W. Niederhut Posted May 29 Author Share Posted May 29 20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Matt, NSAM 263 is not what I or any other commentator chose to "hang their hat on" for a withdrawal thesis. One of the most important, if not the most important, document released by the ARRB was the Sec Def conference meeting of May 1963. In that conference, McNamara had asked for withdrawal schedules. They were handed in to him. He looked at them and then announced, this is too slow. We have the notes to that meeting. Wheeler was there. He wrote that any contra argument to withdrawal would meet with a negative response. We then have the tapes of the October meetings where Kennedy and McNamara are talking about withdrawing and Mac Bundy does not know what they are talking about. McNamara replies that they have to find a way to get out of Vietnam. Many years later, Bundy heard this tape and told his biographer Gordon Goldstein that Kennedy had instructed McNamara to run the withdrawal program. And he deliberately went around him since he thought he was too hawkish. He told Goldstein that was the right decision and he had nothing but admiration for what Kennedy had done. We then have the evidence of the handing in of the Taylor/McNamara report and how Sullivan had tried to pull the withdrawal plan out of it. Kennedy called them into a conference room and made them put it back in. He then rode herd over the dissenters and announced, we now have a plan. He then told McNamara to announce it to the press. But while he was walking out to do so, JFK opened a window and told him, "And tell them that means the helicopter pilots also!" In Stone's film, John Newman talked about the McNamara debriefs. How the Secretary said that he and Kennedy had agreed that America should only have a training and equipment program for Saigon. They could not fight the war for them. Once that training program was complete, America could get out. And it did not matter if Saigon was winning or losing, we were getting out of Vietnam. Now I could go even further in this, because I have not even included Galbraith and his strong influence over JFK on this issue. Or the advice of DeGaulle and MacArthur. Or the 19 witnesses who said that Kennedy told them he was getting out of Vietnam. Are they all lying? I have done a lot of work on this angle in the last several years. One reason being that I did not buy into at first. I can now see I was wrong. Kennedy was getting out of Vietnam, and that decision was knowingly halted by Johnson within days, and it was then reversed by NSAM 288 in March of 1964. These are all facts. And only the Noam Chomskys of the world would beg to differ. This is a terrific post about the history of JFK's 1963 Vietnam withdrawal policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 (edited) 20 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: This is a terrific post about the history of JFK's 1963 Vietnam withdrawal policy. Wait, is this in there? p. 9, August 24, 1963: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10214-10036.pdf "Mr. Harriman called Mr. Helms ... and outlined to him the substance of what eventually turned out to be DepTel 243 to Saigon. To Helms query, Harriman confirmed that the thrust of the telegram contained an implicit pull out of American forces and support if the Nhus' were not ousted. Harriman said that the message had been cleared "with Hyannisport," with the Secretary of State, and with Mr. Gilpatric." Huh. So that reads like the "withdrawal policy" was actually a lever which the U.S. used to get rid of Diem and the Nhus. Interesting. Madam Nhu lived just around the corner from me in the 80s, in Washington, before she was murdered by her son. If only I had gotten her side of the story. ('Course she wasn't welcome at Germain's Vietnamese restaurant in Georgetown.) Edited May 30 by Matt Cloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said: I think I will now put Matt on ignore. How does one do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Maybe that's why Roger Hilsman called me one day out of the blue in 2000 or so, panicked about whether Moynihan was going to go through with the Secrecy declassification legislation. Symington too, the younger. In the event it was gutted, by the aforementioned Mark A. Bradley, as part of the last minute wheeling and dealing of the Intelligence Authorization Act of that year. Arthur Schlesinger expressed his disapproval. "Mr. Bradley also served as a CIA intelligence officer and as Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan's legislative assistant for foreign affairs and intelligence matters and as his last legislative director. He co-drafted the legislation that established the Public Interest Declassification Board." https://www.archives.gov/about/organization/senior-staff/director-isoo Query: Does former Trump attorney Evan Corcoran fit in? Note the "former." https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/mss/mfdip/2004/2004cor01/2004cor01.pdf Donald Heath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 (edited) 19 hours ago, Matt Cloud said: If you don't understand that progress comes through conflict -- by creating a clash -- well, you don't understand the politics of progressivism. Sorry. Read some Samuel Huntington. Understand Trotskyism and Hegel and neo-conservatism. These are the defining political philosophies of the day. Whether you like it or not. And as to the specifics of what any given underling at CIA or State or anywhere may have believed or intended, you might consider that upper-management has different agenda in mind. Of course however, management would need some rabid anti-communists on staff to begin that side of the conflict. Thanks again, Jim. Those wishing to explore the progressive -- however that may be defined -- connections to the, yes, even early CIA, may wish to read Covert Network Progressives, the International Rescue Committee, and the CIA By Eric Thomas Chester · 1995 A fascinating dive into Leo Cherne -- the man whose sculptural busts have adorned the oval office no matter the occupant for decades -- as well as his International Rescue Committee, the IRC. (It happens that Cherne picked up a "young tourist" named Pat Moynihan in Berlin in 1952 and brought him to work at the IRC, where he would be for a couple years before joining Harriman's staff as his executive aide. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Covert_Network/pWTyBJdfwOsC?hl=en&kptab=overview Edited May 30 by Matt Cloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted May 29 Author Share Posted May 29 3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: I am beginning to have my doubts about Matt. First there is this: If you're stuck thinking that the CIA is an instrument of imperialism you do not understand what it has been doing since its inception. It is and always has been a progressive organization. How in Hades was what David Phillips and the CIA did in Chile in 1973 progressive? How on earth was what the CIA did in Jakarta in 1965 progressive? How the heck was what the CIA did in Congo to get rid of Lumumba, progressive? How was propping up a monomaniacal dictator who deprived citizens of free speech, the right to petition, the right to organize, religious rights for the majority, and ultimately torture and death for dissidents in Saigon, how was that progressive? In all these cases, the CIA was on the side of fascism. For instance, in Congo, Lumumba came to power in a free election with a written constitution. Lumumba could have been a great example for Africa. Kennedy backed Lumumba, so did Hammarskjold. All three men were killed, with a prime suspect in each case being the CIA. This is progressive? Matt has a weird idea of progressivism. And who the heck is Deep Throat anyway? And why would his diary be at NARA? Are you talking about Felt? Bennett? Inman? Someone else? If its someone else, who is it and why? Indeed. Calling the Cold War era CIA "progressive" is like calling Dick Cheney an environmentalist. How many right wing dictatorships did the CIA establish and support in the Cold War era, in order to protect corporate capitalist profiteering from indigenous populism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 6 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said: Indeed. Calling the Cold War era CIA "progressive" is like calling Dick Cheney an environmentalist. How many right wing dictatorships did the CIA establish and support in the Cold War era, in order to protect corporate capitalist profiteering from indigenous populism? Guess what? Right-wing suppression leads to left-wing revolt. This is a long-game and there are many nuances in Cold War strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 7 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said: Guess what? Right-wing suppression leads to left-wing revolt. This is a long-game and there are many nuances in Cold War strategy. From Deep Throat's Diary, 1974: "It was not he [Kissinger] who started the Chilean involvement. It was Kennedy. He had cut the amount from $8 million a year to $400,000. Probably that cut elected Allende." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted May 29 Author Share Posted May 29 35 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said: Guess what? Right-wing suppression leads to left-wing revolt. This is a long-game and there are many nuances in Cold War strategy. And pollution can provoke environmentalism. Ergo, polluters like Dick Cheney can be thought of as environmentalists, eh? But, seriously, how many right-wing dictatorships did the CIA establish with a long-term goal of establishing successful counter-revolutions and left-wing, social democracies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said: And pollution can provoke environmentalism. Ergo, polluters like Dick Cheney can be thought of as environmentalists, eh? But, seriously, how many right-wing dictatorships did the CIA establish with a long-term goal of establishing successful counter-revolutions and left-wing, social democracies? You might want to see Colby here, beg. at 33:33, on the strategy of political warfare, at least as regards Western Europe. Different cultures and nations may necessitate different actions. I'm not defending any of it necessarily; I'm just explaining what has happened, with appreciation for complexity, accuracy and reality. indeed what I'm what I'm doing blows the lid of of the entire operation. Far more than screaming "the CIA did it!" That's not accurate enough fire. As I said "secret Agenda bothers no one." Moynihan as Deep Throat does. Moynihan as John McMahon does. CIA and KGB colluding at the top, through secret backchannels most definitely does. You don't seem to get that. Anyway, here's Colby, on Europe: "At that point we all considered that the communists were on the left. And so the question comes to mind, why didn't we turn to the Right to resist the ... communists? ... and we said, you can turn to the Right, and at that point you leave the center open to penetration by the communists. And then, if they get both the Left and the Center, they've got the victory. The battle will take place in the center. The battle for the loyalties of these western European countries will be a center battle, and the Right is irrelevant, because the Right has nowhere else to go." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said: Anyway just thought I would share what little I know of Ms. Doris Days possible political sentiments...for what it's worth. The above video of Ms. Day singing "Que Sera Sera" prompted me to do so. Thanks, Joe, for a thoroughly enjoyable narrative. Never thought there was any value at all to the pop videos sprinkled throughout the various threads. Come to think of it Ms. Day had an extensive songbook. Maybe the Adminstrel has a video of "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles," suitable entertainment for the transparent discussion thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted May 30 Author Share Posted May 30 3 hours ago, Michael Kalin said: Thanks, Joe, for a thoroughly enjoyable narrative. Never thought there was any value at all to the pop videos sprinkled throughout the various threads. Come to think of it Ms. Day had an extensive songbook. Maybe the Adminstrel has a video of "I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles," suitable entertainment for the transparent discussion thread. Michael, I've got nothing against white bread, or Doris Kappelhoff, but, if people are looking for a lady who could really sing the Great American Songbook, they need look no further than Ella Fitzgerald. One of my favorite CD box sets is Ella singing almost everything-- Gershwin, Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, Harold Arlen, Johnny Mercer, et.al.-- with accompaniments by the likes of Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong. IMO, Doris Day was, in a sense, a popular, Teutonic imitator of Ella Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald, Ella - The Complete Ella Fitzgerald Song Books - Amazon.com Music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 23 hours ago, Paul Brancato said: How does one do that? You hover over the picture and on the right the ignore option apepars. Also, thanks William about my VIetnam commentary. And understand when I say, I did not buy into the withdrawal thesis at first. I was very skeptical about it when I first encountered it. I can see now it was because I was brainwashed by all that Kennedy/Cold Warrior junk. So I decided to make that a prime focus of my research for a very long time. I concluded that I was wrong, Kennedy was getting out of Vietnam. And the guiding hand was Galbraith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cloud Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 (edited) The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com › 2023/11/08 › nyregion › eli... Nov 20, 2023 — Peter Galbraith, a former ambassador to Croatia and Senate staff member under Mr. Moynihan, described Mrs. Moynihan as “the architect” of ... An Evening with Ambassador Peter Galbraith and James K. Galbraith The evening began with an informal cocktail hour. James K. Galbraith, chair of EPS, then introduced his brother Ambassador Peter Galbraith. Ambassador Galbraith spoke on the topic of his new book The End of Iraq: How American Incompetence Created a War Without End. The Strategic Mind | John Kenneth Galbraith The New York Review of Books https://www.nybooks.com › Articles Oct 12, 1978 — Huntington, currently on assignment to the White House, to get Daniel Patrick Moynihan, also recently of Harvard, to make a public assault on a ... THE GALBRAITH‐KUH‐THUROW PLAN The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com › 1971/09/12 › archives › the... Sep 12, 1971 — Galbraith's neighbor, Professor Moynihan,. Edited May 30 by Matt Cloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Michael, I've got nothing against white bread, or Doris Kappelhoff, but, if people are looking for a lady who could really sing the Great American Songbook, they need look no further than Ella Fitzgerald. One of my favorite CD box sets is Ella singing almost everything-- Gershwin, Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, Harold Arlen, Johnny Mercer, et.al.-- with accompaniments by the likes of Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong. IMO, Doris Day was, in a sense, a popular, Teutonic imitator of Ella Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald, Ella - The Complete Ella Fitzgerald Song Books - Amazon.com Music I'm no big fan of tin pan alley but agree that Fitzgerald was super, IMHO at her best with Chick Webb. I don't think she owned a hotel in Carmel. My mistake for detouring into music when my intention was to express an appreciation of Joe's delightful bellboy tale, but it was hard to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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