Marita Lorenz Obituary

[Steve Thomas]

On 9/7/2019 at 11:31 AM, David Andrews said:

The pages you linked to at the Harvey and Lee website provide enough anecdotal evidence that an "Oswald" was operating in the US Gulf region while another was in Russia.

David,

 

Maybe this belongs in another thread, but it's kind of weird. I got to thinking about Hoover's memo about the possibility of an imposter in Russia.

You can see a copy of his memo here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Comrade/Comrade_boy.htm

Hoover's memo to the Office of Security at the Department of State is dated June 3, 1960 and reads in part, "His last known residence as indicated in your dispatch was the Letropole (sic) Hotel, Moscow, where he was residing in a nontourist status."

That's weird, because Oswald had moved to Minsk as far back as January, 1960.

What dispatch is Hoover referring to? How old was it? Who was running six months behind? The State Department or Hoover?

 

Steve Thomas

Edited September 25, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[David Andrews]

Steve,

There's enough Oswald sightings in the US during his defection to not be discounted.  The question is, why, when they're detected as early as June 1960, months before the election?

There were enough young dead Marines whose identity could be stolen.  Why run a double Oswald in the US, when conceivably Russian intelligence ops hidden in the US could discover these activities in checking the defector's background?  Why even run a double Oz for Hoover to discover?  And it's not like defector Oz benefited from being still active in the US.

I don't doubt it, I just wonder why it was out in the open before there was a mission genuinely requiring a double.  What were they going to use these guys for before a JFK hit was decided?  (Remembering, of course, that there were several JFK hits mooted.)

Edited September 25, 2019 by David Andrews

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Steve,

There were enough young dead Marines whose identity could be stolen.  Why run a double Oswald in the US, when conceivably Russian intelligence ops hidden in the US could discover these activities in checking the defector's background?  Why even run a double Oz for Hoover to discover?

I just wonder why it was out in the open before there was a mission genuinely requiring a double.  What were they going to use these guys for before a JFK hit was decided? 

David,

 

Though there was supposed to be regular liaison and close cooperation between agencies, sometimes (a lot of times I suspect), that military intelligence, the FBI, the CIA, and the State Department did not play well with others. I can't remember which memo it is exactly right now, but there's a memo with a handwritten note from Hoover at the bottom, grudgingly allowing the FBI to cooperate with the CIA in something and Hoover saying, "OK, but don't forget their double dealing in that Mexico City thing." (or something along those lines).

( I think Hoover mentioned something else in that note - something about French intelligence maybe?)

And, I know from reading various military intelligence files from the Bay of Pigs era, that MI considered the CIA to be a bunch of cowboys.

I think it's quite possible that different agencies were using different Oswald personas for different reasons, and not telling each other.

 

Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 9/26/2019 at 2:32 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

Though there was supposed to be regular liaison and close cooperation between agencies, sometimes (a lot of times I suspect), that military intelligence, the FBI, the CIA, and the State Department did not play well with others. I can't remember which memo it is exactly right now, but there's a memo with a handwritten note from Hoover at the bottom, grudgingly allowing the FBI to cooperate with the CIA in something and Hoover saying, "OK, but don't forget their double dealing in that Mexico City thing." (or something along those lines).

( I think Hoover mentioned something else in that note - something about French intelligence maybe?)

And, I know from reading various military intelligence files from the Bay of Pigs era, that MI considered the CIA to be a bunch of cowboys.

I think it's quite possible that different agencies were using different Oswald personas for different reasons, and not telling each other.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Peter Dale Scott has long argued that "Oswald's" Russian defection was a part of CIA Counter-Intelligence Chief James Angleton's long-running operation to ferret out a suspected mole in the CIA. Scott's impressive work has been supported by others for decades. 

Was that (the molehunt) the sole purpose of "Oswald's" defection?

Probably not.

It was probably piggy-backed onto any number of objectives from any number of American intelligence agencies. The main thing though is that the defection itself was a "false" defection, and if Scott is right, then whether "Oswald" actually gulled the Russians into buying him as a real defector was ultimately not that important to Angleton.  Angleton was hunting moles in America, not trying to elicit clandestine information about the USSR from teenage "defectors." (That's my conclusion, not Peter Dale Scott's.) I believe that is why "Oswald" was sent on such a hair-brained scheme - were the CIA/ONI/M-2 really so stupid as to believe that the Soviets would fall for "Oswald" as a true defector?

From the available evidence, it would seem that the Soviets saw right through "Oswald" in a matter of days. And treated him as anything but a true defector for years after.

As to Marita Lorenz and her Florida LHO, well, somebody was down there using the name LHO at some point. Hell, even the LHO who walked into Carlos Bringuier's store in New Orleans seemingly claimed to have been in Florida!

Here is Vance Blalock's testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - What did you think of Oswald?
Mr. BLALOCK - He seemed like a very intelligent man to me, well spoken, looked well dressed, well groomed.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think anything else about him, or is that about it?
Mr. BLALOCK - That is the impression that I got right at the moment.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he say anything about Florida?
Mr. BLALOCK - Just mentioned the Cuban anti-Castro organization there.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did he say about that?
Mr. BLALOCK - I don't remember exactly, but I think he said he had been there and he had looked into it. I couldn't say for sure on that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he mention the name of the organization?
Mr. BLALOCK - No, sir. No, I don't recall any name.

Later:

Mr. LIEBELER - So the best you can recall, Oswald didn't say that he had recently visited someone in the Cosa Nostra?
Mr. BLALOCK - No, sir. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you do recall sort of vaguely that Oswald did say that he had been in Florida and he had visited an Anti-Castro Cuban organization there?
Mr. BLALOCK - Yes, sir; I do.

Blalock's testimony was NOT contradicted by his friend, Philip Geraci:

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember whether Oswald said anything about having been in Florida?
Mr. GERACI - In Florida?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mr. GERACI - I am not too sure about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't remember one way or the other whether----
Mr. GERACI - The only thing I remember about Florida is when he asked was headquarters down there. He could have, but I don't know.

 

But better than that, the FBI itself had allegations from a witness, John K. Kaylock, that LHO was in Punta Gorda Florida on October, 2, 1963, apparently predicting the assassination. Was Kaylock a crackpot? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. The FBI did NOT want to know.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96509#relPageId=6&tab=page

What I do know is that the CIA really, really wanted to know what the author Nathaniel Weyl had been told about LHO in Florida. Here is a declassified document CIA analyst Helene Finan from 1964:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10121-10377.pdf

So, was at least one LHO in Florida when another LHO was somewhere else?

A helluva lot of intelligence agents sure thought so as far back as 1964 . . .