Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[John Geraghty]

Now that is very interesting! Now, he thinks one was a controlled demolition and another not. Where does this leave your conclusions Brian? I am just wondering whether you accept his WT7 explanation and not his WT1,2.

Let me just say that what I wrote above could be read as sarcasm, but it is not . That is a very interesting account.

John

[Brian Smith]

Now that is very interesting! Now, he thinks one was a controlled demolition and another not. Where does this leave your conclusions Brian? I am just wondering whether you accept his WT7 explanation and not his WT1,2.

Let me just say that what I wrote above could be read as sarcasm, but it is not . That is a very interesting account.

John

Yes, it is interesting. Perhaps he may one day change his mind about the towers collapsing due solely to the plane impacts and ensuing fires - or maybe he believes that building 7 was wired for demolition in the eight hours available on that day. Could it be possible to prepare such an finely tuned demolition job in such a short time? And even if this is what happened, why does the National Institute for Standards and Technology team that investigated the collapses still not know about it? Their report says that the only valid explanation for the collapse of building 7 is that it collapsed due to fire and damage caused by falling debris from the north tower, but that this explanation has "a very low probability of occurance".

Edited March 4, 2007 by Brian Smith

[Myra Bronstein]

...--although it leans towards cover up of a 'buraucratic bungling' sort.

Yeah. I know I'm being close-minded. But hey, I gotta have some kind of credibility barometer. And I don't tend to buy 'buraucratic bungling' explanations of such major events. Esp major events that obviously benefited the evil overlords--BFEE and war profiteers, and that fit in perfectly with known PNAC plans.

Oh, I should add that I haven't watched the program.

[Ron Ecker]

I don't tend to buy 'buraucratic bungling' explanations of such major events. Esp major events that obviously benefited the evil overlords--BFEE and war profiteers, and that fit in perfectly with known PNAC plans.

All you have to do is weld incompetence theory together with coincidence theory. Then you have, what shall we call it, the incompcidence theory of 9/11. Much more robust, more of a theory of everything, than the incompetence and coincidence theories by themselves.

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

Mike,

I tuned in too late to C-SPAN books to catch the first show, will try to see Peter Lance tonight. Instead I got Patrick Coyle, author of "The Conservative Guide to Campus Activism," who is talking to high school students about starting Conservative Clubs in school and paying conservative speakers - they don't do it for free. For more info: See ReaganRanch@yaf.com. What a bunch of crackers. Taking credit for the fall of the Berlin Wall again and poisoning the minds of young kids.

Triple Cross is an important book, as Peter Dale Scott talks about in his Dallas COPA 2006 talk (See thread on that topic).

His other two books, "1000 Years of Revenge" and "Cover Up" are equally important, all published by Judith Regan at Harper Collins, who lost her job over the OJ flap.

Besides writing the most detailed account so far of al Qaeda double agent Ali Mohamed and the flight 800 explosion off Long Island were al Qaeda attacks.

BK

--------

Bill, you mention Lance's argument that TWA flight 800 was an al Qaeda attack. I found his argument quite convincing, that it was an al Qaeda attack. I was less convinced, however, by his account of why the US attorneys decided not to presecuste it as a terrorist attack. He says that to treat 800 as a terrorsit attack, the FBI would have needed to blow the cover of a witness who had helped make a lot of key cases related to the early 1990's mafia turf war in Brooklyn. He argues that these cases helped make a lot of careers in the FBI and in the Southern Manhattan DA's office, if I'm not mistaken. While his argurment here seemed plausible, It was not nearly as convincing as his argument that 800 was al Qaeda.

Did you read his previous book, Coverup? What did you think of the way he addressed these two major questions?

[William Kelly]

Mike,

Bill, you mention Lance's argument that TWA flight 800 was an al Qaeda attack. I found his argument quite convincing, that it was an al Qaeda attack. I was less convinced, however, by his account of why the US attorneys decided not to presecuste it as a terrorist attack. He says that to treat 800 as a terrorsit attack, the FBI would have needed to blow the cover of a witness who had helped make a lot of key cases related to the early 1990's mafia turf war in Brooklyn. He argues that these cases helped make a lot of careers in the FBI and in the Southern Manhattan DA's office, if I'm not mistaken. While his argurment here seemed plausible, It was not nearly as convincing as his argument that 800 was al Qaeda.

Did you read his previous book, Coverup? What did you think of the way he addressed these two major questions?

Hi Nate,

No I haven't read his previous books yet, but have Coverup and will read it when I get the chance. Will have to get back to you on it.

Also will try to get around to your other thread on the Miller Center, which I have a thick file on.

BK

[Scott Deitche]

Triple Cross, along with Lance's two other books, does a bang-up job of deep-sixing the "how can Arabs in a cave carry this out, the government must have done it" theory. He systematically shows the timeline of Al-Queda's operations in America starting with the assasination of Rabbi Kahane in New York City.

One thing that you do come out of these books feeling is that Ramzi Yousef was the real mastermind behind most of the early Al-Queda attacks, and while Bin Laden provides financial support, he doesn't really come into the picture until later.

As for why the FBI and US Attorney's office screwed up so badly , you really need to get a handle on how much importance the FBI placed on Mafia cases in New York City. As a result of the Colombo family war in the early 90's, between the Carmine "The Snake" Persico and Vic Orena factions, over sixty cases were on the books- not to mention crackdown on the Genovese and Gambinos. Lance shows how the Colombo cases could have been compromised if the feds went ahead with the TWA 800 investigation. It's too complicated to summarize in this post, but it illustrates the importance that the Mafia held to the NY FBI- terror cases were down on the priority list.

I think Lance goes a little far in his distaste for Patrick Fitzgerald, but I admire his willignness to put it out on the line.

These books are essential reading.

[Ron Ecker]

Lance shows how the Colombo cases could have been compromised if the feds went ahead with the TWA 800 investigation.

Well this makes my blood boil and I didn't even know anyone on TWA Flight 800. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I were a family member. I don't know how I could tolerate being told that justice could not be sought in the Flight 800 bombing, we couldn't even be told who did it, because it might compromise cases against the Mafia, the same organization that has helped U.S. intelligence operatives assassinate or attempt to assassinate people including a U.S. president. Are we to believe that the CIA does no business with the Mafia today, as in the international drug trade etc.? But that's different, I guess. The CIA and the U.S. government are two entirely different things. So let's not go after terrorists because it could jeopardize government cases against the CIA's friends the Mafia. Let's wait and force the terrorists to do something really big like 9/11 so that the government simply can't ignore them any more.

If I can get this upset just reading about Lance's book, I don't know how I could possibly sit down and read the book itself. Actually I probably need to find something else to do than study this kind of stuff.

Excuse my rant. I just had to get it off my chest.

[Evan Burton]

I might have to see what he says on TWA 800, though it would have to be very convincing. The circumstances are very logical (heated fuel vapour in the centre tank, caused by the AC pack), matched known behaviour of a fuel vapour explosion, etc.

[William Kelly]

I might have to see what he says on TWA 800, though it would have to be very convincing. The circumstances are very logical (heated fuel vapour in the centre tank, caused by the AC pack), matched known behaviour of a fuel vapour explosion, etc.

Evan,

Peter Lance does NOT subscribe to the errant missile theory, but rather, has developed evidence that indicates that a Bojinka type bomb was placed on the plane, the type that uses materials that later led to the banning of all liquids being brought aboard planes.

The explosion occured while the Al Qaeda operative Yousef Ramzi was on trial in NYC for the first WTC bombing. While in prison, he developed a friendship with the son of a mafia Capo in the Columbo family, who turned states evidence. Among the notes passed from Yousef Ramzi to what he thought were his associates on the outside, were orders for a plane bombing, which would indicate to the jury, he thought, that if it occured while he was in jail he couldn't have done it.

The Bojinka plot dry run, had the parts of the bomb smuggled aboard the plane separately and the bomb assembled on board and placed under the seat next to the center fuel tank. It is not a suicide bombing becasue it would expode on the next flight. In the dry run, the bomb was placed two rows away from the tank, and only killed one person, but showed that it would work if the bomb was placed correctly.

When the Flight 800 parts were lifted from the ocean and reassembled in Long Island, the same type of explosive material was found in the seats next to the center fuel tank. But this evidence was discarded by the official investigators because they said that bomb sniffing dogs were brought on the plane and some of the bomb material was planted by the dog's handlers.

Lance however, interviewed the dog handler and determined that the dogs were aboard another, similar plane, parked next to Flight 800.

FBI agent John O'Neill led the investigation towards the center fuel tank explosion, set off by an electrical malfunction, with a CIA created computer program that showed the rational behind their explanation.

The proof of Lance's evidence is that no 747 before or since has had the same problem, and the planes weren't recalled for safety modifications to fix the alleged accidental problem.

The legal reasons behind the coverup is the details behind the cooperating mafia inmate would have led to the overturning of verdicts against a dozen other convicted mafia inmates, something that has happened anyway.

I saw Peter Lance on CSPAN last night and he makes a good, convincing presentation. He said that if you read his books, they will make you angry.

As Hal Verb said at one Dealey Plaza anniversary ceremony, like the biblical quote at CIA HQ, "Know the truth and the truth won't make you free, it will make you mad."

BK

[Ron Ecker]

Peter Lance does NOT subscribe to the errant missile theory, but rather, has developed evidence that indicates that a Bojinka type bomb was placed on the plane

What does Lance say about the hundreds of eyewitnesses who seem to have seen a missile hit the plane? Does he take the official line of either ignoring them or saying that they don't know what they're talking about?

[William Kelly]

Peter Lance does NOT subscribe to the errant missile theory, but rather, has developed evidence that indicates that a Bojinka type bomb was placed on the plane

What does Lance say about the hundreds of eyewitnesses who seem to have seen a missile hit the plane? Does he take the official line of either ignoring them or saying that they don't know what they're talking about?

Ron,

It has been determined that what the people on the ground saw was the ignited trails of fuel from the two filled tanks that appear to be the contrails of missiles.

Lance makes note of the fact that the US Navy did the bulk of the work in lifting the plane debres from the ocean floor and reassembling it, which they certainly wouldn't do if the evidence compiled indicated they shot the plane down with a missile.

I also agree with Peter in that we can not depend on government investigatons, especially the FBI.

BK

[Len Colby]

I guess this is the book to read on incompetence theory. I question how much Bin Laden was involved in 9/11, and why he at first denied any involvement and then (in a questionable video) "confessed" to it, i.e. talked about it with friends. I think that premature death (his own) may have brought about this sudden change in his claims.

OBL had a very obvious reason for denying participation in the attacks. The Taliban said they would turn him over if presented with conclusive evidence of his involvement.

[Len Colby]

In both instances his evaluation was superficial and based on little more than watching video tapes. Perhaps you can outline you evidence the collapse of 7 WTC was “so obviously a controlled demolition as to be almost comical” numerous fireman who were there disagree with you.

[Ron Ecker]

OBL had a very obvious reason for denying participation in the attacks. The Taliban said they would turn him over if presented with conclusive evidence of his involvement.

Well, the Taliban's word is good enough for me!