Did the Dallas Radical Right kill JFK?

[Paul Brancato]

11 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your kind response.   I'm not sure if Paul Trejo made the point, but what I was referring to is that Walker knows what Oswald did from the Spring of 63 through the Mexico City trip before this information is testified to the FBI or printed in the papers.   He's talking about Oswald's activities in a way that only someone involved with the conspiracy can know; i.e. he mentions the day Oswald receives his passport in New Orleans, he mentions the intention behind the Mexico City trip, and most spectacular of all the day after the assassination Walker is telling friendly reporters that it was Oswald that shot him (Walker) back in April.   The first time Oswald was connected to the April shooting was after the discovery of the letter in Ruth Paine's House (* in early December* ) whereby Oswald admits to the attack and Marina corroborates the note.  But Walker knew this on 23 November - how is that possible aside from conspiratorial involvement?

 

Jason

What was the intention of the MC trip that Walker refers to?

[Paul Trejo]

On 9/8/2017 at 2:40 PM, Jason Ward said:

Hi Ty,

Thank you for the polite conversation...

...There is no proof whatsoever that...any CIA employee was involved in the Kennedy assassination.

...All there is is a bunch of made up hypotheses and a bunch of unknowns that are filled in with imaginative examples of creative storytelling...

But if you could point out some evidence, I'd certainly like to discuss it!... because as you say, we should investigate the CIA as far as the evidence takes us. I work on projects for the Mary Farrell Foundation including the recently released document dumps and I can see that the CIA was as aloof of Oswald in the conspiracy to kill Kennedy as the FBI or the Secret Service or anyone else in official Washington...

I really appreciate the polite interaction and I look forward to discussing this further.

Jason

Jason,

I believe we must take seriously two confessions from CIA employees regarding the JFK assassination.  I refer to E. Howard Hunt's taped deathbed confession to his son, which is now famous.  He also names David Morales (IIRC).

I also refer to the quasi-confession of David Morales to his friends, Ruben Carbajal and Bob Walton, when they were drinking heavily, and the topic turned to JFK, and Morales said, "Well, we took care of that SOB, didn't we?"  Carbajal and Walton were stunned, and regarded this as a personal confession by Morales.

In my reading, these two CIA employees were running too closely with the Radical Right which was heavily supporting Cuban Raid programs through mercenary groups like Interpen, and people like Frank Sturgis, Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall.  The latter three were not CIA officers, but they were often receivers of cash from CIA sources for their Anti-Castro activities.  

In my reading, David Morales, through Frank Sturgis, seduced Howard Hunt to subscribe to a Radical Right conspiracy already in progress.  Hunt said he "was on the sidelines" of the conspiracy.  Mark Lane took Howard Hunt to court by using Marita Lorenz as a witness, and convinced the court that Hunt was a cash provider to a group including Frank Sturgis, Garry Patrick Hemming, Lee Harvey Oswald, a few others and herself. (cf. Plausible Denial, 1991).

In my reading, the CIA as an organization was not involved -- and I think this was demonstrated scientifically by Bill Simpich with his free eBook at the Mary Ferrell site, namely, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014).  Simpich discovered -- brilliantly I think -- that the CIA started a top-secret Mole Hunt to find out who had used the Mexico City Cuban Consulate telephone on or around the final weekend of September, 1963 to impersonate Lee Harvey Oswald.

Two CIA officers are therefore implicated -- and two confessed.  So, we do have two.  But only two, in my reading.  And they were ROGUES -- involved with the Radical Right strictly OUTSIDE of the official CIA.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited September 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

What was the intention of the MC trip that Walker refers to?

Hi Paul,

IIRC, Walker is advertising that Oswald intended to escape to Moscow and receive payment / amnesty for a job well done; the escape was to be facilitated thru Mexico, and the trip was to lay the groundwork for a quick escape after the assassination.  According to Walker.

Jason

 

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

I believe we must take seriously two confessions from CIA employees regarding the JFK assassination.  I refer to E. Howard Hunt's taped deathbed confession to his son, which is now famous.  He also names David Morales (IIRC).

I also refer to the quasi-confession of David Morales to his friends, Ruben Carbajal and Bob Walton, when they were drinking heavily, and the topic turned to JFK, and Morales said, "Well, we took care of that SOB, didn't we?"  Carbajal and Walton were stunned, and regarded this as a personal confession by Morales.

In my reading, these two CIA employees were running too closely with the Radical Right which was heavily supporting Cuban Raid programs through mercenary groups like Interpen, and people like Frank Sturgis, Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall.  The latter three were not CIA officers, but they were often receivers of cash from CIA sources for their Anti-Castro activities.  

In my reading, David Morales, through Frank Sturgis, seduced Howard Hunt to subscribe to a Radical Right conspiracy already in progress.  Hunt said he "was on the sidelines" of the conspiracy.  Mark Lane took Howard Hunt to court by using Marita Lorenz as a witness, and convinced the court that Hunt was a cash provider to a group including Frank Sturgis, Garry Patrick Hemming, Lee Harvey Oswald, a few others and herself. (cf. Plausible Denial, 1991).

In my reading, the CIA as an organization was not involved -- and I think this was demonstrated scientifically by Bill Simpich with his free eBook at the Mary Ferrell site, namely, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014).  Simpich discovered -- brilliantly I think -- that the CIA started a top-secret Mole Hunt to find out who had used the Mexico City Cuban Consulate telephone on or around the final weekend of September, 1963 to impersonate Lee Harvey Oswald.

Two CIA officers are therefore implicated -- and two confessed.  So, we do have two.  But only two, in my reading.  And they were ROGUES -- involved with the Radical Right strictly OUTSIDE of the official CIA.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I hear your point and don't have a firm opinion either way as to Hunt and Morales.  Lots and lots of people later took "credit" for killing Kennedy, especially in the Cuban and Mafia communities.   There are bars in Little Havana (Miami) where the old-timers still gather where you can hear them say "we got Kennedy".   I tend to think that both Hunt and Morales were on the fringes of the assassination at most, but again I have no firm feeling.

However, the work I'm doing for MFF is in part related to newly revealed CIA cryptonyms and I hope I will contribute to further work by Bill Simpich; funny you should mention him as Rex Bradford just mentioned Simpich the other day to me as someone who hopefully is very interested in the rather tedious work I'm doing.   So, I am cautiously optimistic that through these 2017 document dumps we will fit more and more of the puzzle together.  

The mole hunt in MC is quite interesting - and here's my personal hunch after a lot of reading - the description of Oswald as 165 pounds is key here; the CIA is watching where this erroneous piece of information turns up.  It's a big part of the cable traffic at Mexico City.  Post-assassination the first place it turns up is in the radio description from Howard B's amazing eyesight of the 6th floor shooter - and IIRC, in the Tippit shooting suspect's description. The 165# description broadcast to DPD forms part of the official narrative of how they tracked down LHO.  Hmmmm....How did the DPD get precisely the same slightly wrong description of LHO, which the CIA was floating around in its mole hunt?    Anyway, the 165# thing is just my personal pet-idea-theory.

I continue to say that I see no evidence that the CIA was involved in the assassination, with the minor allowance that perhaps Hunt and Morales heard something.  For one thing, the newly released cable traffic reveals the CIA is scrounging their files and solicting contacts worldwide to discover whatever they can about Oswald, which is very little...yet I suppose the CIA-CT says they are doing this to establish their innocence in documents released 50+ years later? 

In reading the CIA traffic in 63 Morales is concerned with only one thing - promoting his ability to overthrow Castro through dramatic cloak-and-dagger efforts, OR, by recruiting and managing more Cubans to topple Castro.  Unsurprisingly enough, the Cubans he finds are quite willing to claim intense anti-communist feeling in exchange for big bucks (both inside and outside of Cuba).  However, getting them to actually show up and train or do something useful is an exercise in futility, most Cubans take the money and do nothing.   Morales is part of this fiasco and in a weird way I can sense him in later years re-framing his work in this area as more historically interesting because it relates to JFK -  the embarassing truth is that his and the CIA's work with the Cuban emigre' community and with those still living in Cuba is an overbloated circus of grandiose talk and almost no action.   Why not refocus history to highlight one's relevance?

St. John Hunt is a flimflam man and so I look upon his dad's confession as mainly a selling point for St John's business of capitalizing on his dad's fame.  In any event, this is not a strong feeling for me and if Hunt and Morales were involved they were almost certainly on their own and with no CIA support, IMO.  Hunt and Morales are Cuba-oriented in 63, not JFK-oriented, in my view - and almost no Cubans or Cuban-supporters are so angry at JFK as commonly portrayed.  JFK was doing quite a bit to end Castro.

 

Jason

Edited September 10, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Paul Trejo]

Jason,

I  agree with you that the question of further CIA involvement must remain open -- and that further information and FOIA releases on the topic must be analyzed carefully.

I have no firm conclusion yet -- only a theory; a CT.

However, we cannot discount the proximity of Morales and Hunt to the Radical Right wing of racists and those who accused Washington DC of outright Communism, and so sought the overthrow of the US Government.  Both CIA officers connect to Frank Sturgis.

Also, Larry Hancock connects David Morales to Johnny Martino.  Also, Hancock connects Johnny Martino to the John Birch Society -- the Communist Plot wackos of the 1960's. 

As for the Howard Hunt deathbed confession, I believe it is genuine -- it is not a written document (like Roscoe White's confession) -- but it is tape-recorded, and that is crucial, IMHO.  I admit that we must take Howard Hunt himself with a grain of salt, since he speaks cryptically at times -- but at other times he is explicit.  (Perhaps Hunt deserves his own thread, so that we don't get side-tracked from the theme of the Radical Right.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited September 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

4 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

IIRC, Walker is advertising that Oswald intended to escape to Moscow and receive payment / amnesty for a job well done; the escape was to be facilitated thru Mexico, and the trip was to lay the groundwork for a quick escape after the assassination.  According to Walker.

Jason

 

But of course that was complete BS. I'm sure you don't believe that's why Oswald went to MC, if he did at all?

there were others that had info on Oswald right after the assassination. They were connected with Cubans. There are no existing notes, or writings of any kind so far discovered, that show that Walker even knew who Oswald was before Nov 22, 1963. 

While the CIA was busy scouring for info in him, they had it all along in carefully segregated files - Angleton.  Of course you know that. Pardon my ignorance, what is the MMF?

Edited September 10, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[Jason Ward]

11 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

But of course that was complete BS. I'm sure you don't believe that's why Oswald went to MC, if he did at all?

there were others that had info on Oswald right after the assassination. They were connected with Cubans. There are no existing notes, or writings of any kind so far discovered, that show that Walker even knew who Oswald was before Nov 22, 1963. 

While the CIA was busy scouring for info in him, they had it all along in carefully segregated files - Angleton.  Of course you know that. Pardon my ignorance, what is the MMF?

Hi Paul,

It isn't whether or not Oswald was in Mexico City that is in dispute here.  It is the source of Walker's knowledge and the reason he would advance this narrative before it was reported and made known to investigative agencies or the public press.

There are in fact witness statements and other records indicating Walker knew of Oswald previous to 22November.   But let me ask you this:  If you knew that Walker was friends with both Carlos Bringuier and Guy Banister would you strongly doubt that Walker knew of Oswald?

thanks,

Jason

 

MFF=Mary Ferrell Foundation

[Paul Brancato]

Jason - we don't know if Walker was or wasn't friends with Bringuier or Banister. And witness statements and other evidence is not first hand, and is again all after the fact. Didn't Hal Hendrix also know too much too quick? What does it prove? That there was a network in place to convict Oswald in the public eye that went into action immediately. Doesn't mean those people did the deed does it?

again I will return to the main objection I have with Trejo's theory, and maybe with yours. If you cannot include radical right Generals or CIA bigwigs in your theory the question is - why? Were they less radically right wing? 

[Paul Brancato]

What is MMF?

[Jason Ward]

1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

Jason - we don't know if Walker was or wasn't friends with Bringuier or Banister. And witness statements and other evidence is not first hand, and is again all after the fact. Didn't Hal Hendrix also know too much too quick? What does it prove? That there was a network in place to convict Oswald in the public eye that went into action immediately. Doesn't mean those people did the deed does it?

again I will return to the main objection I have with Trejo's theory, and maybe with yours. If you cannot include radical right Generals or CIA bigwigs in your theory the question is - why? Were they less radically right wing? 

Hi Paul,

Bringuier attended Walker's pep rallies and they spoke several times that we know of - that's documented.

I have attached a few documents to consider.

As far as your question, "If you cannot include radical right Generals or CIA bigwigs in your theory the question is - why?"   ... the answer is because I see no evidence of CIA bigwigs or active generals involvement in the assassination, although they were involved in the cover up.  Also, the CIA lacks motive.  I am certainly looking to consider any evidence you want to offer. MFF=Mary Ferrell Foundation

Jason

 

=============

{top item is from Joan Mellin's book A Farewell to Justice; the rest are from HSCA or FBI files at the Mary Ferrell Foundation site}

1. Walker and Garrison know each other:

a

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2. Why is Souetre meeting with Carlos Bringuier followed by General Walker?

=============================

 

3. Louis Davis is friends with Banister, Shaw, and Walker...interesting group, don't you agree?

 

=================================

 

4. General Walker supports Carlos Bringuier's organization financially (a list of donors is a few pages later in this FBI report - Walker is listed):

===================================

5. How does Walker know what Oswald was doing in New Orleans during the Summer of 1963?

==============================

6. Walker cannot explain to the WC how he has advanced nonpublic knowledge of Oswald:

[Jason Ward]

I just now came across this top document in the newly released document dump.

Walker as a White Citizens Council Member....along with.....Banister.  Walker is in New Orleans on 22 November and off to Shreveport to whip up some segregationist spirit the next day...

 

 

From Gus Russo's Live By The Sword (p. 140)

[Paul Brancato]

That's all interesting, and thanks for taking the time to post the links. But what I find weird about all this is your statement that there is no evidence of possible military or CIA involvement, and by that I mean individuals, not organizations. You provided good evidence for contact with Oswald. There are mountains of evidence showing such contacts between Oswald and others that were not part of this ultra right circle. Angleton was responsible for separating Oswald's files so that no one else could find the real stuff. Oswald wasn't sent to Russia as part of some right wing conspiracy, he was sent as part of a false defector program run out of CIA and possibly ONI.You need to use the same yardstick when you call something evidence of killing the president. 

Whats interesting about your material is the mention of Soutre and OAS. Now, you must be aware that OAS had links to CIA, or at least certain members therein. Did you read Talbot's book? 

Do you think Oswald killed JFK? Pr that he was part of a right wing assassination team?

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

Walker maybe was or maybe wasn't the source of the info which appeared in the German newspaper on 29 Nov 1963. It may have been someone wanting to solidify Oswald as a man with a propensity to use a rifle to kill.

As I recall, Walker was upset that law enforcement played games with the bullet taken from the wall in Walker's house. He apparently wasn't sure who fired the bullet at him.

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

That's all interesting, and thanks for taking the time to post the links. But what I find weird about all this is your statement that there is no evidence of possible military or CIA involvement, and by that I mean individuals, not organizations. You provided good evidence for contact with Oswald. There are mountains of evidence showing such contacts between Oswald and others that were not part of this ultra right circle. Angleton was responsible for separating Oswald's files so that no one else could find the real stuff. Oswald wasn't sent to Russia as part of some right wing conspiracy, he was sent as part of a false defector program run out of CIA and possibly ONI.You need to use the same yardstick when you call something evidence of killing the president. 

Whats interesting about your material is the mention of Soutre and OAS. Now, you must be aware that OAS had links to CIA, or at least certain members therein. Did you read Talbot's book? 

Do you think Oswald killed JFK? Pr that he was part of a right wing assassination team?

Hi Paul,

1. First please understand that I'm not trying to sell you or anyone else on a Walker-did-it CT.  I am, however, very curious about this angle and am sharing a lot of what I can find so that others can shoot it down, agree, or comment.  I am playing devil's advocate - I am not 100% convinced of Walker's role.

2. Of course I know about Souetre!  That's why I posted that source - because it is fascinating, but also to show I'm interested in exploring everything, not convincing anyone of my personal opinion.   Assuming the source I quote above is correct, the Walker-Bringuier-Souetre-OAS connection is really intriguing!   My feeling is that Souetre is something of a gun-for-hire at this point, which is basically what I've read elsewhere.  Naturally, he interviews with General Walker for a job Walker wants done....

3. I do not require you to post the actual sources or page numbers, but perhaps you can detail what you mean by saying 'there are mountains of evidence showing such contacts between Oswald and others that were not part of this ultra right circle' ?   Like who?  As I say, just your own recollection is good.

4. What's your evidence that Oswald was sent to Russia as a false defector program run by the CIA or possibly the ONI?  I see nothing to support this, so again, just your own recollection of what you've seen is fine.

5. Yes, I continue to see no evidence of CIA involvement.   Evidence is a document or witness testimony.   Yes, as we said above, Howard Hunt and Morales may have had some assassination insight, but I see no role for them as acting on behalf of the CIA.  Again, if you want to throw out any evidence, great, please do.

6. No Oswald did not kill JFK, of that I am 99.99% sure.   I'm probably 95% sure that Oswald was up to something on 22 November --- I doubt he thought JFK's death was in the cards, but he may have been expecting some JFK-related event, shall we say.   It doesn't matter much who pulled the trigger - what matters is who bought the bullets.

7. How does the CIA benefit by killing Kennedy?   You believe it is worth risking prison, the electric chair, and the destruction of the CIA for whatever you're going to say the CIA's intended benefit is?   That's a huge huge risk with no payoff as far as I can see.

 

Thanks again for the polite conversation!

Jason

 

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jason

Walker maybe was or maybe wasn't the source of the info which appeared in the German newspaper on 29 Nov 1963. It may have been someone wanting to solidify Oswald as a man with a propensity to use a rifle to kill.

As I recall, Walker was upset that law enforcement played games with the bullet taken from the wall in Walker's house. He apparently wasn't sure who fired the bullet at him.

Hi George,

The phone call from Walker to Germany is part of the documented evidence.   The words of course were not recorded, but testified to by the German side.  That's why the Warren Commission pursues this - it is certain the source is Walker.  The German newspaper article is only one example of many.  There are several examples where Walker leaks his desired narrative that Oswald shot at him before this was public dogma from the letter found at the Paine's from LHO.

...and yes of course it was leaked by "someone wanting to solidify Oswald as a man with a propensity to use a rifle to kill",  namely the conspirators who wanted desperately to portray Oswald as a Castro-KGB order-taker.

Walker is 100% sure who fired the bullet at him either before 10April63 because it was part of the conspiracy to show Oswald's nutty-commie-persona -OR- within a few weeks after the event when de Mohrenschildt and Oswald both leave town in a hurry.  Recall the John T Martin film, whereby Martin meets with Walker in Dallas shortly after the shooting and next records Oswald on Canal Street with Walker's pal Carlos Bringuier.

http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/0?t:state:flow=3460c256-b408-444e-9302-3cdf58c3e363

Jason

Edited September 11, 2017 by Jason Ward