Southwestern Publishing Doors Locked, Someone Inside. With View of Elm Street.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Could be. I can't really tell.

Here's the 2nd-floor diagram again. It might help when comparing it to the photo. I noticed that the caption of the original FBI photo in CD496 (below) says the photo is "looking east"....

 

 

DVP--

 

Yes, re Gram, it appears photo is not of the Southwestern Publishing offices office. 

The diagram indicates picture 28 is of the central TSBD office, that is the Hine office. No?

(Cue mysterious music): And the Southwestern Publishing offices were not photographed.....

[Mark Knight]

Ben, I agree that, while Hughes may not have done anything wrong, the investigation -- and we're talking about the shooting of the President of the United States here -- was much less than thorough.

I understand that's your point. Hughes may have been as pure as the driven snow, but because the investigation was less than thorough, we cannot be 100% certain. And you would think that when the victim of the crime was the POTUS, that no nook or cranny should have been overlooked and no stone left unturned. Unfortunately, that simply didn't happen.

[Benjamin Cole]

12 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

Ben, I agree that, while Hughes may not have done anything wrong, the investigation -- and we're talking about the shooting of the President of the United States here -- was much less than thorough.

I understand that's your point. Hughes may have been as pure as the driven snow, but because the investigation was less than thorough, we cannot be 100% certain. And you would think that when the victim of the crime was the POTUS, that no nook or cranny should have been overlooked and no stone left unturned. Unfortunately, that simply didn't happen.

Thanks MK for reading and your comments. 

I actually am more jaundiced on this issue than you.

From my perspective, the WC was a prosecutorial body, the purpose of which was to find LHO the lone assassin, the leftie, loner, loser. 

The WC and FBI did not conduct an investigation, but rather a prosecution, and the lawyers, including Ball and Specter did their jobs. 

So...obvious leads were not followed up, and, of course, the CIA stonewalled everything. The Carol Hughes lead is just one of dozens of examples....

Specter worked backwards at all times. Presuming (as a rock-solid foundation) LHO was the lone assassin, then how could the JFKA be carried out? So, the SBT was born...and so on....

 

[David Von Pein]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but isn’t that photograph, labeled 28, the photograph taken from camera angle 28 in the diagram, which is in room 200 pointing east towards Campbell’s office (door at end of photo) - so not in SW Publishing Co.? 

Yes, Tom, you're correct. According to CD796, that is not the SW Publishing office, it's the open office space north of SWP.

The reason I said it was South-Western's office is merely because Karen Westbrook herself identified that picture as being a photo of her office during her 2017 interview with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum. Westbrook said this when she was shown that photo during the interview:

"This is my office; I remember it well."

So, either Karen was mistaken or the FBI labeled it incorrectly in their picture for CD796. My opinion is that Karen Westbrook (after 54 years) was simply not remembering exactly what her TSBD office looked like, even though she did say she remembered it well.

The main reason I think Karen is mistaken and the FBI's floor plan has it right is because of the long vertical column that extends all the way to the ceiling in the "No. 28" FBI photo. That is probably the "Dumbwaiter", which is labeled as such in the second-floor diagram. It's in the right location at any rate.

The floor plan says the Dumbwaiter goes only to the "1st floor", which I guess means it doesn't extend through the ceiling of the 2nd-floor offices to go to the 3rd floor. But that wouldn't necessarily mean it wouldn't go from floor to ceiling right there on the second floor, right? It just doesn't extend through the ceiling to the floor above.

It's not really all that important, but a puzzle like this to solve every now and then is always kind of entertaining. ....

Edited November 5, 2022 by David Von Pein

[George Govus]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

SW Publishing was not a streetside retail operation.

True that. My only minor point, for which I used too few words, as usual, was that, as others suggested, the company might have had a policy that the door is locked at lunch time, due to being short staffed, there's a safe in the office, etc. An "office manager" on duty might have had instruction, permission to lock the door during that time. Of course, this supposition is undercut somewhat if the other publishing companies *didn't* lock their doors at lunch.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, George Govus said:

True that. My only minor point, for which I used too few words, as usual, was that, as others suggested, the company might have had a policy that the door is locked at lunch time, due to being short staffed, there's a safe in the office, etc. An "office manager" on duty might have had instruction, permission to lock the door during that time. Of course, this supposition is undercut somewhat if the other publishing companies *didn't* lock their doors at lunch.

Yes, and an adjacent publisher's office was locked at lunch, though with no one inside---although that raises an interesting question. 

If shots heard on 11/22 on the second floor of TSBD were like "cannon shots"...maybe the second-floor publisher's offices were the source of shooting. 

Too bad there is no way to tell if the shots that day were in fact louder on the second floor.....

[Benjamin Cole]

Not to belabor a point, but....

Here, in part, is the WC testimony of James Jarman, who was on the fifth floor during the JFKA, and had extensive military service in the US Army:

Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President’s car.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left.

Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window?

Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed.

Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?

Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches.

Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn’t have any doubt in my mind then. 

---30---

OK, so Jarman, who served two four-year hitches in the Army, thought the JFKA shots had come from below him. 

Recall, Geneva Hine, on the second floor, had said the JFKA gunshots were so loud they sounded like a "cannon." 

Well, hardly conclusive, and many many witnesses thought the shots had come from the GK. But Hine described the shots as louder than other witnesses. 

(In fact Jarman reported to the WC seeing many officers and others converging on the railroad track area which is just behind the GK, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA.)

The acoustics of Dealey Plaza and the TSBD must be bedeviled, as so many apparently earnest witnesses point in wildly different directions when asked about the gunshots. 

But to reiterate---

1. On Nov. 22 Southwestern Publishing office worker Carol Hughes said she sat in her second-floor office window as JFK went by, and she had a bird's eye view of the motorcade. Hughes says she witnessed the assassination. 

2. Three shots as loud as a "cannon" are heard inside the TSBD on the second floor by Geneva Hine, a regular second-floor veteran worker of the TSBD. 

Hines description is louder than other people say the shots were on other TSBD floors, possibly indicating proximity. 

3.  Hine told the WC she wanted to gain access to the Southwestern Publishing offices  "because those windows face out" onto Elm and "on to the triple underpass."

4. An unidentified woman, probably Hughes, is seen in the Southwestern Publisher's office in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA by Hine, but Hughes refuses to open the locked door.  Hughes is seen through a translucent curtain, her outline. Hughes is heard by Hine talking, and thought to be talking on the talking on the phone. There may be others in the office unseen, of course. 

Yes--this is the same office into which two cartons of rifles arrived on Nov. 20,  carried in by asst. SW publishing co. manager Warren Caster. Caster says he took the rifles home that night---still inside the cartons. So no one saw the rifles leave. 

5. In the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, Hine calls to Hughes several times and "shakes" her office door (assumably by the doorknob), which Hine testified was locked. But Hughes did not respond. 

OK, so presumably Hughes also hears three loud "cannon" shots, witnesses an assassination and almost immediately hears the voice of Geneva Hine imploring her to open the door...but Hughes does not open the door. 

4. The woman in the SW publisher's office, likely Hughes as no strangers are seen that day inside the TBSD, then leaves the premises one hour after the JFKA, and is not searched.  Could she have shells, or a dis-assembled rifle under a fall-weather coat? Who knows? 

5. Hughes' office is never searched, let alone dusted for prints. Hughes is never tested for gunshot residue, ala LHO. It may even be possible a credenza or other furniture with a false bottom was inside the publisher's office. It is possible another person could have been in the Hughes office. Since the publishers' offices were not immediately searched, perhaps if there were another person in the office he could have put on a suit and left the building later in the hub-bub, assuming the role of a Secret Service or police official. We know there was a Secret Service imposter on the Grassy Knoll--why not a suited man with credentials inside the TSBD?  There are stories about SS suits outside the TSBD. 

6. Curiously, Hine, though a veteran TSBS employee, apparently does not know Carol Hughes by name, despite knowing other publishers offices' workers by name on the second floor. Hine did not seem to know Hughes' name even four months later when she testified to the WC. Was Hughes a recent hire? 

7. Whatever happened to Hughes? Where did she work before? Did she leave employment soon after the TSBD? What what her background? What was her maiden name? 

So, the JFKA gunfire sounded like "cannon" shots in the second floor of the TSBD, and Jarman said the shots came from below him, and he was on the fifth floor. 

Interesting....

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Very interesting indeed, but I am not sure how "indicative" their impressions are.

I was looking at some websites (a.o. sources) that explain how sound travels through a building, a lot of stuff on diversion, reflection, absorption, etc. 

If you have one loud "bang" it will reach your ears from different directions (e.g. open windows, staircase, floor....) at nearly the same time, and can be very confusing as to were it actually was coming from.  

  

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Very interesting indeed, but I am not sure how "indicative" their impressions are.

I was looking at some websites (a.o. sources) that explain how sound travels through a building, a lot of stuff on diversion, reflection, absorption, etc. 

If you have one loud "bang" it will reach your ears from different directions (e.g. open windows, staircase, floor....) at nearly the same time, and can be very confusing as to were it actually was coming from.  

  

Yes indeed.

One of the puzzles of the JFKA is the witness statements regarding the directions of the three and sometimes four gunshots heard. Earnest witnesses standing side-by-side outside the TSBD described the shots as coming from above, or the GK. In fact, Roy Truly thought the shots had come from the GK. 

And a middle-aged lady (Hine), unaccustomed to gunfire, might describe a loud noice as like a "cannon." 

Still, interesting. 

 

[Tom Gram]

On 11/4/2022 at 9:55 PM, David Von Pein said:

Yes, Tom, you're correct. According to CD796, that is not the SW Publishing office, it's the open office space north of SWP.

The reason I said it was South-Western's office is merely because Karen Westbrook herself identified that picture as being a photo of her office during her 2017 interview with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum. Westbrook said this when she was shown that photo during the interview:

"This is my office; I remember it well."

So, either Karen was mistaken or the FBI labeled it incorrectly in their picture for CD796. My opinion is that Karen Westbrook (after 54 years) was simply not remembering exactly what her TSBD office looked like, even though she did say she remembered it well.

The main reason I think Karen is mistaken and the FBI's floor plan has it right is because of the long vertical column that extends all the way to the ceiling in the "No. 28" FBI photo. That is probably the "Dumbwaiter", which is labeled as such in the second-floor diagram. It's in the right location at any rate.

The floor plan says the Dumbwaiter goes only to the "1st floor", which I guess means it doesn't extend through the ceiling of the 2nd-floor offices to go to the 3rd floor. But that wouldn't necessarily mean it wouldn't go from floor to ceiling right there on the second floor, right? It just doesn't extend through the ceiling to the floor above.

It's not really all that important, but a puzzle like this to solve every now and then is always kind of entertaining. ....

Good catch on the dumbwaiter. I think you are spot on. I haven’t looked at the TSBD diagrams or photos in a while - do you (or anyone else) know if there are any other floors where the FBI didn’t take any photos that show the south side of the building? 

From the second floor diagram it looks like they were just trying to document Oswald’s alleged escape route - which isn’t really surprising - and I’m curious about the specific goals the FBI had for taking photos throughout the TSBD. Did the FBI commission the photos on their own, was it a WC request, etc.? 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Good catch on the dumbwaiter. I think you are spot on. I haven’t looked at the TSBD diagrams or photos in a while - do you (or anyone else) know if there are any other floors where the FBI didn’t take any photos that show the south side of the building? 

From the second floor diagram it looks like they were just trying to document Oswald’s alleged escape route - which isn’t really surprising - and I’m curious about the specific goals the FBI had for taking photos throughout the TSBD. Did the FBI commission the photos on their own, was it a WC request, etc.? 

In the diagram there is a longish "counter" marked, towards the east side of the "office space" room---is this the right photo? 

There are also windows visible in the photo, which should be hidden by Mr. Campbell's office?  

[Guest]

"Counter" is misleading, it looked like a bench cfr. pic. 29 (and the indication on the diagram makes it somewhat clear).  'll attach the "counter" picture.  The counter is not visible on the East picture (and the floordiagram is very misleading in that way !!).  

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

The East picture is IMO looking straight at Campbell's office. His door is closed, 1 inside window to the right of the door, visible through the inside window is a part of an outside window.    

But as said the "counter" is very very misleading

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

In the diagram there is a longish "counter" marked, towards the east side of the "office space" room---is this the right photo? 

There are also windows visible in the photo, which should be hidden by Mr. Campbell's office?  

I think the windows are just two interior windows to Campbell’s office. They are faint but shown on the diagram (see image 29 above for close up).

The window on the far right however is on the East wall - notice how it looks different/extends farther to the ceiling than the Campbell windows. As Jean Paul pointed out, it also looks like part of other East windows are visible through the Campbell windows, which lines up with the diagram.

I also agree that Campbell’s office door is on the far left right next to/behind what DVP identified as the dumbwaiter. 

[Guest]

On the next I am not 100% sure, but it could be that through that window we are looking at the corner of the opposite building, the ledge.  I think that building was also lower, I must see if I can find a better picture to compare the level, as I am sure the recent picture has some corrected barrel distortion (making a comparison very hard).  PS : the green lines should start at the side (Houston) of the TSBD, not the front (Elm-side) as I have drawn them.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans