No one asks this question of Paine or Marina

[Cory Santos]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

How about this one?

Mrs. PAINE - He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.
Mr. JENNER - Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs. PAINE - For herself, flat s. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
Mr. JENNER - That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - She and I did; yes.

 

Ruth does not say why they did not go or where they planned to go.

She does say in "the afternoon".  Looks to me like the police turning up put an end to it. 

BTW, was this why Lee was looking in the shoe store window?

 

 

Wait, so ignore the parade but go to the dentist and then an afternoon of shoe shopping?  
 

Ok I will add a new question.  Did they expect LHO to return Friday evening to spend the weekend with them?   What were the weekend plans?   Dinner at a local Italian restaurant?

[Karl Hilliard]

22 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

 Ok I will add a new question.  Did they expect LHO to return Friday evening to spend the weekend with them?   What were the weekend plans?

 

A very good and far more important question. 

Ms Paine was just resigned to listening to the TV reports.

Quote

Mr. JENNER - How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you and Marina--
Mrs. PAINE - This was not shown on television.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, it wasn't?
Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to for dinner, and for his talk.
Mr. JENNER - And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?
Mrs. PAINE - The motorcade was being described.
Mr. JENNER - Were you and Marina listening to that?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown.
Mr. JENNER - Were you listening?
Mrs. PAINE - We were.
Mr. JENNER - Did she show an interest in this?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, yes.

Obviously, Oswald did not check with Wes Frazier [his usual ride to Irving] before departing work. The concept that Oswald went on the run is based on pure speculation. I have long suspected that Lee may have directly or indirectly been involved with some kind of unknown clandestine activity.

Quote

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that he might have asked her to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be making a gesture toward the re-establishing of their family life when at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no. indication to her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I have since heard this by rumor.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Karl Hilliard

[David Von Pein]

........

Edited July 25, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Denis Morissette said:

Quote

David, yes the building is facing Stemmons. The photo was taken by McIntire. That photo is no longer at the Dallas Library after Groden’s visit. Groden published it. I enhanced it.

One minute later, Denis Morissette added:

Quote

Ah ok. I think there is a word above « book » as you said.

13 minutes later, Denis Morissette added:

Quote

Best I can do. You can ask Groden since he had the original. Looking at your screen from a distance may help. Warehouse makes sense!

2½ hours later, Denis Morissette said:

Quote

McIntire photo. Oh yeah. Warehouse, no doubt!

https://ibb.co/B2XvKd7

DVP now says:

Oh yes! Definitely! The word "Warehouse" is plainly visible above the word "book".

Thanks so much for digging up that rarely-seen photo, Denis!

So now we know that Ruth Paine, in her testimony, was positively referring to the TSBD building located at 1917 North Houston Street (see Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony at 3 H 237 for verification of that address).

I officially now stand corrected in my previous assumption and speculation that Ruth saw the "TSBD" title on the Elm Street building. Because the photo below supplied by Denis Morissette clearly shows that on the front of the Houston Street building, facing Stemmons Freeway, are the words "Warehouse -- Texas School Book Depository":

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Denis Morissette said:

One minute later, Denis Morissette added:

13 minutes later, Denis Morissette added:

2½ hours later, Denis Morissette said:

DVP now says:

Oh yes! Definitely! The word "Warehouse" is plainly visible above the word "book".

Thanks so much for digging up that rarely-seen photo, Denis!

So now we know that Ruth Paine, in her testimony, was positively referring to the TSBD building located at 1917 North Houston Street (see Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony at 3 H 237 for verification of that address).

I officially now stand corrected in my previous assumption and speculation that Ruth saw the "TSBD" title on the Elm Street building. Because the photo below supplied by Denis Morissette clearly shows that on the front of the Houston Street building, facing Stemmons Freeway, are the words "Warehouse -- Texas School Book Depository":

 

But we do still have two, possibly three times that she saw the phone book which I have proven showed an elm street address.  Overall I think this is interesting.  

[David Von Pein]

50 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

But we do still have two, possibly three times that she [Ruth Paine] saw the phone book which I have proven showed an Elm Street address. Overall, I think this is interesting.  

But keep in mind that the Depository warehouse building on Houston Street that Ruth saw while driving on Stemmons was located very near Elm Street. It was only---what?---two blocks north on Houston. So the two TSBD buildings were, indeed, very close to one another.

Given that fact, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for someone casually driving on Stemmons to think that the "warehouse" building on Houston was located on Elm (or vice versa). Was Ruth supposed to keep track of all Dallas streets at all times and where things were located on those streets? Why would she have cared what street that warehouse she saw was on? And why would she have needed to commit such knowledge to memory? It didn't make any difference to her what street that TSBD warehouse was located on.*

* The CTers who think that Ruth Paine was involved in a scheme to plant LHO in the TSBD on Elm Street must think otherwise, of course. But I'm not wired with "Conspiracy" circuitry. So it's my view that the "Elm Street" address that Ruth did, indeed, write down in her address book (and see in the phone book) meant very little to her at all. And therefore there was no reason for her to concentrate on that address at all after jotting it down in her address book or seeing it in print in the telephone book. And, in fact, she pretty much told us that very thing in this WC testimony:

"I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't."

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

But keep in mind that the Depository warehouse building on Houston Street that Ruth saw while driving on Stemmons was located very near Elm Street. It was only---what?---two blocks north on Houston. So the two TSBD buildings were, indeed, very close to one another.

Given that fact, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for someone casually driving on Stemmons to think that the "warehouse" building on Houston was located on Elm (or vice versa). Was Ruth supposed to keep track of all Dallas streets at all times and where things were located on those streets? Why would she have cared what street that warehouse she saw was on? And why would she have needed to commit such knowledge to memory? It didn't make any difference to her what street that TSBD warehouse was located on.*

* The CTers who think that Ruth Paine was involved in a scheme to plant LHO in the TSBD on Elm Street must think otherwise, of course. But I'm not wired with "Conspiracy" circuitry. So it's my view that the "Elm Street" address that Ruth did, indeed, write down in her address book (and see in the phone book) meant very little to her at all. And therefore there was no reason for her to concentrate on that address at all after jotting it down in her address book or seeing it in print in the telephone book. And, in fact, she pretty much told us that very thing in this WC testimony:

"I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't."

 

Ok so assuming on the day of the assassination she thought LHO worked at the other building, if one follows wc logic she also did not know LHO owned a rifle, she did not know a rifle had been stored in the open in her garage and she did not know that It was missing from the garage on 11-22-63.   She also had a dentist appointment and shoe shopping to do instead of seeing the motorcade.   At some point this is odd.  

[David Von Pein]

43 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

Ok so assuming on the day of the assassination she thought LHO worked at the other building, if one follows wc logic she also did not know LHO owned a rifle, she did not know a rifle had been stored in the open in her garage and she did not know that It was missing from the garage on 11-22-63.   She also had a dentist appointment and shoe shopping to do instead of seeing the motorcade.   At some point this is odd.  

I see nothing "odd" about anything you just said. And I certainly don't find it altogether impossible....or even improbable. In fact, everything you just mentioned is true. (IMO.)

Edited July 26, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Cory Santos]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I see nothing "odd" about anything you just said. And I certainly don't find it altogether impossible....or even improbable. In fact, everything you just mentioned is true. (IMO.)

Ok then. So the question to look at is there were limited stations at that time.  She clearly stated she heard of the shooting from the building before it was announced JFK was dead.  So we know she heard of the shooting from the depository before at least 1 but maybe give a few minutes.  She seems to say it was between an hour from when he was shot and it was announced on tv to when he was declared dead.   What time on tv was the declaration?  
DVP in your collection of tapes when did the tv start reporting that someone shot JFK from the book depository.  It’s odd that some witnesses were saying it was on the knoll yet she never mentions that.  Seems odd she skips telling Marina that point and goes straight to the book depository.  Was the depository the shooter location over the tv prior to 1?

She stated:   announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.
I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, “Is that a way of praying?“, and I said “Yes, it is, just my own way.” And it was well over an hour before we heard dellnitely that the President was dead.
Mrs. PAINE. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Cory Santos

[David Von Pein]

On 7/26/2022 at 4:02 AM, Cory Santos said:

She [Ruth Paine] clearly stated she heard of the shooting from the building before it was announced JFK was dead.  So we know she heard of the shooting from the depository before at least 1 but maybe give a few minutes.  She seems to say it was between an hour from when he was shot and it was announced on tv to when he was declared dead.  What time on tv was the declaration?

The JFK death announcement came at 1:38 PM CST on CBS-TV and within a minute or two of that on all the other TV networks.

On 7/26/2022 at 4:02 AM, Cory Santos said:

DVP, in your collection of tapes when did the tv start reporting that someone shot JFK from the book depository?

[...]

Was the depository the shooter location over the tv prior to 1?

Of course we don't know what TV channel/network Marina & Ruth were watching, but if they were watching Channel 4 in Dallas (KRLD-TV / CBS affiliate), they would have heard Eddie Barker tell them at approx. 1:20 PM CST that the shooter "shot from a window in a building that I can best describe as being a factory loft that houses school books". (See video below at the 22:55 mark.) The word "Depository" I don't think was mentioned by Barker during the half-hour video presented below. [EDIT---Boy, was I dead wrong about this. See the next two posts by Karl Hilliard and myself.]

I can't recall if the "Book Depository" was mentioned by name prior to the JFK death announcement at approx. 1:38 to 1:40 PM on any of the other TV networks either. But feel free to check those videos at my YouTube channel if you so desire. But keep in mind that the only LOCAL (Dallas) TV coverage I have is the 30 minutes of KRLD-TV coverage at the video embedded below and the WFAA-TV coverage (and the TSBD is certainly mentioned fairly early on in the WFAA coverage). AFAIK, nobody alive has the WBAP-TV (Ch.5) coverage or the KTVT-TV coverage either.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DavidVonPeinJFK/playlists

 

Edited March 19 by David Von Pein

[Karl Hilliard]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

    The word "Depository" I don't think was mentioned by Barker during the half-hour video presented below. I can't recall if the "Book Depository" was mentioned by name prior to the JFK death announcement at approx. 

 

About after 11:13 and 19:30 he does say 'book depository'. Thanks for the video and all the compiled work.

Also at 17:50 in the video another reporter mentions...'book depository'. All in all I think this is quite interesting. Who was the source of the info? More than three times there was a mention of a killed Secret Service.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Karl Hilliard

[David Von Pein]

8 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

About after 11:13 and 19:30 he does say 'book depository'. Thanks for the video and all the compiled work.

Thanks, Karl. Good catches there. (Heck, I've only watched my KRLD-TV Trade Mart video about 75 times in the past. So I should have found those "Book Depository" mentions earlier---just from memory---but I didn't. So thanks to Karl Hilliard for pointing them out with the approximate timestamps.)

Now, FWIW, this would mean that the words "Book Depository" were being uttered on public TV station KRLD-TV in Dallas at approx. 1:06 PM CST (because the above video starts at 12:55 PM CST).

Edited July 27, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

8 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

More than three times there was a mention of a killed Secret Service [agent].

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/The False Rumor About A Secret Service Agent Being Killed On 11/22/63

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Thanks, Karl. Good catches there. (Heck, I've only watched my KRLD-TV Trade Mart video about 75 times in the past. So I should have found those "Book Depository" mentions earlier---just from memory---but I didn't. So thanks to Karl Hilliard for pointing them out with the approximate timestamps.)

Now, FWIW, this would mean that the words "Book Depository" were being uttered on public TV station KRLD-TV in Dallas at approx. 1:06 PM CST (because the above video starts at 12:55 PM CST).

Book depository on elm?   Remember if you accept her testimony she thought it was elsewhere.  

[Allen Lowe]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:09 PM, David Von Pein said:

Denis Morissette said:

One minute later, Denis Morissette added:

13 minutes later, Denis Morissette added:

2½ hours later, Denis Morissette said:

DVP now says:

Oh yes! Definitely! The word "Warehouse" is plainly visible above the word "book".

Thanks so much for digging up that rarely-seen photo, Denis!

So now we know that Ruth Paine, in her testimony, was positively referring to the TSBD building located at 1917 North Houston Street (see Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony at 3 H 237 for verification of that address).

I officially now stand corrected in my previous assumption and speculation that Ruth saw the "TSBD" title on the Elm Street building. Because the photo below supplied by Denis Morissette clearly shows that on the front of the Houston Street building, facing Stemmons Freeway, are the words "Warehouse -- Texas School Book Depository":

 

It’s a good thing you’re not a lawyer; none of this proves your very desperate guess that she was thinking of a different building. I have to say, David, that time is wearing down your arguments, which get stranger and stranger. First  you guess that something might’ve happened, and after a respectable period of time passes you change that into something that did happen, with even less information, figuring that people will forget the original ghost of an argument. So goes the entire lone nut brigade. As a relative outsider here, it’s somewhat fascinating for me to watch the deterioration of all the old, sad, lone nut theories.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Allen Lowe