Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy,

John and I believe that Croy was at Tenth & Patton BEFORE Tippit was killed, sitting in a car driven by Captain Westbrook which was hidden in the narrow driveway between 404 and 410 E. Tenth, then blocked on Tenth by Tippit's patrol car. Look at the aerial photo below and see how narrow that driveway was. Only Mrs. Holan, in the second floor of the house directly across the street, was able to see over Tippit's car and down the narrow driveway.

The plan to pin everything on the brown-shirted Oswald now in the Texas Theater could only proceed when it was confirmed that Tippit was dead. That's why Westbrook was there. (Tippit and the white-shirted Oswald appeared to know each other. It wouldn't do for Tippit to wake up in a hospital bed and start talking about the guy who shot him.)

After Westbtrook determined Tippit was dead, he left Croy at the scene (perhaps at first hidden in the driveway) and drove to meet white-shirted Oswald to obtain the evidence that would soon be used to frame the brown-shirted Oswald. Out of Westbrook's car, and still hidden--or no--in the driveway, Croy did not have a police radio in hand. Either way, bystanders would neeed to call police.

-----------------------

Croy's whole saga of eating with his estranged wife is laughable. Here's how John described it on my website:

Croy told the WC that he was driving his car in downtown Dallas when he heard about the shooting of the President over his police radio. Minutes after the shooting, while driving past the court house, Croy saw police officers and asked if they needed any help. According to Croy, these officers said "no." Croy then said his wife (estranged) pulled up beside him driving her car and asked if he wanted to get something to eat. They agreed to meet at Austin's Bar-B-Que in Oak Cliff. This was Sgt. Croy's testimony, but it makes no sense. Croy was unable to identify the police officers who were standing in front of the court house. Croy said nothing about the large crowds in and around the court house, less than a block from the TSBD, on the most infamous day in Dallas history. Why would police officers decline Croy's offer to help, when off-duty police were being called at home and asked to return to duty? Why would Croy and his estranged wife allegedly agree to meet for lunch, only a few minutes after the President of the United States had been shot. Croy's testimony makes no sense, but it does give him an alibi that helps to mask and keep secret his activities and involvement with the murder of officer Tippit.

Sure are a lot of coincidences in this sordid case.

[Tom Neal]

Croy may well have been standing next to Ruby to assure that he carried out his assignment. Ruby could not plead that he had no opportunity to kill LHO if Croy was there as an observer who would report his failure.

Additionally, Ruby could have been challenged by another crop and removed from the basement. Croy could prevent this by stating that Ruby had permission to be present. This is implied by the very fact that he and Croy were conversing. Due to this it's unlikely anyone would bother Ruby, especially since he was well known to all.

Tom

[Tom Neal]

From a WFAA film clip taken at the murder scene:

Note the sergeant's stripes on the cop, and the plain clothes "cop" on the right. Would a civilian be allowed to examine "LHO's wallet" found at the murder scene? So much for any fingerprints... Clearly, they are displaying it for the cameraman. Odd, that the clip only shows a close-up of the wallet. At no time do we see the faces of these two.

Could this be Sgt. Croy and Captain Westbrook?

Tom

Edited June 30, 2016 by Tom Neal

[David Andrews]

Another coincidence. I mean, why on earth would Croy intentionally stand next to Ruby if he were involved in the conspiracy? It would make no sense.

Of course it would make sense. To encourage or reinforce Ruby. I imagine that Ruby standing there waiting with the task of shooting Oswald could use a little moral support. And from a public perspective what did it matter who was standing next to him, as the perps knew they could have Ruby execute Oswald on national TV and get away with it, as surely as they got away with blowing JFK's brains out in broad daylight? I mean, how many people have ever heard of officer Croy?

Is Westbrook also in the garage for "crowd control"?

[Sandy Larsen]

Croy may well have been standing next to Ruby to assure that he carried out his assignment. Ruby could not plead that he had no opportunity to kill LHO if Croy was there as an observer who would report his failure.

Additionally, Ruby could have been challenged by another crop and removed from the basement. Croy could prevent this by stating that Ruby had permission to be present. This is implied by the very fact that he and Croy were conversing. Due to this it's unlikely anyone would bother Ruby, especially since he was well known to all.

Tom

Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?

I recall reading (a long time ago) the following account : A cop was standing near the ramp leading to the basement from where Oswald was to emerge. Someone was talking to the cop. Somebody else walked past the cop, down the ramp, to the basement. I think it was the guy talking to the cop who noticed that the cop didn't care that the guy walked down the ramp. And then he (or was it somebody who read this account?) wondered if the guy who walked down the ramp was Ruby. (Sorry I don't recall more than I do.)

(Don't forget my first question: Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?)

Isn't this a well known account of how Ruby got in? Who was the cop who let Ruby go down the ramp?

[Roger DeLaria]

I thought I had read somewhere( I can't remember where) that Ruby may have gotten in through a back door off the rear loading dock, and down a stairwell directly into the basement, although my recollection could be wrong.

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

John and I believe that Croy was at Tenth & Patton BEFORE Tippit was killed, sitting in a car driven by Captain Westbrook which was hidden in the narrow driveway between 404 and 410 E. Tenth, then blocked on Tenth by Tippit's patrol car. Look at the aerial photo below and see how narrow that driveway was. Only Mrs. Holan, in the second floor of the house directly across the street, was able to see over Tippit's car and down the narrow driveway.

The plan to pin everything on the brown-shirted Oswald now in the Texas Theater could only proceed when it was confirmed that Tippit was dead. That's why Westbrook was there. (Tippit and the white-shirted Oswald appeared to know each other. It wouldn't do for Tippit to wake up in a hospital bed and start talking about the guy who shot him.)

After Westbtrook determined Tippit was dead, he left Croy at the scene (perhaps at first hidden in the driveway) and drove to meet white-shirted Oswald to obtain the evidence that would soon be used to frame the brown-shirted Oswald. Out of Westbrook's car, and still hidden--or no--in the driveway, Croy did not have a police radio in hand. Either way, bystanders would neeed to call police.

-----------------------

Croy's whole saga of eating with his estranged wife is laughable. Here's how John described it on my website:

Croy told the WC that he was driving his car in downtown Dallas when he heard about the shooting of the President over his police radio. Minutes after the shooting, while driving past the court house, Croy saw police officers and asked if they needed any help. According to Croy, these officers said "no." Croy then said his wife (estranged) pulled up beside him driving her car and asked if he wanted to get something to eat. They agreed to meet at Austin's Bar-B-Que in Oak Cliff. This was Sgt. Croy's testimony, but it makes no sense. Croy was unable to identify the police officers who were standing in front of the court house. Croy said nothing about the large crowds in and around the court house, less than a block from the TSBD, on the most infamous day in Dallas history. Why would police officers decline Croy's offer to help, when off-duty police were being called at home and asked to return to duty? Why would Croy and his estranged wife allegedly agree to meet for lunch, only a few minutes after the President of the United States had been shot. Croy's testimony makes no sense, but it does give him an alibi that helps to mask and keep secret his activities and involvement with the murder of officer Tippit.

Sure are a lot of coincidences in this sordid case.

Jim,

Why is it necessary for Croy to have been a part of this scenario? You say the Westbrook was there to confirm that Tippit was dead. (Presumably by asking LEE Oswald when they rendezvoused.) John believes that it was Westbrook who introduced the wallet, not Croy. I assume you believe the same.

I just don't see any reason to believe that Croy was a part of this. It seems to me that the reason John believed Croy was involved is because he thought Croy was at the scene too quickly, even when Virginia Davis first appeared outside her house. But now I've shown that that wasn't the case. Croy wasn't there that early, and that is why Virginia's sister-in-law called the police and others were using Tippit's radio to contact them.

It makes perfect sense that Croy arrived in his own car. And someone had to be the first cop to arrive, so why not Croy? But for some reason you continue to insist he was with Westbrook. Okay, fine, let's assume so for a moment. You and John believe (as do I and most everybody else) that Croy was the first cop to arrive. Problem is, according to your and John's account, Croy didn't have a car (Westbrook had taken it). So are we to believe that Croy just wandered over to the crowd on foot? From that alley? If so, then how come nobody mentions that? That the first cop to arrive did so on foot.

Actually, I personally don't expect something to have been reported for it to have actually taken place. So I say, sure! Croy could have arrived by foot with nobody thinking they should make a note of it. The reason I bring this up is because John DOES think that something is amiss just because it wasn't reported. He uses this type of logic (regarding Croy, at least) to show how something is unthinkable or whatever when it supports his case. (I give an example of his doing so below.)

Having made that point, I will ask once again... what reason is there to believe the Croy was with Westbrook? There is no evidence for it, and no need as far as I can tell.

Jim said:

Croy's whole saga of eating with his estranged wife is laughable.

It's laughable to you guys. It makes perfect sense to me.

Here's how John described it on my website:

Croy told the WC that he was driving his car in downtown Dallas when he heard about the shooting of the President over his police radio. Minutes after the shooting, while driving past the court house, Croy saw police officers and asked if they needed any help. According to Croy, these officers said "no." Croy then said his wife (estranged) pulled up beside him driving her car and asked if he wanted to get something to eat.

Croy and his wife were not estranged. They had apparently been arguing and he had been sleeping at his parents house for a few days. And FWIW I think it was Croy who asked his wife to lunch.

They agreed to meet at Austin's Bar-B-Que in Oak Cliff. This was Sgt. Croy's testimony, but it makes no sense.

In what way does Croy's testimony make no sense? (John will now explain how, and I will respond.)

Croy was unable to identify the police officers who were standing in front of the court house.

Croy explained in his WC testimony that he was a reserve officer and didn't know the names of many on the force, though he knew them by sight. This makes perfect sense to me.

Croy said nothing about the large crowds in and around the court house,....

This is an example of what I pointed out above. That because Croy (in this case) didn't say anything about the large crowds, his testimony is therefore suspect... it makes no sense. (To John and Jim.)

It does make sense to me. Not everybody reports everything they see.

....less than a block from the TSBD, on the most infamous day in Dallas history. Why would police officers decline Croy's offer to help, when off-duty police were being called at home and asked to return to duty?

Maybe because those particular police officer didn't need help.

Why would Croy and his estranged wife allegedly agree to meet for lunch, only a few minutes after the President of the United States had been shot.

Maybe because Croy was preoccupied with his martial problem, and he wanted to discuss them with his wife. That makes perfect sense to me.

But let me ask this.... Did Croy invite his wife to lunch BEFORE or AFTER he learned the president had been shot? If it was before, then this whole point is moot?

Croy's testimony makes no sense, but it does give him an alibi that helps to mask and keep secret his activities and involvement with the murder of officer Tippit.

Sure are a lot of coincidences in this sordid case.

The only coincidences I can identify are these:

• Croy was the first police officer to arrive at the Tippit murder scene.
• Croy was standing next to Ruby in the basement.
• Thirty years later Croy claimed to have recovered Oswald's wallet.

Everything else is a nit IMO. Even these coincidences don't really meet the definition of coincidence, which is "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection." They are more like "eyebrow-raising facts." And the first of the three isn't even that IMO.

[Sandy Larsen]

I thought I had read somewhere( I can't remember where) that Ruby may have gotten in through a back door off the rear loading dock, and down a stairwell directly into the basement, although my recollection could be wrong.

I believe that that is the same story I'm thinking of. I imagined Ruby walking down the ramp, but he may have gone down a stairwell after passing the cop without being stopped.

[Jim Hargrove]

Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?

Croy admitted it in both his Dec. 1 Affidavit and in his Warren Commission testimony. (There were simply too many potential witnesses in the basement to risk denying it.)

Croy's WC testimony is almost identical, right down to the references to Dear Old Dad. Amazing how he could remember this so well and virtually nothing else.

Also, Sandy, in another post you are not accurately representing what John Armstrong has written. If you read his "November 22, 1963" piece again, you might be able to answer a number of your own questions. Coming to grips with everything in that essay isn't easy... believe me, I've probably read it six times but I still need to go back to it from time to time. Why not give it another shot? (Ahhh, poor choice of words.)

November 22, 1963

[Jim Hargrove]

Is Westbrook also in the garage for "crowd control"?

I'd like to know the answer to that, too. Interesting, though, that Westbrook was Director of Personnel for the DPD. I'll bet he had considerable say on who would be where on a day-to-day basis.

[Tom Neal]

Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?

Croy admitted it in both his Dec. 1 Affidavit and in his Warren Commission testimony.

Excellent find, Jim. Anything interesting on page two of this doc?

Croy states (in his WC testimony?) that he did NOT file an 'activities report' on 11-22-1963. Was he ever required to give an affidavit regarding his actions that day? As a VERY early arrival at the JDT murder scene (if not the first officer present) and the guy that found (if we can believe him 30 years later) or at least examined LHO's found wallet, I would think that would be a requirement.

Tom

[Sandy Larsen]

Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?

Croy admitted it in both his Dec. 1 Affidavit and in his Warren Commission testimony. (There were simply too many potential witnesses in the basement to risk denying it.)

Croy's WC testimony is almost identical, right down to the references to Dear Old Dad. Amazing how he could remember this so well and virtually nothing else.

Also, Sandy, in another post you are not accurately representing what John Armstrong has written. If you read his "November 22, 1963" piece again, you might be able to answer a number of your own questions. Coming to grips with everything in that essay isn't easy... believe me, I've probably read it six times but I still need to go back to it from time to time. Why not give it another shot? (Ahhh, poor choice of words.)

November 22, 1963

Thanks Jim.

I had already found and read Croy's WC testimony regarding Ruby. He said that he thought it might be Ruby standing next to him. And he said that he had met Ruby once before. As far as talking to Ruby, he said that he asked Ruby to move back toward the rail. So it's not like he was conversing with him. At least he didn't confess to that.

You said:, "Also, Sandy, in another post you are not accurately representing what John Armstrong has written." Please let me know what I've said that is inaccurate so that I can set the record of what I've said straight.

BTW I am consulting John's November 22, 1963 article extensively. But I do have a hard time simply reading it straight through because there are no references cited, other than a few quotations and pictures of testimony and other evidence. When I read something, I'm very careful in separating evidence from interpretation of evidence. As much as I possibly can.

I will reread the document. However, when I do I will remove (in my mind) any parts I feel are unsubstantiated. I do that with everything I read. As you are well aware, as of now I have trouble with the "Croy with Westbrook at 10th and Patton" scenario. I will change my position if I feel the evidence warrants it.

[Sandy Larsen]

Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?

Croy admitted it in both his Dec. 1 Affidavit and in his Warren Commission testimony.

Excellent find, Jim. Anything interesting on page two of this doc?

Croy states (in his WC testimony?) that he did NOT file an 'activities report' on 11-22-1963. Was he ever required to give an affidavit regarding his actions that day? As a VERY early arrival at the JDT murder scene (if not the first officer present) and the guy that found (if we can believe him 30 years later) or at least examined LHO's found wallet, I would think that would be a requirement.

Tom

Tom,

It is pretty obvious from Croy's testimony that he wasn't much interested in working "long hours".... at least not that day. He was busy handing off witnesses to other officers. (Or is that something sergeants routinely do?)

Regardless, Croy had made a lunch date with his wife and his stop at the Tippit shooting was making him late. He compensated by deciding not to go home (his parents house) to change clothes.

Of course none of this means that he wasn't required to write a report. But the impression I got is that he wouldn't do so if he didn't have to. At least not until a later date.

[Sandy Larsen]

In his article John Armstrong wrote:

Why would Croy and his estranged wife allegedly agree to meet for lunch, only a few minutes after the President of the United States had been shot. Croy's testimony makes no sense, but it does give him an alibi....

Here's my answer and this time I'm going to speculate a little:

Like most people, the Croys were deeply affected by the killing of President Kennedy. Well, Mrs. Croy especially. And like most people, they wanted to be with their loved ones, to console each other and talk about what had happened. To that end, Mr. Croy invited his wife to have dinner with him. He couldn't really invite her to his place as that was his parents' house. He couldn't invite himself to their home, as they had, a few days earlier, gotten into a heated argument, and he had been asked to leave. (Or maybe he stomped out.) So he asked his wife to meet him at their favorite restaurant.

I was in third grade when President Kennedy was shot down. The first thing I wanted was go home and be with my family. I don't see why it had to be any different with Sergeant Croy and his wife.

[Jim Hargrove]

Excellent find, Jim. Anything interesting on page two of this doc?

I believe he said that he made heroic efforts to grab Ruby by the coattail and put an end to his attempt to silence Oswald and befuddle American history for more than half a century. Judge for yourself here:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340065/

Croy states (in his WC testimony?) that he did NOT file an 'activities report' on 11-22-1963. Was he ever required to give an affidavit regarding his actions that day? As a VERY early arrival at the JDT murder scene (if not the first officer present) and the guy that found (if we can believe him 30 years later) or at least examined LHO's found wallet, I would think that would be a requirement.

Remember, though, that the Tenth & Patton wallet didn't officially exist for thirty years. Hosty and Bob Barrett spilled the beans, but nobody took it seriously until that WFAA footage resurfaced. Amazing that a wallet of vast historical import can be filmed on a public city street, and simply disappear for decades. (Did it just scream "planted evidence" that a guy would shoot a cop at point blank range, walk back and shoot him again, and then leave his wallet at the scene?)

Here's where we seem to stand:

1) Croy was there moments after the shooting. (Virginia Davis, who said officers were already "there" and Croy's testimony to the WC). Also, Mrs. Holan said that after looking at Tippit laying in the street the man walked back to the police car as the car was backing up--was Croy driving the car at that time?

-or-

2) Croy was never at 10th & Patton (no witnesses mention him; no police reports mention him; Croy himself failed to notify Chief Curry that he had been at 10th & Patton.

1A--If Croy was there moments after the shooting he (and Westbrook) was most certainly part of a conspiracy to murder Tippit

-or-

2A--If Croy was never at 10th & Patton, then he was involved in a conspiracy (with Westbrook) to blame Harvey Oswald for the murder of Tippit by stating that he was the person who found the second wallet and gave the wallet to Westbrook. There is no innocent explanation for Croy stating that it was he who found the second wallet and gave that wallet to Westbrook.