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Who is this in the Back Seat beside Jackie?


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Hi Sandy

Good work analyzing this. I tried doing what you said by using the "Ctrl" key and the "+" and "-" keys to zoom in and out. It worked on the first photo I tried but hasn't worked since.

I actually brought this subject up again in the hopes someone with highly refined tools and skills could tell us exactly what we are looking at, and display blow ups for us.

Thanks Robert.

I think in z461 we might be seeing JFK's shoulders as Jackie pushes him up. Why she would do that, I have no idea. But for some reason she went from a sitting position with JFK's head in her lap, to a stretched-out-across-the-bench-seat position. If what I see *is* JFK's shoulders, then I think also that we can see her right arm and her hand on his left shoulder.

Jackie is clearly stretched out, and she couldn't do that and continue holding her husband's head in her lap. So it would make sense if she is pushing him into an upright position. But I just can't figure out why she would want to do that.

(BTW, we all know that the guy on the right, whose head is visible, is the SS guy riding shotgun up front, and not in back. Right?)

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I agree tat it would be a very bizarre thing for Jackie to push her husband back up into a sitting position. However, we can only imagine the state of shock her mind was in at this moment, and people often do bizarre things in this state, and usually with a great amount of adrenaline boosted strength.

She may have been revulsed at having JFK's shattered skull so close to her, or somehow in her mind it may have seemed she could set everything right by putting JFK back into the position he had occupied just seconds before. I doubt we will ever know her reasons, as it is unlikely that she even recalled doing this.

In the end, if we work hard enough at it (as you seem to do for us), I'm sure there is a perfectly good explanation as to how JFK's head is able to stay erect without flopping over, and there is probably no deep dark secret behind it. I do sometimes think about Cliff Varnell's flechette theory, and how this flechette was supposed to have delivered a paralyzing toxin into JFK. Would that paralysis still be evident if JFK was on the brink of death?

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FWIW, S.M. Holland, signal supervisor for the Union Terminal railroad was watching the scene captured in the Z-film from a short elevation directly over the Presidential car & he stated in interviews that JFK fell over the back seat on his stomach with his left foot hanging out of the car before the JFK parade car went into the 'tunnel' of Elm Street at the triple underpass/overpass. If correct, some of the image we are analyzing would have to include a portion of JFK's foot.

I believe it was David Lifton who first reported that JFK appeared at autopsy with his left arm extended (as if in a 'Heil Hitler' salute) that was broken out of this contorted, grotesque posture by the autopsy doctors at Bethesda.

OTOH, elevating a person's head suffering from a head wound would have been proper emergency first aid in 1963. I can remember a life guard walking me around the pool someone shoved me from behind into for quite some time as panic situation first aid, after the unexpected shove caused a small head gash & nose bleed. I was forbidden by the lifeguard from reclining in a pool chair for fear of me falling asleep and not waking up.

The only 'towels' the parade car contained that I am aware of were Presidential ornamental hand/lap towels that can be seen hanging in a multitude of pre-motorcade and motorcade photos. I'm not sure if Jackie used them or not to smother her husband's bleeding. If I recall correctly, the Presidential hand towels were still in place in the White House garage photos taken by the FBI the night of the assassination. I'm not aware of the two front seat SS agents stripping off their coats to help control the wounded passengers bleeding either.

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch
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Hi Sandy

In all of the closeup analysis of this figure, did you happen to see anything that look like large head wounds?

I looked only at frames after Jackie went out on the back of the car. In the frames after that, only JFK's face can be seen, and that's only in some of the frames. None show the back of his head as far as I can tell. And I can see no wounds.

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Here's a closeup of Z461:

attachicon.gifzapruder_z461a.jpg

Thanks, Sandy. Damn, my old eyes get sore trying to study these blurry photos.

Well, if that's not the head, shoulders and back of a man sitting in JFK's spot, I don't know what it is. However, I do like to keep an open mind, and if someone can show evidence of this being an optical illusion, I'm more than willing to look at it.

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FWIW, S.M. Holland, signal supervisor for the Union Terminal railroad was watching the scene captured in the Z-film from a short elevation directly over the Presidential car & he stated in interviews that JFK fell over the back seat on his stomach with his left foot hanging out of the car before the JFK parade car went into the 'tunnel' of Elm Street at the triple underpass/overpass. If correct, some of the image we are analyzing would have to include a portion of JFK's foot.

I believe it was David Lifton who first reported that JFK appeared at autopsy with his left arm extended (as if in a 'Heil Hitler' salute) that was broken out of this contorted, grotesque posture by the autopsy doctors at Bethesda.

OTOH, elevating a person's head suffering from a head wound would have been proper emergency first aid in 1963. I can remember a life guard walking me around the pool someone shoved me from behind into for quite some time as panic situation first aid, after the unexpected shove caused a small head gash & nose bleed. I was forbidden by the lifeguard from reclining in a pool chair for fear of me falling asleep and not waking up.

The only 'towels' the parade car contained that I am aware of were Presidential ornamental hand/lap towels that can be seen hanging in a multitude of pre-motorcade and motorcade photos. I'm not sure if Jackie used them or not to smother her husband's bleeding. If I recall correctly, the Presidential hand towels were still in place in the White House garage photos taken by the FBI the night of the assassination. I'm not aware of the two front seat SS agents stripping off their coats to help control the wounded passengers bleeding either.

Brad Milch

Hi Brad

Do you know which interview it was where Holland stated that he saw JFK's left foot sticking out of the limo as the limo passed under the Triple Underpass? The reason I ask is this would seem to contradict what Holland stated in his WC testimony:

"Mr. STERN - What did you then do?

Mr. HOLLAND - Well. immediately after the shots was fired, I run around the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone up there behind the fence.

Mr. STERN - That is the picket fence?

Mr. HOLLAND - That is the picket fence.

Mr. STERN - On the north side of Elm Street?

Mr. HOLLAND - Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was just a big-it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it, and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to the office and took me back up to the courthouse. "

I've heard of JFK's left foot protruding from the limo before. The more I think of it, it is difficult to comprehend how someone could fall to his left, with his left leg under him, and end up wit his left foot sticking out of the car.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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...reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third...


Here's where it can get dicey with witness statements, Bob. Her testimony is actually pretty good. But during a very short and traumatic time, people either leave things out, misremember, or say the incorrect thing.


Look at this image from the Z film:




She never once mentioned, "And, oh by the way, John, sort of laid sideways and took a peek back into the back seat to see what all the commotion was about." But there he is looking back there.


And it sure doesn't look like she's "pulling him down" and "holding" him in the above photo.


As a matter of fact, her statement, the one you mention, actually gives credence to the upright head you're wondering about being Connally's head when she said, "it would have been impossible to get us really both down."


So there you go. And sometimes, you have to let common sense prevail here, reality vs. fantasy. I mean why in the world would Jackie be pushing and propping up her husband with his head busted open, bleeding and oozing brain matter? It flies against all reason for her to be doing that.


Look at the photo above again, Bob. See Connally's head? Now correlate that head a few seconds more down toward the tunnel and that's the head you're seeing. Because of the compressed angle, it looks like he's right next to Jackie. But he's not, Bob. It's as simple as that.

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...reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more. The third...
Here's where it can get dicey with witness statements, Bob. Her testimony is actually pretty good. But during a very short and traumatic time, people either leave things out, misremember, or say the incorrect thing.
Look at this image from the Z film:
She never once mentioned, "And, oh by the way, John, sort of laid sideways and took a peek back into the back seat to see what all the commotion was about." But there he is looking back there.
And it sure doesn't look like she's "pulling him down" and "holding" him in the above photo.
As a matter of fact, her statement, the one you mention, actually gives credence to the upright head you're wondering about being Connally's head when she said, "it would have been impossible to get us really both down."
So there you go. And sometimes, you have to let common sense prevail here, reality vs. fantasy. I mean why in the world would Jackie be pushing and propping up her husband with his head busted open, bleeding and oozing brain matter? It flies against all reason for her to be doing that.
Look at the photo above again, Bob. See Connally's head? Now correlate that head a few seconds more down toward the tunnel and that's the head you're seeing. Because of the compressed angle, it looks like he's right next to Jackie. But he's not, Bob. It's as simple as that.

Seriously, Michael? The figure we are looking at has a set of shoulders and a back as well as a head.

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@'Hi Brad

Do you know which interview it was where Holland stated that he saw JFK's left foot sticking out of the limo as the limo passed under the Triple Underpass? The reason I ask is this would seem to contradict what Holland stated in his WC testimony:'

Howdy, Bob.

I recall Holland being in Mark Lane's film interviews from Rush To Judgement (circa 1966-1967), in Josiah Thompson's 1967 blockbuster book, 'Six Seconds In Dallas' & CBS News interviewing him for their 4-part Warren Report support TV special that ran consecutive nights back in 1967. It will be in one of those 3 interviews. Before I go dig that media out of the jungle of my personal JFK collection, I'm leaning towards the Mark Lane filmed interview, but I could be wrong. I'll get back to you with a definitive answer. Holland was pretty disgusted with the WC's handling of his testimony. Holland sent corrections to it to the WC (marked in red) that the WC never corrected his published testimony with (according to what he told Thompson or Lane).

BTW, did you see that monster of a weapon the Baton Rouge police sniper used against his victims last week? I had no idea such a Star Wars looking weapon even existed, much less was in the hands of non-military or non-police. A scary looking weapon like that in the hands of a lunatic kinda takes the fun out of going cruising these days, doesn't it?

Best always to you, Robert

BM

Edited by Brad Milch
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z461 closeup, without and with interpretation for comparison: (Click photos to see interpretation clearly.)

It's not too hard to see that I have Jackie correct here (or close too it) once you realize that:

  • There is a pinkish area just to the right and below her hat that is NOT a part of her hat.
  • The sun is reflecting off the back of her hair, making it look white. The sun is also reflecting off the back of her hat and dress, making them look lighter in those areas.
  • Once we know the above, we can make out her pink hat and dress, and the dark area between must be her hair and dark collar. I believe we can even make out her right upper arm. The nearby white might be her glove. Or a reflection of sunshine off JFK's left shoulder.

It's not hard at all to realize that Jackie must have pushed her husband up. Because there is no way he could still be down lying on the chair given the position Jackie is in. She either pushed him up, or pushed him off the chair. Most likely up, and that must be him that we see barely above the back cushion of the chair.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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IMHO, Jackie knew she had to get back into the car, especially that she had to give Clint Hill some room. She

was in a daze and Hill got her out of that by pushing -- or what one person saw in the original film -- slapping

her. She propped President Kennedy up to sit next to him and put his head in her lap (which we don't see as the

film ended). He was in a back brace.

Kathy C

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IMHO, Jackie knew she had to get back into the car, especially that she had to give Clint Hill some room. She

was in a daze and Hill got her out of that by pushing -- or what one person saw in the original film -- slapping

her. She propped President Kennedy up to sit next to him and put his head in her lap (which we don't see as the

film ended). He was in a back brace.

Kathy C

Kathleen,

If you read my post #14, you will see that Jackie was back in the car, sitting in her original position, with her husband's head in her lap by Z frame 421. Then we clearly see that Jackie is up again in frame 461, seemingly pushing her husband upright.

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