Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Jack White]

If you cannot see the NBC peacock logo in the corner, so

much for your observations.

Jack

[Jack White]

Jack

1- Provide evidence this shot was from NBC.

2 - One of the central quetions is timing when was this supposed NBC frame taken. Can you substantiate when it was taken and wasn't altered?

3- You have yet to come up with one civil engineer or architect from anywhere in the World who supports your claims about WTCs 1 & 2. As far as I can tell none do, not even ones from countries like Iran and Cuba which are hostile to the US, why do you suppose that is?

4 - Why do you quote neo-Nazi sites like AFP do you find them credible? What about their claims that the Holocaust was a hoax, do you find those credible too? AFP is published by Willis Carto try googling his name.

Jack you are one making claims it is incumbant on you to offer evidence that they are true. Much to your buddy Fetzer's chagrin I backed my challenges to his theories with evidence.

Calling Carto a neo-nazi makes no sense. His publication exposed

the role of the CIA in the JFK assassination.

Well known neo-nazis Cheney and Rumsfeld are the chief suspects

in the events of 911.

So Carto = Cheney/Rumsfeld?

Hmmmmm.

Jack

[Len Colby]

Jack

1- Provide evidence this shot was from NBC.

2 - One of the central questions is timing when was this supposed NBC frame taken. Can you substantiate when it was taken and wasn't altered?

3- You have yet to come up with one civil engineer or architect from anywhere in the World who supports your claims about WTCs 1 & 2. As far as I can tell none do, not even ones from countries like Iran and Cuba which are hostile to the US, why do you suppose that is?

4 - Why do you quote neo-Nazi sites like AFP do you find them credible? What about their claims that the Holocaust was a hoax, do you find those credible too? AFP is published by Willis Carto try googling his name.

Jack you are one making claims it is incumbant on you to offer evidence that they are true. Much to your buddy Fetzer's chagrin I backed my challenges to his theories with evidence.

Calling Carto a neo-nazi makes no sense. His publication exposed

the role of the CIA in the JFK assassination.

Well known neo-nazis Cheney and Rumsfeld are the chief suspects

in the events of 911.

So Carto = Cheney/Rumsfeld?

Hmmmmm.

Jack

Gee Jack I'm glad you know what you're talking about!!!!! LOL

1. Cheney and Rumsfeld are rightwing asshole extemists but they aren't neo-Nazi's obviously. If you have any evidence to the contrary lets hear it

2. Carto doesn't like the CIA because he believes it like the rest of the Federal Government is controlled by the Jews

3. IIRC the Spotlight accused E. Howard Hunt of involvement in the assassination(with out substantiation) but didn't mention the CIA. People (you included I think) suspected the CIA long before your Nazi hero published that article.

4. As for Carto not being a Nazi read below

Willis A. Carto: Fabricating History

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If Satan himself... had tried to create a... force for the destruction of the nations, he could have done no better than to invent the Jews."

-- Willis Carto

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officially the "Treasurer" of the Washington, DC-based Liberty Lobby, Willis Allison Carto is the group's founder and driving force. Over the group's 40-year history, Carto has come into contact with virtually every significant figure on the radical right and he remains perhaps the most influential professional anti-Semite in the United States.

In 1955, Carto announced that he was organizing "a lobby for patriotism," which eventually became known as Liberty Lobby — presently the most influential right-wing extremist propaganda organization in the United States. Although Carto is Liberty Lobby's founder and leader, he typically directs the group's operations from behind the scenes. For example, in an August 15, 1993, letter to The Washington Post Book World — itself a rare instance of Carto appearing in a non-Liberty Lobby forum — the veteran hatemonger described himself as "an officer and (low-paid) employee" of the organization he created. Shunning attention, he rarely speaks in public, generally refuses to be interviewed, and even keeps his name off the masthead of Liberty Lobby's weekly tabloid, The Spotlight. His official title of "Treasurer" greatly understates the scope of his authority.

While running Liberty Lobby from the shadows, Carto established a network of extremist publications and organizations. In 1966, he acquired control of the magazine American Mercury, originally associated with H.L. Mencken, and transformed it into a quarterly journal of anti-Semitic propaganda. He issued it in tandem with the bimonthly Washington Observer Newsletter, similarly laced with anti-Semitism. Both are now defunct. Previously, Carto had founded Western Destiny (also defunct), a magazine which during the 1960s produced racist, Nazi-tinged articles; and Noontide Press, which continues to publish and offer for sale anti-Jewish and pro-Nazi books.

One such book was Francis Parker Yockey's 600-page Imperium, which was dedicated to Adolf Hitler and featured a 35-page introduction written by Carto himself. Yockey, an outspoken admirer of Hitler, was arrested in San Francisco in 1960 on passport fraud charges and subsequently committed suicide in prison. His book offers a rehash of Nazi doctrine -- it denounced, for example, "the Church-State-Nation-People-Race of the Jew" as "distorters of culture."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hitler's defeat was the defeat of Europe. And of America. . . . The blame . . . must be laid at the door of the international Jews."

-- Willis Carto

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yockey's ideology pervades the propaganda of Liberty Lobby and its off-shoots, such as the Institute for Historical Review (IHR), which specializes in Holocaust-denial propaganda, and the Populist Party, a far-right political vehicle. This extremist agenda persists among these groups in spite of the fact that the Populist Party -- since renamed the American Nationalist Union -- and IHR have broken from Carto and the Liberty Lobby network. Under oath during proceedings connected with an unsuccessful Liberty Lobby lawsuit against ADL in 1979, Carto admitted to remaining faithful to the tenets of Yockey's neo-Nazi philosophy.

As deep as his attachment to Yockey is Carto's antipathy toward Jews. (A racist as well as an anti-Semite, Carto complained during the 1950s that "only a few Americans are concerned about the inevitable niggerfication of America.") In October 1966, the late columnist Drew Pearson published the contents of a letter written by Carto which stated:

"Hitler's defeat was the defeat of Europe. And of America. How could we have been so blind? The blame, it seems, must be laid at the door of the international Jews. It was their propaganda, lies and demands which blinded the West to what Germany was doing. . . . If Satan himself, with all of his superhuman genius and diabolical ingenuity at his command, had tried to create a permanent disintegration and force for the destruction of the nations, he could have done no better than to invent the Jews."

In a subsequent memo, Carto elaborated on these beliefs:

"Who is using who [sic]? Who is calling the shots? History supplies the answer to this. History tells us plainly who our Enemy is. Our Enemy today is the same Enemy of 50 years ago and before -- and that was before Communism. The Communists are 'using' the Jews we are told. . . . [W]ho was 'using the Jews 50 years ago --100 or 1,000 years ago. History supplies the answer. The Jews came first and remain Public Enemy No. 1."

Carto's anti-Semitism was further manifested in the Institute for Historical Review, which he founded in 1979 to spearhead a movement to deny the reality of the Holocaust and to market Holocaust-denial propaganda. Carto was aided at the start by William David McCalden, a racist and anti-Semitic British publicist who -- using the alias Lewis Brandon -- served as IHR director until 1981 (when he left due to differences with Carto). Based in Costa Mesa, California, the IHR operated under a guise of scholarship and published spurious "revisionist" studies laced with anti-Semitic themes in its quarterly Journal of Historical Review and the now-discontinued IHR Newsletter. Carto promoted the Institute, contributors to its publications and Holocaust denial generally in The Spotlight and on "Radio Free America." A 15-page "Holocaust supplement" in the December 24, 1979, issue of The Spotlight included headlines that amplified Carto's unique rendition of the holiday spirit: "Were Six Million Jews Exterminated?" "Famous 'Gas Chamber Victims' Living Well," "Need $50,000? Find a Holocaust Victim," "Torture Used to Make Germans 'Confess.'" As Deborah Lipstadt has noted, The Spotlight ran articles claiming that Auschwitz victims were cremated to control typhoid, that the "gas chambers" were actually life-saving delousing showers, that the Diary of Anne Frank was a hoax and that Jews created the six million number to convince the United Nations to support the creation of Israel.

Carto was also able to gather virtually all of the world's foremost deniers at IHR's annual conferences, as well as surviving Nazis, children of Nazis, anti-Jewish polemicists not known for their views about the Holocaust and nonracist iconoclasts (like Hitler biographer John Toland and journalist John Sack). Carto set the tone for these events with his remarks at the organization's first conference in 1979, calling the Holocaust "atrocity propaganda" and declaring Zionists to be "predators" who exploit the "guilt" of the West and "offer us expiation for the sins of our fathers by giving us the magnificent opportunity to contribute to the building of God's promised land for God's chosen people with our tax money."

In September 1993, the Institute's editorial staff and board of directors voted to terminate its association with its founder. On October 4, 1993, Carto received a letter announcing that he had been "fired." According to court documents, the falling-out stemmed from the purchase of a new Cadillac by Carto's wife using IHR funds, Carto's purchase of an insufficient insurance policy prior to a 1984 arson that destroyed IHR's warehouse and offices, his skimping on pay and health benefits and his "launching and subsequent mishandling of the reward offer" in the Mel Mermelstein affair. The latter referred to a civil judgment successfully brought against IHR by Auschwitz survivor Mermelstein after the Institute failed to pay him a $50,000 "reward" it had offered for "proof" that the Nazis had operated execution gas chambers during World War II. (The 1985 court judgment forced IHR to pay both the $50,000 reward and an additional $40,000 for pain and suffering.) IHR's director at the time, Tom Marcellus, also alleged that Carto planned to redesign the Journal for Historical Review into a more straightforwardly racist publication.

The most significant stake in this controversy was control of as much as $10 million in stock certificates bequeathed to IHR's parent corporation, The Legion for the Survival of Freedom, by Jean Farrel, an heir of Thomas Edison. The summer before Carto's "dismissal," Marcellus reportedly discovered a $100,000 bank order for Liberty Lobby drawn from the Farrel bequest. According to Marcellus, Carto had directed his wife to set up a corporation for the sole purpose of controlling Farrel's money and loaning it back to the Legion -- thus making the Legion a less attractive target for potential lawsuits. Because the IHR defined itself as the Legion, the senior staffers demanded control of the money bequeathed to the parent company. Marcellus discovered that while Carto had long claimed to be merely the corporation's "agent," the Legion listed as a corporate director a person who had been dead for five years; the board had never met; and Carto was the sole and controlling voice. Marcellus and his colleagues and lawyer were able to assemble a new board that terminated all association with Carto.

Carto's immediate response was to arrange a meeting with the IHR principals and their lawyer. While they waited for Carto at the lawyer's office, he went instead to IHR headquarters with his wife and three others and began disconnecting telephones, changing locks and tampering with computers; he also faxed the IHR attorney, stating that he was "now in control of the IHR office." A scuffle ensued, and he was ultimately dragged from the premises by police as he screamed, "You're killing me."

As the dispute entered a long and complicated litigation that would involve several lawsuits -- and prompt a relentless campaign of vituperation and false rumor by Carto -- The Spotlight announced in August 1994 that Liberty Lobby was launching a new publication devoted to historical revisionism called The Barnes Review (after the 20th century revisionist historian Harry Elmer Barnes). In a Spotlight editorial, Carto stated:

Real news, like real history, is very controversial in this day of the politicization of both. So what is more appropriate than for The Barnes Review to be assisted by the staff of the one American newspaper, The Spotlight, which has proven...to be far ahead of the rest of the news media in reporting events...which are habitually hushed up by that same media which touts myth and lies as history?

Fortune has not smiled on Carto in recent years. On November 15, 1996, California Superior Court Judge Runston G. Maino ruled in favor of IHR, saying Carto owed the group and the Legion for the Survival of Freedom, $6.43 million of the estimated $7.5 million bequeathed by Farrel. Judge Maino further characterized Carto's role in the proceedings: "I found that much of his testimony made no sense; much of his testimony in court was different from his previous testimony; much of his testimony was contradicted by other witnesses or by documents. By the end of the trial I was of the opinion that Mr. Carto lacked candor, lacked memory, and lacked the ability to be forthright about what he did honestly remember."

In response to the decision, both Carto and Liberty Lobby filed for bankruptcy. After three years of legal and extralegal maneuverings to slow or avoid making debt payments and, allegedly, to shield his assets in corporate shells, a series of Federal Bankruptcy Court decisions in June and July 2001 forced him to relinquish control over The Spotlight and Liberty Lobby. He also lost the Washington, D.C., offices Liberty Lobby had occupied for 40 years. Hardly slowing, Carto and his associates produced a rejiggered version of The Spotlight in August called the American Free Press.

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/carto.asp

[Len Colby]

For more about Carto and his ties to the American Nazi Party, George Wallace and other fashists read this article.

http://www.buildingdemocracy.org/reports/B...s_color_web.pdf

[Jack White]

Now I get it. Anyone who is anti-Israel is a nazi.

Jack

[Len Colby]

Pearson acknowledged that he had not even read these books at the time but had received "reports" of their great value, probably from Willis Carto, who had been organizing a campaign, centered around Cox's work, to stop the "niggerfication of America."

…

Yockey viewed Jews as "Culture Distorters," intent on destroying Western civilization; his book, Imperium, dedicated to "the Hero of the Second World War" (i.e., Adolf Hitler), has been called the bible of the contemporary Nazi community, "a neo-Mein Kampf for neo-Nazis," and Carto bragged that he had himself contributed Imperium's "brilliant Introduction."

…

In place of the fired instructors, all of whom had the appropriate doctorate and favorable teaching evaluations, Pearson hired Swan, an ex-convict who had never completed his doctorate and was unemployable elsewhere, and Kuttner, fresh from his Pioneer-subsidized position in Shockley's lab, a biochemist who taught anthropology at USM despite having no relevant training or qualification in the discipline beyond Willis Carto's observation that he was an "extremely valuable man for our side, and a racist to his toes."

…

As one of the featured speakers at the annual conference of the Institute for Historical Review—the revisionist organization founded by Willis Carto, the patron saint of Holocaust denial—Whitney identified the source of the egalitarian conspiracy, explaining to an audience filled with Holocaust deniers and Nazi sympathizers that Jews were using the same tactics in science as they had used to invent the Holocaust: creating a "fake" to advance their own interests.

…

the most popular magazines among AR's readers included five neo-Nazi publications: Wilmot Robertson's Instauration, Willis Carto's Spotlight, Ed Fields's Truth at Last, William Pierce's National Vanguard, and the Journal of Historical Review, dedicated to Holocaust denial.*

…

http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/books/tucker/ch4.html

* AR = Aryan Resistance, the Spotlight was the tabloid that accused Hunt. Carto was also the publisher of the Journal of Historical Review.

David Duke's National Conference in New Orleans, LA, May 28-30, 2004 assembled together the largest number of distinguished White Rights LEADERS I've ever seen together during my 35 years as an activist and leader. I'll list some of them:

David Duke, Don Black, Willis Carto, James Kelso, Attorney Sam Dickson, Dr Edward Fields, Kevin Strom, John Tyndall, Bob Whitaker, Germar Rudolf, Paul Fromm, Attorney Edgar Steele, Roy Armstrong, David Pringle, Howie JFarrell, Kenny Knight, James Edwards, Ron Doggett and James Warner.

(From the American White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc. Forum Index)

http://64.233.179.104/search?sourceid=navc...feb10ccddda8df7

IR: Do you have a sense of how and why Carto got into the radical right?

Blodgett: He told me that he was never racially conscious at all ý "except," and this is a quote, "for the normal stuff, like hating niggers" ý until he worked for Procter & Gamble as a bill collector in California in the early '50s. And he said Jewish people were even better than the blacks at avoiding having to pay.

I think a lot of his attitudes were formed in the days of the White Citizens Councils, after the 1954 Supreme Court decision [outlawing "separate but equal" public schools].

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport...cle.jsp?pid=523

Now I get it. Anyone who is anti-Israel is a nazi.

Jack

No people who praise Hitler, associate with the Klan, Nazi etc. deny the Holocaust, say Jews control the World, and call African Americans Niggers etc. are. Do you know how to read?

Edited December 11, 2005 by Len Colby

[Scott Deitche]

Most simply put, the mob controlled unions & Port Authority traitors, failed to complain -- about the below minimum "Building Code" violations in the design, engineering, and architecture; but moreover, kept quiet about the use of "bar-joists" as floor deckings, coupled with the "cheapo" blowing on of insufficient fire-proofing chemical upon said steel. The so-called fire-proofing was blown on by cheap copies of the real blowers, and were nothing more than glorified "hair-dry blowers". The "load-bearing" components were the "central core" and the "outer steel framing" -- and when "pre" or "post-stressed" concrete beams, slabs, and shear-walls were not implemented, structural failure was guaranteed !!

_____________________________

My Dad was an Ironworker as well. TOugh job.

I brought up the mob angle to a professional 9/11 CT guy who was giving a talk in Tampa this past week. he was on a local call in show. The mob did control all construction and trades in NYC back in the day and often used cheapo materials. To say what was supposed to be in the towers is one thing- what was actually in there couldd be quite another.

The mob had a big hand throughout the 1990's, and even today with all the investigations and turncoats, they are still active in the unions.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I don't remember the source or details (it's been a few years since I read it), but the way in which Diana was killed was very similar to a previous assassination plot that was aborted (don't remember why) against someone else (don't remember who) by some intelligence agency (don't remember which). I recall that it involved a blinding light to cause a car crash. I'll have to search for it again when I get the chance.

Ron, with all due respect, what caused the crash was a heavily intoxicated driver, driving at high speeds though Paris, to avoid a ravenous paperattzi. What made it worse was Diana's refusal to wear a seat belt. Both herself, and Dodi al Fayed died as a result of their injuries. The bodygaurd, who was wearing a belt survived. Diana's lifestyle had become so chaotic, mainly due to constant Press intrusion (Which she encouraged) that it made an accident of this nature much more likely. for those who believe it was more than an accident two questions 1, Why have her killed, And 2, why choose this haphazard maner.

[Dawn Meredith]

I don't remember the source or details (it's been a few years since I read it), but the way in which Diana was killed was very similar to a previous assassination plot that was aborted (don't remember why) against someone else (don't remember who) by some intelligence agency (don't remember which). I recall that it involved a blinding light to cause a car crash. I'll have to search for it again when I get the chance.

James et al: I read about a year or more ago that the Fiat driver was found dead under suspicious circumstances. One of the things that made me wonder about Diana.

Dawn

Ron, with all due respect, what caused the crash was a heavily intoxicated driver, driving at high speeds though Paris, to avoid a ravenous paperattzi. What made it worse was Diana's refusal to wear a seat belt. Both herself, and Dodi al Fayed died as a result of their injuries. The bodygaurd, who was wearing a belt survived. Diana's lifestyle had become so chaotic, mainly due to constant Press intrusion (Which she encouraged) that it made an accident of this nature much more likely. for those who believe it was more than an accident two questions 1, Why have her killed, And 2, why choose this haphazard maner.

Steve:

I agree with you IF this did indeed happen. But there has been evidence that the driver was not drunk. (I have mostly seen this on tv documentaries, so can't cite references, sorry) Also: When we live in a society that kills our president then lies, kills our peace leaders and lies and kills the president's brother and lies, then I guess ordinary accidents can arouse in us suspicion. Like John Lennon's, and Diana's. "Murder Inc" is so much more prevailent then most of us even realize, but of course tragic accidents also occur. So do tragic plane crashes. In which category John Jr and Paul Wesllstone fall, I am not certain. Hale Boggs however, I think is far more suspicious. And Dorothy Hunt: I'm with Chuckie Colson here: she was murdered.

Dawn

[Len Colby]

Now I get it. Anyone who is anti-Israel is a nazi.

Jack

There was only one mention of Israel in the article I posted.

"The Spotlight ran articles claiming that Auschwitz victims were cremated to control typhoid, that the "gas chambers" were actually life-saving delousing showers, that the Diary of Anne Frank was a hoax and that Jews created the six million number to convince the United Nations to support the creation of Israel. "

it also contained this quote

"Hitler's defeat was the defeat of Europe. And of America. . . . The blame . . . must be laid at the door of the international Jews."

-- Willis Carto

So if you think quoting Carto's publications boosts your case go ahead. Don't you think that by doing so you help make him more respectable?

What if someone who was challenging your "theories" quoted neo-Nazi publications to back their arguments?

[Dawn Meredith]

To try and return to the original thrust of this topic, research, like any scientific discipline, needs to be constantly tested using ones original hypothesis. ie my hypothesis might be stated as, "It is a provable fact that historically governments have acted against the best interests of their citizens for strategic, and finacial considerations.Given their stated aims, (PNAC) and their desire to control oil interests in the middle east I BELIEVE that the Bush administration deliberately created an environment that invited terrorist attacks against mainland America, and used such as a justification for 1, invasion of Afganistan, and Iraq. 2, to demonise political opponents as unpatriotic. 3, to portray Bush in a more positive light as a war leader. 4, to allow easy passage of anti-democratic legislation (Patriot act) 5, for the continued enrichment of political fellow travellers, and corporate America in general." My research journey thus far has taken me to some strange shores, it now appears to me that at their farthest ends it is almost impossible to distinguish left, from right, and a constant theme here is anti-semitism "protocols of the elders of zion" The Illuminatti""One World government" through either Communism, facism, Capitalism, or a strange hybrid of all three, with of course Jews at the head. People who fail to constantly test their hypothesis inlight of new information, or who simply want easy answers find this strange brew compelling, it requires little of them, and as Len stated at the beginning of this thread resembles, at its end, the more dogmatic of religious belief. researchers need to beware who they get into bed with philosophically, as the old saying goes, "never make friends in the dark. Steve.

Stephen:

I think your research has caused you to draw valid conclusions. However, we have long noted that in CT circles there are also many disinformationists throwing up wacco claims, like denial of the holocaust , so that it may be maintained that all CTs are just mentally unstable. Of course there are those individuals who are genuinely anti-semetic and trace all conspircy back to the Jews, which is pure nonsence. We must always guard against these writings, while not ignoring evidence of conspiracy, where ever it may lurk, including 9-11.

Dawn

[Len Colby]

If you cannot see the NBC peacock logo in the corner, so

much for your observations.

Jack

Jack

I know you are familiar with PhotoShop, how long do you think it would take someone to add that logo? 2 - 3 min. if they knew what they were doing? The frame obviously has been altered or do you want us to believe the labels where put there by NBC?

You also have not answered the crucial question of when the frame was taken nor have you answered Steve's questions or provided evidence that the CNN frame was taken at 9:03.

I'm also waiting for your reply to question 3

"You have yet to come up with one civil engineer or architect from anywhere in the World who supports your claims about WTCs 1 & 2. As far as I can tell none do, not even ones from countries like Iran and Cuba which are hostile to the US, why do you suppose that is?"

I first asked you that a few months ago.

Len

Edited December 11, 2005 by Len Colby

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Dawn, you know how much respect I have for you and Ron, but really, my friend there is nothing here. The rumours about Henri Paul, started circulating in the gutter press after Dodi's father said he had never seen Paul drunk, and as far as I know have no more weight than that. Blood alcohol test's revealed him to be way over the limit, were these tests faked? anythings a possibility I suppose, but this lies in the land of pure speculation, and if, and until some harder evidence comes along, thats were it remains. Di was no JFK, she posed no real threat to the State, just a diletante Princess leading a life of unbelievable luxery, and strident hypocracy, campaigning against landmines (OH the photo ops that stunt brought) Whilst walking out with the Nephew of the Worlds Biggest arms dealer (Kharshogi) And the old chestnut about Di bearing muslem princes to dodi is rubbish, She had no claim to the throne, not being of Royal blood, so it follows neither would any offspring. So the questions remain, Why have her killed? And why in this incredibly risky maner.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Dawn, I agree, all leads must be followed until 1, they prove conclusive 2, they prove inconclusive or 3, no firm conclusions can be draw without further research. I continue my research into 911, being very careful to avoid traps of all kinds. Regards Steve.

[Len Colby]

Cheney and Rumsfeld are the chief suspects in the events of 911

They are the "chief suspects" of a small fringe group. The evidence doesn't back such suspicions.

How did the planes end up flying into the WTC and Pentagon?