

Apparently, Ken Croy is needed just two days later, on November 24th, Then he is stationed in the basement of Dallas City Hall at the very time Lee Harvey Oswald is led to his death. According to his affidavit and WC testimony, Honest Ken was standing right next to Jack Ruby, and actually talking to him, when Ruby lunged in front of Oswald and killed him. For a Reserve Sargent who wasn't needed at the very time Dallas Police dispatchers were frantically calling in off-duty cops, Honest Ken Croy sure managed to be in some interesting places. He sure didn't remember much, though.

By all means read Honest Ken's WC testimony (Sandy published the link above). I don't think even Burt Griffin believed him, do you? And these WC attorneys got the Big Bucks for being... uh... not very curious. Honest Ken waited thirty years to recall that he was the guy who handled the infamous wallet and gave it to Westbrook. He couldn't seem to remember another damned thing or write a report about anything at all, but he sure remembered that! His story just has honesty written all over it, don't you think?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Sandy Larsen]

Anybody, tell me how I am wrong. But I don't see any reason to suspect Croy of foul play.

And so we have Dallas Police Department Reserve Sargent Kenneth Hudson Croy, the first Dallas cop to arrive at the Tippit murder scene. He's the man, he says, who gets the infamous wallet (though he doesn't remember how) linking Lee Harvey Oswald to Alek Hidell and therefore to the rifle that murdered JFK. Since no ambulance driver or other onlooker at 10th and Patton saw the wallet, we must assume Croy found it very early in the game, probably around 1:10 pm. And then he kept it to himself for about a half hour. Until Captain Westbrook arrived, and, Croy recalls, he gave it to Westbrook. For that period of nearly a half hour, Croy shows the wallet to no one, nor does anyone else see it.

(What's really happening, of course, is that Westbrook needed time to meet up with the Oswald in the white shirt who shot Tippit. From the white-shirted shooter, Westbrook probably got the wallet, the revolver, and perhaps the Eisenhower-type jacket. In the meantime, brown-shirted Oswald was already in the Texas Theater, no doubt looking for the contact he was told would holding a torn dollar bill matching one of the ones he was carrying.)

But lets get back to the story Honest Ken Croy wanted us to believe. Soon after hiding the wallet for a half hour and then handing it to Westbrook, Croy leaves 10th and Patton to go have a leisurely lunch with his estranged wife. He just happens, blind luck, to drive right by the Texas Theater where he sees police gathering. He wont be needed, though, because he needs to talk to his wife.

Apparently, Ken Croy is needed just two days later, on November 24th, Then he is stationed in the basement of Dallas City Hall at the very time Lee Harvey Oswald is led to his death. According to his affidavit and WC testimony, Honest Ken was standing right next to Jack Ruby, and actually talking to him, when Ruby lunged in front of Oswald and killed him. For a Reserve Sargent who wasn't needed at the very time Dallas Police dispatchers were frantically calling in off-duty cops, Honest Ken Croy sure managed to be in some interesting places. He sure didn't remember much, though.

By all means read Honest Ken's WC testimony (Sandy published the link above). I don't think even Burt Griffin believed him, do you? And these WC attorneys got the Big Bucks for being... uh... not very curious. Honest Ken waited thirty years to recall that he was the guy who handled the infamous wallet and gave it to Westbrook. He couldn't seem to remember another damned thing or write a report about anything at all, but he sure remembered that! His story just has honesty written all over it, don't you think?

Jim,

At the very least I think you have to agree that Croy was not at the crime scene when witnesses began to gather around Tippit's body, when Virginia Davis and her sister-in-law first went outside. Because according to Davis's affidavit, a woman hollered over to them that Tippit was dead, and to call the police... which her sister-in-law did. Obviously that means that there were no policemen present at that time. (See Virginia Davis's affidavit.) I suppose Croy could have been hiding around a corner or something like that, but that would be pure speculation.

For sake of accuracy, John Armstrong needs to revise his narrative so that it doesn't state or imply that Croy was already present when Virginia Davis stepped outside her house. And that she witnessed him being there at that time. Because those are factually incorrect statements.

So what is there left after removing those incorrect assertions? The following:

1. A statement by Croy thirty years after-the-fact that he had recovered the wallet.

   I think it is unwise to build a case upon such an old recollection. The early evidence points to Westbrook being the person who introduced the wallet. Croy had plenty of time (thirty years) to be "convinced" that it must have been he who found the wallet. In other words, he may have simply played along after-the-fact and not been involved in the Tippit killing and Oswald framing.

2. Croy arrived at the crime scene before the ambulance had left with Tippit's body.

   Well, some officer had to be the first to arrive.

   The ambulance got there early because it was stationed nearby. Suppose it took a mere five minutes for the ambulance to drive to the scene and load the body. A policeman driving a car could easily have driven two or three miles in that time. That would be 16 to 24 city blocks where I live.

   Nothing unusual here.

3. Croy having a "leisurely" lunch with his estranged wife. (I don't know where you get that it was leisurely.) Given that they were separated, and that it occurred on the day of the assassination, Croy must have been using that unlikely event as an alibi.

   If you read the last page of Croy's WC testimony (here) you will discover that he and his wife were not separated. Read for yourself and draw your own conclusion:

   Mr. GRIFFIN. ....Did you live at your mother’s and dad’s house at that particular time?

   Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks.

   o

   o

   o

   Mr. GRIFFIS. You were living in your mother’s and dad’s house at that time?

   Mr. CROY. I slept there.

   Mr. GRIFFIS. Well, was your wife living there also?

   Mr. CROY. No.

   Mr. GRIFFIX. Were you separated from her?

   Mr. CROY. No.

   Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time?

   Mr. CROY. At that time.

   It sure looks to me like they had either had a terrible spat or were having marital problems at the time. The spat had occurred two weeks or less prior to the lunch date. So why would have Croy invited his wife to lunch? I imagine to try and reconcile their differences.

   This looks very innocent to me. I was once in the same situation when (like Croy) I was in my twenties -- including lunch dates -- and I can tell you that my work suffered as a result. My mind was preoccupied with the situation, and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Croy's was as well.

4. Croy drove past the the theater area on his way to his lunch date.

   A coincidence.

   Also, it's very possible that he noticed squad cars with sirens running zeroing in on a location, and he momentarily diverted from his intended path just to see what was going on. Who knows.

5. Croy was standing next to Ruby just before Ruby charged and shot Oswald.

   Another coincidence. I mean, why on earth would Croy intentionally stand next to Ruby if he were involved in the conspiracy? It would make no sense.

Sorry Jim, but I just don't see anything here other than a decision on Croy's part to go along with Westbrook's wallet story after-the-fact. Had Croy actually been part of the plot, he would have claimed from the beginning that he'd recovered the wallet. Even if only to his fellow officers.

[Ron Ecker]

Another coincidence. I mean, why on earth would Croy intentionally stand next to Ruby if he were involved in the conspiracy? It would make no sense.

Of course it would make sense. To encourage or reinforce Ruby. I imagine that Ruby standing there waiting with the task of shooting Oswald could use a little moral support. And from a public perspective what did it matter who was standing next to him, as the perps knew they could have Ruby execute Oswald on national TV and get away with it, as surely as they got away with blowing JFK's brains out in broad daylight? I mean, how many people have ever heard of officer Croy?

Edited June 30, 2016 by Ron Ecker

[Sandy Larsen]

Another coincidence. I mean, why on earth would Croy intentionally stand next to Ruby if he were involved in the conspiracy? It would make no sense.

Of course it would make sense. To encourage or reinforce Ruby. I imagine that Ruby standing there waiting with the task of shooting Oswald could use a little moral support. And from a public perspective what did it matter who was standing next to him, as the perps knew they could have Ruby execute Oswald on national TV and get away with it, as surely as they got away with blowing JFK's brains out in broad daylight? I mean, how many people have ever heard of officer Croy?

Okay, Ron, you thought of a way it could make sense. But still it is pure speculation.

[Ron Ecker]

Okay, Ron, you thought of a way it could make sense. But still it is pure speculation.

Yes, and if Croy was in fact standing beside Ruby, you can call it "another coincidence." But as I have stated before (with regard to the JFK assassination coincidences as well as the long list of 9/11 coincidences), I hate coincidences. But that's just me.

[Jim Hargrove]

Another coincidence. I mean, why on earth would Croy intentionally stand next to Ruby if he were involved in the conspiracy? It would make no sense.

Of course it would make sense. To encourage or reinforce Ruby. I imagine that Ruby standing there waiting with the task of shooting Oswald could use a little moral support. And from a public perspective what did it matter who was standing next to him, as the perps knew they could have Ruby execute Oswald on national TV and get away with it, as surely as they got away with blowing JFK's brains out in broad daylight? I mean, how many people have ever heard of officer Croy?

Well said, encouragement AND [finally!] an actual report from Croy--not to the DPD but to the plotters--in the event Ruby failed. But it goes beyond this....

Police were instructed to allow only cops, authorities, and reporters with proper press credentials into the basement that day. Ruby fit none of those requirements, but someone let him in nevertheless. Anyone care to guess what Dallas cop might have let Ruby in?