Where did Oswald's 11 unfired rounds come from ?

[Gil Jesus]

The Warren Commission was never able to determine where Oswald bought his .38 special ammunition. It claimed that he fired 4 and possibly 5 shots  at J.D. Tippit and when he was arrested there were 6 unfired cartridges in the revolver and another 5 unfired cartridges were later found in his pants pocket at about 4pm.

There may have been a reason why they could find anyone who had sold Oswald the ammunition: he never owned any.

So where did the 11 unfired rounds attributed to him come from ?

At 3: 30 pm, 11 unfired rounds were turned in to the police station. They had been recovered from the possessions of Officer J.D. Tippit.

 

The "3 live .38 rounds" mentioned in this report was wrong as the below report shows. The "3" is crossed out. There were 11 recovered from Tippit's possessions.

When there is a discrepancy, sworn testimony always trumps written reports. Testimony given under oath and under the penalty of perjury is always more credible. In that regard, Sgt. Hill never turned the weapon or the cartridges over to Lt. Baker at 3:15 pm. When under oath, Hill testified that at "approximately 4pm", he marked the six shells "from the revolver" in Westbrook's office.

They brought Oswald into the police station around 2:15 pm. If the cartridges had truly come from the revolver, there was no reason to wait an hour or more to unload the weapon and mark them. Marking them should have been the first thing Hill did when he unloaded the weapon. That is, of course, if the weapon wasn't empty. If they tried to plant an empty revolver on Oswald at the Texas Theater, they would have needed cartridges after the arrest to make it look like the weapon was loaded all along. If they didn't have those readily available, they would have needed to wait until they got some.

Hence, the Tippit cartridges.

Also, Hill's marking of the cartridges was around the same time Det. Boyd "found" the remaining five unfired rounds in Oswald's pants pocket on the way to the 4:05 line up. This "discovery" was made after Oswald had been thoroughly searched twice by Det. Bentley and again by Off. Walker.

 

 

Again, the marking of the six rounds and the "discovery of another five rounds in Oswald's pocket" was 30 minutes after the 11 unfired rounds recovered from Tippit were in the building.

Could those 11 Tippit cartridges have been the source of the 11 cartridges attributed to Oswald ?

The number and type of cartridges is right. The timing is right.

And there is a problem with officers who handled the evidence never being called to testify.

The fact that Bentley, Doughty, Davenport, Bardin and Baker were never called to testify regarding the search, the number and the possession of the unfired rounds leaves wide open the door that the evidence was planted by the Dallas Police.

Five officers who handled evidence who were never called.

One is an oversight, not five.

But there's more to indicate a police source to these cartridges.

The corrosion of the casing on the cartridges indicates that they had been in a gunbelt or a bullet slide for a long time.

 

 

Having had the experience with these things, I've always suspected that the source of these cartridges was a police source.

Then there's the question of how Oswald, who had little experience with handguns, would have known that the .38 revolver he ordered had been rechambered and could only fire .38 special ammunition.

I know this will cause those on the "Oswald-did-it" side some angst, but one thing I'm sure of, the evidence indicates that:

The six unfired rounds that were "in the revolver" and five that were "found" in Oswald's pants pocket were the same 11 cartridges that came from the personal effects recovered from J.D. Tippit.

Of that I have no doubt. Too many coincidences and too many witnesses ignored.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Sean Coleman]

Good, logical research, as usual…with a paper trail!

Were all 11 bullets the same brand, were they all corroded and are there pics of the other 6? 

[James DiEugenio]

When Jerry Hill was working for CBS in 1967--swish that around in your mouth awhile--he said they did a fast frisk on Oswald at the theater.

No projectiles.

The DPD was disgusting.

[Tom Gram]

Are you sure that the number crossed out on Bardin's 3:25 CSS form is a 3? It kind of looks like a 5 to me, which makes sense if Bardin initially forgot to count the shells in Tippit's gun:

 

I ask because Davenport filled out a CSS sheet that reflects him turning over the V510210 revolver and shells to Barnes and Doughty at 3:30, and the number of shells on this sheet looks to be a slanted 2 written on top of a 3. Either way, it sure as hell isn't a 6:

 

 

This corroborates Davenport's police report, but it contradicts the official "chain of custody" of the revolver, and of course there are missing shells. Hill and Bentley claimed that the revolver was turned over to T.L. Baker. Westbrook testified that he told Fritz the officers had the revolver in his office and Fritz sent someone down to pick it up. I highly doubt that both Bentley and Hill would mix up a traffic cop with the top Homicide lieutenant, so let's give the benefit of the doubt and say that Baker grabbed the gun then gave it to Davenport to submit as evidence per Fritz's request. (This still doesn't explain why Bentley initialed the gun at all, or why he was the only person to corroborate Hill's tale of giving the gun to Baker, but we'll go with it.) 

Something still doesn't add up. If we have 11 shells entered into evidence at 3:25 by Bardin, then 2 (or 3) more entered in five minutes later by Davenport, where the hell do the rest come from? If the shells from Tippit's gun made it into an empty revolver, what the hell happened to the shells turned in by Davenport? 

I think you are likely right about the five shells supposedly recovered from Oswald's pocket, but I feel like there is more going on here. Basically, my question is this: what is your opinion on the Davenport 3:30 CSS sheet and the 2/3 shells that were supposedly turned over to Barnes and Doughty? 

[David Von Pein]

Reality Break! .....

Can somebody please logically tell me WHY on this Earth the Dallas Police Department would have even wanted  to "plant" five unfired bullets into the record of the Tippit murder case? They already had the six unfired bullets in Oswald's gun itself. What possible reason would anyone at DPD have had for planting 5 more bullets on Oswald?

It's silly beyond belief.

Edited July 23, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

21 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Good, logical research, as usual…with a paper trail!

Were all 11 bullets the same brand, were they all corroded and are there pics of the other 6? 

I'm glad you asked.

During his testimony ( 7 H 55-56 ), Sgt. Hill described five of the six shells as part of his identification of them as the cartridges he unloaded. His description was that bullets marked Q-78, Q-79 and Q-177 were all Winchester-Westerns, while the ones marked Q-80 and Q-81 were Remington Peters. There was one more cartridge, Q-178 in which he did not describe the manufacturer.

That's 3 Winchester-Westerns, 2 Remington-Peters and the sixth is unknown.

Elmer Boyd never described the manufacturer of the five cartridges he allegedly found, only to testify that he found them in Oswald's pants pocket. ( 7 H 126 )

Regarding your second question, yes the six allegedly unloaded by Hill bore the same corrosion on the casing part of the cartridge as the five "found" by Boyd. Even in the Commission's black-and-white photos, the corrosion is detectable ( lighter grey ) 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

10 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Are you sure that the number crossed out on Bardin's 3:25 CSS form is a 3? It kind of looks like a 5 to me, which makes sense if Bardin initially forgot to count the shells in Tippit's gun:

 

I ask because Davenport filled out a CSS sheet that reflects him turning over the V510210 revolver and shells to Barnes and Doughty at 3:30, and the number of shells on this sheet looks to be a slanted 2 written on top of a 3. Either way, it sure as hell isn't a 6:

 

 

This corroborates Davenport's police report, but it contradicts the official "chain of custody" of the revolver, and of course there are missing shells. Hill and Bentley claimed that the revolver was turned over to T.L. Baker. Westbrook testified that he told Fritz the officers had the revolver in his office and Fritz sent someone down to pick it up. I highly doubt that both Bentley and Hill would mix up a traffic cop with the top Homicide lieutenant, so let's give the benefit of the doubt and say that Baker grabbed the gun then gave it to Davenport to submit as evidence per Fritz's request. (This still doesn't explain why Bentley initialed the gun at all, or why he was the only person to corroborate Hill's tale of giving the gun to Baker, but we'll go with it.) 

Something still doesn't add up. If we have 11 shells entered into evidence at 3:25 by Bardin, then 2 (or 3) more entered in five minutes later by Davenport, where the hell do the rest come from? If the shells from Tippit's gun made it into an empty revolver, what the hell happened to the shells turned in by Davenport? 

I think you are likely right about the five shells supposedly recovered from Oswald's pocket, but I feel like there is more going on here. Basically, my question is this: what is your opinion on the Davenport 3:30 CSS sheet and the 2/3 shells that were supposedly turned over to Barnes and Doughty? 

Tom, I can't explain it other than that it's possible that Davenport and Bardin both had cartridges recovered from Tippit and each made out separate reports. My guess is that Bardin possessed 11, while Davenport the other, 3. Although they weren't evidence in the case, I find it impossible, as you do to accept that any law officer would walk around with only 2 or 3 cartridges. 

Well, maybe Barney Fife, but that's about it.

What I find interesting about the Davenport report is that those 3 cartridges were released to FBI agent Vincent Drain at 11:45 pm on 11/22/63 by Doughty. That's Drain's name on the bottom of the sheet and Doughty's initials.

If these 3 cartridges were part of Tippit's possessions and had nothing to do with his murder, why would they send them to Washington ?

We may never know because neither Doughty nor Drain were ever called to give testimony.

Just another one of those "coincidences".

Edited July 23, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Tom, I can't explain it other than that it's possible that Davenport and Bardin both had cartridges recovered from Tippit and each made out separate reports. My guess is that Bardin possessed 11, while Davenport the other, 3. Although they weren't evidence in the case, I find it impossible, as you do to accept that any law officer would walk around with only 2 or 3 cartridges. 

Well, maybe Barney Fife, but that's about it.

What I find interesting about the Davenport report is that those 3 cartridges were released to FBI agent Vincent Drain at 11:45 pm on 11/22/63 by Doughty. That's Drain's name on the bottom of the sheet and Doughty's initials.

If these 3 cartridges were part of Tippit's possessions and had nothing to do with his murder, why would they send them to Washington ?

We may never know because neither Doughty nor Drain were ever called to give testimony.

Just another one of those "coincidences".

I had a thought. Since the number on Davenport’s sheet sure looks to have been corrected from 3 to 2, and the implication of his police report is that the 3 shells to be turned over to Doughty were from Oswald’s gun, I wonder if there’s a correlation here with the shell casings recovered at the Tippit scene, and information coming in that an additional shell had been obtained from Virginia Davis. 

If someone eventually realized that it was necessary to make it appear as if Oswald had actually reloaded the gun and not just idiotically dumped his shell casings at a murder scene, right there’s a motive for “updating” the number of rounds found in the gun to 6 (which sure as hell appears to be what happened) and planting shells in Oswald’s pocket.

I’d have to do a chronology to see if this theory makes any sense, but it’s more than a little suspicious IMO that the number of recovered shells from Oswald’s alleged gun gets updated from 3 to 2 to 6. 

[Gil Jesus]

15 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Reality Break! .....

Can somebody please logically tell me WHY on this Earth the Dallas Police Department would have even wanted  to "plant" five unfired bullets into the record of the Tippit murder case? They already had the six unfired bullets in Oswald's gun itself. What possible reason would anyone at DPD have had for planting 5 more bullets on Oswald?

It's silly beyond belief.

Of course it is. Everything that questions authority is silly to you. You can be shown evidence after evidence that something was amiss and all you can do is mock it. That's your style. You against all the "kooks" in the world. I suppose supporting the biggest coverup in the nation's history is no small task. Keep those volumes by Posner, Bugliosi and Myers by your bedside.

The world needs to know you're winning. Post all the "arguments" you "win" on your blog. We can all sleep well knowing we have you to steady the ship.

I would appreciate it if you are going to engage me in a debate of the evidence, that you do so by posting evidence, i.e. testimony, documents or exhibits. Your opinions and commentaries mean nothing in the realm of evidence. If you can't quote the evidence, consider yourself on IGNORE because I don't have time to waste on your constant circular reasoning, jumping to conclusions and appeals to "common sense".

For example, who said they planted the five bullets on Oswald ?

Who said that the bullets were even in his pocket ? The Dallas Police did. I didn't.

As usual, you don't get it.

They had an empty revolver that McDonald tried to plant on Oswald. Theater patron George Applin expressed that in an interview with Earl Golz.

 

 

They had 11 unfired rounds from Tippit. They took six of those and claimed those were the bullets in the revolver. They weren't.

They had five left over and claimed they found them in the pants pocket of Oswald. They didn't.

You think that's silly ? Then prove me wrong.

Produce the 11 unfired .38 rounds they got from Tippit.

[David Von Pein]

Gil,

My question --- Why would the cops want to add 5 superfluous unfired bullets to the evidence mix? --- is a perfectly reasonable and logical question to ask. In fact, IMO, it must  be asked. But CTers never ask it. We can only wonder why that is.

Edited July 23, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Gil,

My question --- Why would the cops want to add 5 superfluous unfired bullets to the evidence mix? --- is a perfectly reasonable and logical question to ask. In fact, IMO, it must  be asked. But CTers never ask it. We can only wonder why that is.

See my last comment in this thread. I don’t know if it’s correct, and would have to dig into it a lot more, but it is one plausible motive for why those shells might have been planted. If the goal was to create the illusion that Oswald reloaded his gun and ditched the shell casings at the scene, it would be pretty weird if he was only carrying three (no wait, four  ) extra rounds with him, hence the pocket bullets.   

[Gil Jesus]

16 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

If the goal was to create the illusion that Oswald reloaded his gun and ditched the shell casings at the scene, it would be pretty weird if he was only carrying three (no wait, four  ) extra rounds with him, hence the pocket bullets.   

Exactly. Six rounds in the gun was what you'd expect if he reloaded it. But having only six rounds in the gun left open the question of whether or not police had used a "throw away", a common practice to frame someone back then. So to cover their asses, the five additional rounds were "found" ON HIS PERSON during a search and by saying so, police hid the fact that the weapon was a "throw away". 

With unfired rounds "in his pocket", Oswald was connected to the ammunition and thus the revolver.

These Dallas cops knew what they were doing. They had experience framing people for crimes they did not commit. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna25917791

Edited July 24, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Denny Zartman]

It seems like a strong case could be made that the handgun was planted. As someone pointed out in another thread, if Oswald had actually tried to pull the trigger on one of the cops arresting him in the theater, he would/should have been charged with that as soon as he got to the police station. Especially if they did have either a dented primer or a cop who could testify that they stopped the hammer of the gun.

The corroded shells also seem to indicate that they were in gunbelt loops for some time.

Gil, do you have an opinion on when the backyard photos were taken or made?

[Tom Gram]

9 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It seems like a strong case could be made that the handgun was planted. As someone pointed out in another thread, if Oswald had actually tried to pull the trigger on one of the cops arresting him in the theater, he would/should have been charged with that as soon as he got to the police station. Especially if they did have either a dented primer or a cop who could testify that they stopped the hammer of the gun.

The corroded shells also seem to indicate that they were in gunbelt loops for some time.

Gil, do you have an opinion on when the backyard photos were taken or made?

I think that was me who said that Oswald should have been charged with attempted murder. There is literally zero evidence that Oswald attempted to pull the trigger. The misfire/dented primer story is such BS that even the Warren Commission debunked it. 

McDonald’s story of getting his hand stuck between the hammer and cylinder was originally told and claimed by Paul Bentley on Nov. 23. Bentley even told reporters that he got a bruised hand from it (CE 2157). However, Bentley somehow forgot to mention his epic heroics and hand injury in his actual police report…

Another important point is that McDonald did not testify that he stopped the hammer with his hand:

Mr. McDONALD - It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a snap. I didn't know what it was at the time. 

McDonald eventually adopted Bentley’s story as his own, but neither his police report nor his testimony says anything about him blocking the hammer with his hand. I think the first time McDonald told that fairy tale was to CBS. 

Also, the hand in the hammer story is totally incompatible with the WC explanation for the alleged “click”, which has the gun getting yanked out of Oswald’s hand as he pulled the trigger. In that scenario, the rebound slide would have snapped the trigger and hammer back into safe position, and the hammer would not have pinched anyone’s hand.

It is important to point out that McDonald’s police report actually does corroborate the WC click scenario:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340009/m1/1/

However, as Gil showed in a previous post, there is a mountain of contradictory evidence; and pretty much every witness, including McDonald himself, testified that the click was heard during the struggle while the gun was still in Oswald’s hand. 

Even if the WC scenario is correct, the snap could just as easily have happened from McDonald accidentally depressing the hammer: 

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. You would not get any denting if the cylinder was held and the gun was jerked forcibly out of Oswald's hands. You would hear the snap, but you would get no mark on the primer whatsoever. 
The same thing he could hear if he jerked it out of his hands and he accidentally, somehow, hit the hammer-- you would still get a noise, a snapping sound. But the firing pin would not come in contact with the primer of the cartridge. 

So yea, there is ZERO evidence that Oswald attempted to pull the trigger. None of this is evidence for a planted gun, but it does reflect that the arresting officers were not above exaggerating a few details to make Oswald look like a violent cop killer.

[Gil Jesus]

20 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

It seems like a strong case could be made that the handgun was planted. As someone pointed out in another thread, if Oswald had actually tried to pull the trigger on one of the cops arresting him in the theater, he would/should have been charged with that as soon as he got to the police station. Especially if they did have either a dented primer or a cop who could testify that they stopped the hammer of the gun.

The corroded shells also seem to indicate that they were in gunbelt loops for some time.

Gil, do you have an opinion on when the backyard photos were taken or made?

No, not really. The Commission knew it had a problem with the backyard photographs in as much as Marina testified that she took the pictures on a Sunday around noon and there were only three Sundays ( March 24th, March 31st and April 7th ) between the dates the weapons were shipped ( March 20 ) and the attempt on Gen. Walker ( April 10 ). Her testimony that it was a couple of weeks before the Walker attempt seems to eliminate April 7th and the fact that March 24th was a cloudy day seems to eliminate that date as well.

You don't get shadows on cloudy days.

On the surface, March 31st seems to be plausible. Any condition less than "cloudy" for that day seems IMO to support the probablility that the sun may have come out.

The problem in zeroing in on the date of the photographs is that there is no documentation identifying the dates Oswald allegedly picked up his rifle and handgun. Was it before March 24th or after ? The importance of the answer is the difference between whether or not we can definitely eliminate March 24th as a possibility for the photos.

This is why in a criminal investigation it's imperative that you cross all the "t"s and dot all the "i"s. One piece of evidence, or lack thereof, can effect other areas of the investigation.

A word about circular reasoning being used by the Lone Nut side:

In a normal argument, the evidence proves the premise and the premise proves the conclusion. In this example, the documentation from REA Express would prove Oswald gained possession of the weapon ( premise ) and it was the same weapon that the Dallas Police disarmed him with in the Texas Theater ( conclusion ).

Circular reasoning, however, is where you take the conclusion, accept it as truth, then use it as a basis to prove a premise for which there is no evidence. For example, circular reasoning says that because the police took the handgun away from Oswald in the theater, then that's proof that he picked it up at the REA Express office.

That's nonsense and it's flawed reasoning that has been used for years on the LN side in their "arguments".

The only evidence that Oswald ever received these weapons would be documentation from the Post Office and the REA Express Office. That's it. Produce the documentation and you prove the premise. 

Anything else is just commentary.

A conclusion cannot be true unless the premise is first proven.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Gil Jesus