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There were ten women on the fourth floor when it went down


Guest Bart Kamp
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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 2:23 PM, Bart Kamp said:

Bart,

There are 13 people on the 4th and 5th floor.  10 women (if you count McCully and Davis) and 3 men on the 5th floor. 

I think people are missing the point on the location and testimony of these people.  Only two people, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, said they heard shots coming from above them from the 6th floor.  Junior Jarman originally said the same thing, but changed his testimony while talking to Gerald Ford to hearing shots from low and to the left.

The 10 women indicated they heard shots coming from somewhere else mainly to the west.   I think Elsie Dorman said that shots came from the Court Records Building.  That makes 11 people out of 13 that did not hear shooting from the 6th floor.  These were the people closest to the 6th floor. 

There were more people on the upper floors if you count the windows that were edited.  Mary Hollies and Betty Foster claimed they were on the 5th Floor where they saw I believe Bonnie Ray Williams clomping by.

Therefore it can not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor.  Add that to the statement by Jesse Curry saying he never could put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand and don't forget the p. parade note.  Oswald walks.  Therefore he had to die and the quicker the better. 

Edited by John Butler
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2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

I have Stancak on ignore for a good reason Sandy. That drawing is utter rubbish and cannot be backed by any proof only Fetzerian conjecture.

And if you read my article then you'd know why they started to mess around with the women of the 4th fl.

It is all related to Adams' descent.

Bart,

Can you point me to the article you are talking about.  Anything about the 4th floor women is interesting to me.

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5 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Bart,

Can you point me to the article you are talking about.  Anything about the 4th floor women is interesting to me.

http://www.prayer-man.com/there-were-ten-women-on-the-fourth-floor-when-it-went-down/

20 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Bart,

There are 13 people on the 4th and 5th floor.  10 women (if you count McCully and Davis) and 3 men on the 5th floor. 

I think people are missing the point on the location and testimony of these people.  Only two people, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, said they heard shots coming from above them from the 6th floor.  Junior Jarman originally said the same thing, but changed his testimony while talking to Gerald Ford to hearing shots from low and to the left.

The 10 women indicated they heard shots coming from somewhere else mainly to the west.   I think Elsie Dorman said that shots came from the Court Records Building.  That makes 11 people out of 13 that did not hear shooting from the 6th floor.  These were the people closest to the 6th floor. 

There were more people on the upper floors if you count the windows that were edited.  Mary Hollies and Betty Foster claimed they were on the 5th Floor where they saw I believe Bonnie Ray Williams clomping by.

Therefore it can not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor.  Add that to the statement by Jesse Curry saying he never could put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand and don't forget the p. parade note.  Oswald walks.  Therefore he had to die and the quicker the better. 

14!

Jack Dougherty.

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Thanks Bart,

I rarely think of Jack Dougherty.  In a later statement he said he heard shots coming from above on the 6th floor.  Earlier in a statement he said he didn't know where the shots came from.

So, even if we go to 11 out of 14 (14 is iffy with Jack's statements) it still doesn't change the idea of reasonable doubt.  He was on the 5th floor, but are his statements reliable?

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1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

If you'd read what I posted, Bart, you'd see that McCully corrected her statement about where she was at the time of the shots when speaking to the DPD, not FBI, and that, furthermore, her correction never made it to the WC (at least as far as I can tell). It follows, then, that there was no mass conspiracy to hide her true location at the time of the shooting, or whatever you're implying. Her friend, Davis, moreover, was already on the record saying they were on the front steps when McCully let on that they were on the fourth floor. 

As far as the FBI pressuring her, sure, that rings true. Presumably someone noticed that Davis and McCully had made contradictory statements, and wanted it straightened out. So she did. AFTER she'd already clarified things for the DPD...

(If anyone can post the document in which the WC asked the DPD to interview McCully in February it would be appreciated. It seems apparent that the WC was having problems with the FBI at the time, and decided to go around them by asking the DPD to conduct some interviews on their behalf. It is suspicious, moreover, that some of these interviews ended up getting published in the commission's volumes, but not all of them, and that at least two of the missing interviews, Vickie Adams and Otis Williams, were with witnesses whose statements and/or subsequent statements suggested Oswald did not come down the back stairs.)

 

Victoria Adams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.39) “as the car…was passing, she heard three loud reports which she first thought to be fire crackers…and she believed the sound came from toward the right of the building…After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away. She had not been able to fully observe the President at the exact moment he was shot, inasmuch as her view was partially obstructed. She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs are located and ran down the stairs. No one else was observed on the stairs at this time, and she is sure that this would be the only means of escape from the building from the sixth floor.” (2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository and around to the front. I started down toward the railroad tracks when an officer stopped me and turned me back." (3-23-64 statement to the FBI, 22H632) “I recall that at about 12:30 PM, just after the car carrying President Kennedy had passed on the street below, I heard three loud reports which I first thought were firecrackers…After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H386-393) “I watched the motorcade... proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building… from our vantage point we were able to see what the President’s wife was wearing, the roses in the car…Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view…A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.  It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.”(When asked if she'd walked or ran to the back stairs) "I was running. We were running." (When asked if she saw anyone from when the shots were fired until she reached the ground floor) "Outside of our office employees; no." (2-2-02 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl On The Stairs, published 2011) "As they rounded the corner, they turned toward our building, waving and smiling. The car continued moving slowly and a tree obstructed my view. That is when I heard what I thought was a firecracker go off. As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car."

Otis Williams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.64) “at the time the Presidential procession passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Williams was on the front steps of the building. The Presidential car had just passed the building a few seconds and was out of sight over the embankment when Williams heard three loud blasts. He thought these blasts came from the location of the court house. He did not look up and immediately went back into the building into his office on the second floor. A few minutes later, Detectives came into the building and he went with a Detective to check the second floor of the building.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box folder 19 file 20 of the Dallas JFK  Archive) "He heard three shots that sounded like they were coming from the west side of the Texas School Book Depository. The president's car had gotten out of Mr. Williams' view when he heard the shots. Mr. Williams then came back into the building, and went to his office on the second floor. He then went to the fourth floor after hearing that the President had been shot. He used the stairway to go to the fourth floor, but stated that he did not see anyone on the stairway." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H683) “On November 22, 1963, at the time the Presidential motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me, but I do know that Mrs. Robert E. Saunders, also an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, viewed the motorcade. Just after the presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street. I did not then know that President Kennedy had been shot. I remained momentarily on the steps and then returned inside the building.” (No More Silence p.116-120, published 1998) “when the motorcade came around the corner and then made that bend to get to the underpass, I had a clear view as it passed by of the President and all in the car, and then it went behind a little wall going toward the underpass. Probably five or ten seconds later is when I first thought I heard the shots. The first one I assumed someone threw a firecracker… It was about five or ten seconds before he was hit when he went out of my sight. I definitely heard three shots. Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs back where the warehouse elevator was which led to the sixth floor and went up to the fourth floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass. After I got up there and saw that nothing was going on on the underpass, I turned around and came back down to the office and called my wife. Soon, while we were talking, people came in, officers rushed in, and I had to get off the phone... I could have gone down the steps while Oswald came down, but he came down on the elevator. Anyway, I walked down the steps but didn't see him or anything.”

You are preaching to the choir Pat Speer.

If you used some basic common sense then it would be most unusual that one FBI statement shortly after the assassination stating one thing (the 4th fl) and the statements way after that state the front steps is another. Take into consideration what the FBI did in those days after the assassination then one would be quite right to suspect foul play, especially in conjunction with Victoria Adams descent. 

Add on these two are nowhere to be found in Wiegman, nor did anyone mention them.

Pffff I have written all of this already and am starting to repeat myself.

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40 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Bart,

I rarely think of Jack Dougherty.  In a later statement he said he heard shots coming from above on the 6th floor.  Earlier in a statement he said he didn't know where the shots came from.

So, even if we go to 11 out of 14 (14 is iffy with Jack's statements) it still doesn't change the idea of reasonable doubt.  He was on the 5th floor, but are his statements reliable?

I have not written about JD yet and the 5th floor three I did mention was just an add on to what I already had written to the 4th fl occupants and only in conjunction with the 4th floor: them stopping and talking to peeps on that floor on their way down. The obfuscation of the 4th floor happenings is what I have brought up.

No other theorising is needed.

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2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

(If anyone can post the document in which the WC asked the DPD to interview McCully in February it would be appreciated.

Pat,

Mrs. McCully was interviewed by W.E. Potts, Homicide and Robbery Bureau February 18, 1964,

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 61.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

Mrs. Avery Davis was Interviewed by B.L. Senkel, Homicide and Robbery Bureau February 18, 1964

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 64

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

Both said they were standing on the front steps. McCully thought the shots came from the arcade. Davis thought they came from the railroad yards. After the shooting, they went back inside.

Both worked for Scott-Foresman. McCully had seen Oswald around. Davis said she never saw him, that he worked for a different company (the TSBD) and that they used different elevators.

McCully tried to leave the TSBD after the shooting, but was stopped by the police.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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Good work Steve, and that date brings something else to the table. Which I was going to save but since you have brought it up......

Victoria Adams' statement was taken on the 17th by Leavelle and the very first mention of the so called Shelley/Lovelady encounter on the frst fl.

Something she denied saying to him and Sandra Styles independently corroborated as a non event. They met a tall black man instead.

I will go out this far and say that the statements from Feb 17th and 18th need a closer look and are suspicious to say the least. The Criminal Intelligence Division and the D.P.D. worked hard on getting their 'story' sorted.

 

Report-typed-by-J.-R.-Leavelle-1.jpg

 

Report-typed-by-J.-R.-Leavelle2-1.jpg

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2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pat,

Mrs. McCully was interviewed by W.E. Potts, Homicide and Robbery Bureau February 18, 1964,

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 61.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

Mrs. Avery Davis was Interviewed by B.L. Senkel, Homicide and Robbery Bureau February 18, 1964

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 64

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

Both said they were standing on the front steps. McCully thought the shots came from the arcade. Davis thought they came from the railroad yards. After the shooting, they went back inside.

Both worked for Scott-Foresman. McCully had seen Oswald around. Davis said she never saw him, that he worked for a different company (the TSBD) and that they used different elevators.

McCully tried to leave the TSBD after the shooting, but was stopped by the police.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Thanks, Steve. I quoted those reports in a previous post. My question is as to why the Homicide and Robbery people started up interviewing TSBD employees in February, only to stop a few days later. And why some, but not all, of their reports were published by the Warren Commission. I've gotta believe there's a document somewhere in which the WC asked the DPD for help, and explained why this came to pass. 

I think Jim Leavelle discussed this in an interview somewhere. If anyone remembers where this was I would be grateful. 

 

Edited by Pat Speer
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12 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks, Steve. I quoted those reports in a previous post. My question is as to why the Homicide and Robbery people started up interviewing TSBD employees in February, only to stop a few days later. And why some, but not all, of their reports were published by the Warren Commission. I've gotta believe there's a document somewhere in which the WC asked the DPD for help, and explained why this came to pass.

Pat,

This is just a guess on my part, but I think I may have an answer to your question. It's found in your quote of the Vickie Adams interview. I think what happened in the interim was the Jack Ruby trial.

CD 81 is the DPD’s case file that was turned over to the Warren Commission by Waggoner Carr, the Attorney General for the State of Texas, on January 7, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483

Beginning on page 311, it contains all the records of the police department’s interviews with witnesses that had been collected up to that date. Most of these were eye witness statements taken on November 22, 1963

 

In the Warren Commission Executive Session transcript of January 21, 1964

pp 13-14, there is this passage:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1326#relPageId=14&tab=page

image.png.dc5953fdad7b0716d629b72b01a02a47.png

image.png.fcb39fe615ed21124b9de9adeecbb383.png

These follow up interviews by the DPD with eye witnesses seem to be centered around the 17th and 18th of February.

Interview with Pierce Allman February 18, 1964. concerning his use of the telephone on 11/22/63:

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 50

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

image.png.bcc247d934791e6a9983814f8d95cae1.png

 

Interview with Vickie Adams February 17, 1964

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder$ 6, Item# 49

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

image.png.14e4e06e5f8b1470d25237c65b810b5f.png

image.thumb.png.cf264810257302b71c106c907e1fe777.png

 

Why were Pierce Allman and Vickie Adams being asked in the third week of February if they saw Jack Ruby in the vicinity on 11/22/63?

Something must have come up in connection with Ruby's upcoming trial.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Pat,

This is just a guess on my part, but I think I may have an answer to your question. It's found in your quote of the Vickie Adams interview. I think what happened in the interim was the Jack Ruby trial.

CD 81 is the DPD’s case file that was turned over to the Warren Commission by Waggoner Carr, the Attorney General for the State of Texas, on January 7, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483

Beginning on page 311, it contains all the records of the police department’s interviews with witnesses that had been collected up to that date. Most of these were eye witness statements taken on November 22, 1963

 

In the Warren Commission Executive Session transcript of January 21, 1964

pp 13-14, there is this passage:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1326#relPageId=14&tab=page

image.png.dc5953fdad7b0716d629b72b01a02a47.png

image.png.fcb39fe615ed21124b9de9adeecbb383.png

These follow up interviews by the DPD with eye witnesses seem to be centered around the 17th and 18th of February.

Interview with Pierce Allman February 18, 1964. concerning his use of the telephone on 11/22/63:

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 50

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

image.png.bcc247d934791e6a9983814f8d95cae1.png

 

Interview with Vickie Adams February 17, 1964

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder$ 6, Item# 49

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

image.png.14e4e06e5f8b1470d25237c65b810b5f.png

image.thumb.png.cf264810257302b71c106c907e1fe777.png

 

Why were Pierce Allman and Vickie Adams being asked in the third week of February if they saw Jack Ruby in the vicinity on 11/22/63?

Something must have come up in connection with Ruby's upcoming trial.

 

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve. That actually makes some sense. Presumably, the DPD was asked by Wade to see if they could place Ruby at the depository. If they could, it would suggest he knew Oswald and would cut into his claim his killing Oswald was a spontaneous act of madness, as opposed to a pre-meditated act of murder.  

Edited by Pat Speer
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