Otto

[Ron Bulman]

Going from the kitchen through the den I stopped.  That's James Garner's voice.  I sat down to see what my wife was watching.  An old Halmark movie from 1990.  Decoration Day.  Garner is a retired Georgia judge whose childhood black friend is refusing the Medal of Honor.  Garner goes to the library.

Garner tells his friend, you were not shot by a white American solider, intentionally.  At the Battle of the Bulge a brigade of English speaking Germans in American uniforms led by Otto Skorzeny . . .  What???

So afterward I looked.  I don't know much about Otto but Paul is suspicious of him and I've always found Paul credible.  Yes, Otto led this ill fated, overall ineffective excursion on direct orders from Hitler, under protest.  I never knew he was called scarface (like Al Capone, for a different reason) from fencing in France, or about Operation Grief.

Operation Greif and Otto “Scarface” Skorzeny - Warfare History Network

I think I've read he ran an assassination team, based in Germany in the 1950's?  That he might have been involved in the JFKA???  Does anyone else remember such?  Any documentation?

It does all sound a bit fishy.  Skorenzy had to have known Gehlen, working for him in the 50's-early 60's, before?  Knew Dulles, working for him through Gehlen?    

[Guest]

One has to look at the Odessa en Spider org. that helped Natzi's escape to e.g. South-America.

The Spider org. was Skorzeny's, worked from Spain (where Skorzeny died in the 1970's).  He was in Spain because

he had helped Gen. Franco take power in the Spanish Civilian war ( note GDM's interest in that war, wanting to make a film about it...)

Gehlen was supported by the US very fast, he certainly must have known Skorzeny, but if they worked together post-war I don't know.

He also helped Natzi to escape to South-America and the USA, in a way perhaps they both worked with Dulles in Switserland.

BUT the organization of Natzi in foreign countries had started in the 1930's (e.g. Dimitri VM, Constantin Maydell and - IMO - George DM...).

The problem is prooving these had contacts with Skorzeny, or LHO having (indirect) contact with Gehlen.  At least when returning from Russia Gehlen MUST have know about LHO, it was his freakin' job, and they passed Germany on the way home.  Gehlen was all about Russian spies, so.... where are those reports ?   

      

Edited January 21, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

Also, see the chapter :  1952 The Travels of Klaus Barbie, Evita Peron, Otto Skorzeny, and Nicolae Malaxa

on this webpage : https://www.afrocubaweb.com/news/National Socialistskennedyassassination.htm

[Matthew Koch]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

It does all sound a bit fishy.  Skorenzy had to have known Gehlen, working for him in the 50's-early 60's, before?  Knew Dulles, working for him through Gehlen?    

Ron, Skorzeny was very famous. I just got done reading the Skorzeny papers highly recommend. The book is pretty weak on proving he did the assassination, but it does make a really good case for Skorzeny being QJ/WIN. https://www.amazon.com/Skorzeny-Papers-Evidence-Plot-Kill/dp/1510708413/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1GGP1SN57U7R8&keywords=the+skorzeny+papers&qid=1674314009&sprefix=The+skor%2Caps%2C176&sr=8-1

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Matthew Koch

[Paul Brancato]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Going from the kitchen through the den I stopped.  That's James Garner's voice.  I sat down to see what my wife was watching.  An old Halmark movie from 1990.  Decoration Day.  Garner is a retired Georgia judge whose childhood black friend is refusing the Medal of Honor.  Garner goes to the library.

Garner tells his friend, you were not shot by a white American solider, intentionally.  At the Battle of the Bulge a brigade of English speaking Germans in American uniforms led by Otto Skorzeny . . .  What???

So afterward I looked.  I don't know much about Otto but Paul is suspicious of him and I've always found Paul credible.  Yes, Otto led this ill fated, overall ineffective excursion on direct orders from Hitler, under protest.  I never knew he was called scarface (like Al Capone, for a different reason) from fencing in France, or about Operation Grief.

Operation Greif and Otto “Scarface” Skorzeny - Warfare History Network

I think I've read he ran an assassination team, based in Germany in the 1950's?  That he might have been involved in the JFKA???  Does anyone else remember such?  Any documentation?

It does all sound a bit fishy.  Skorenzy had to have known Gehlen, working for him in the 50's-early 60's, before?  Knew Dulles, working for him through Gehlen?    

Ron - two recent books focus on Skorzeny. In addition there is a group in Spain still investigating his life and business dealings. 1st book is The Skorzeny Papers by Major Ganis. Second is Coup in Dallas by Hank Albarelli. I can’t recall the Spanish doc I saw. Leslie Sharp, who finished Hank’s book and took it to press after his unfortunate demise, might remember this doc, and have more to say. Yes I remain suspicious of Otto, and there are many reasons for this, most of which I’ve posted on this forum over the years. Interesting CIA interview with a Cuban Exile is a thread I started here years ago. It prompted me to look up all press mentions I could find from the 1950’s through 1963. That yielded some results, such as a story that he had been hired at one time to plan and execute a capture of Castro. There is a YouTube video interview of Otto by a Canadian journalist in which he is asked whether he ever worked for Castro (I think?) to which he replied he had been hired both by friends and enemies of Castro. This statement is why I found the CIA interview with a Cuban exile interesting. On page 11 or so of that interview his name comes up as someone supplying arms to Cuban exiles. Some think he was just a blowhard. That is clearly untrue. 

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Also, see the chapter :  1952 The Travels of Klaus Barbie, Evita Peron, Otto Skorzeny, and Nicolae Malaxa

on this webpage : https://www.afrocubaweb.com/news/National Socialistskennedyassassination.htm

This article which I’ve read many times hits bullet points but unfortunately is not footnoted. I still think she was onto something important, and over the years many authors and researchers have fleshed out some of her statements. 

[Pamela Brown]

On 1/21/2023 at 9:30 AM, Paul Brancato said:

This article which I’ve read many times hits bullet points but unfortunately is not footnoted. I still think she was onto something important, and over the years many authors and researchers have fleshed out some of her statements. 

Speaking as someone who grew up with a family of National Socialist's brought over by Wehrner Von Braun, I can say that there was definitely a movement to bring all their ideology to this country with the intent of running it.  May is definitely on the right track...

[Ron Bulman]

On 1/21/2023 at 9:15 AM, Matthew Koch said:

Ron, Skorzeny was very famous. I just got done reading the Skorzeny papers highly recommend. The book is pretty weak on proving he did the assassination, but it does make a really good case for Skorzeny being QJ/WIN. https://www.amazon.com/Skorzeny-Papers-Evidence-Plot-Kill/dp/1510708413/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1GGP1SN57U7R8&keywords=the+skorzeny+papers&qid=1674314009&sprefix=The+skor%2Caps%2C176&sr=8-1

 

This guy is a fast talker.  A lot of interesting info to absorb.  That part at around 11:00 minutes about him trading his freedom for service in the OSS is interesting.  Did that deal continue through to the CIA?  Into the 60's?  

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 3:15 PM, Matthew Koch said:

Ron, Skorzeny was very famous. I just got done reading the Skorzeny papers highly recommend. The book is pretty weak on proving he did the assassination, but it does make a really good case for Skorzeny being QJ/WIN. https://www.amazon.com/Skorzeny-Papers-Evidence-Plot-Kill/dp/1510708413/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1GGP1SN57U7R8&keywords=the+skorzeny+papers&qid=1674314009&sprefix=The+skor%2Caps%2C176&sr=8-1

 

Nice vid explaining who he was at wharp speed. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 1/21/2023 at 9:23 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Ron - two recent books focus on Skorzeny. In addition there is a group in Spain still investigating his life and business dealings. 1st book is The Skorzeny Papers by Major Ganis. Second is Coup in Dallas by Hank Albarelli. I can’t recall the Spanish doc I saw. Leslie Sharp, who finished Hank’s book and took it to press after his unfortunate demise, might remember this doc, and have more to say. Yes I remain suspicious of Otto, and there are many reasons for this, most of which I’ve posted on this forum over the years. Interesting CIA interview with a Cuban Exile is a thread I started here years ago. It prompted me to look up all press mentions I could find from the 1950’s through 1963. That yielded some results, such as a story that he had been hired at one time to plan and execute a capture of Castro. There is a YouTube video interview of Otto by a Canadian journalist in which he is asked whether he ever worked for Castro (I think?) to which he replied he had been hired both by friends and enemies of Castro. This statement is why I found the CIA interview with a Cuban exile interesting. On page 11 or so of that interview his name comes up as someone supplying arms to Cuban exiles. Some think he was just a blowhard. That is clearly untrue. 

I don't think he was a blowhard.  Between Operation Grief and other exploits in WWII, his "rescue" (temporarily) of Mussolini, he was a pretty dynamic person.  I've not read enough on him to know how active he was during the cold war in the 1950's in terms of running operations against Soviet interests on behalf of Gehlen/the CIA.

What I've come to wonder is this.  Whether he was QJ/WIN or not (whether that term might have two meanings or not), could Skorzeny have put together a team of say three assassins in 1963?  Maybe at the behest of Dulles?  Using an intermediary like say Bill Harvey in Rhome?  Irrational speculation?

[Roger Odisio]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I don't think he was a blowhard.  Between Operation Grief and other exploits in WWII, his "rescue" (temporarily) of Mussolini, he was a pretty dynamic person.  I've not read enough on him to know how active he was during the cold war in the 1950's in terms of running operations against Soviet interests on behalf of Gehlen/the CIA.

What I've come to wonder is this.  Whether he was QJ/WIN or not (whether that term might have two meanings or not), could Skorzeny have put together a team of say three assassins in 1963?  Maybe at the behest of Dulles?  Using an intermediary like say Bill Harvey in Rhome?  Irrational speculation?

Not at all. What you are asking, Ron, is what I take to be the main thesis of Albarelli's Coup in Dallas, by way of his understanding of Pierre's LaFitte's notes and other research.  Albarelli describes Lafitte as the project manager of the JFKA.  He names Souetre, whom he describes as Skorzeny's "prized marksman and postwar trainer in the arts of sabotage, explosives, and assassinations" and two Hungarians from Skorzeny's camp as the three assassins (p.xxvii). The book contains 4 organization charts detailing the interconnections between Dulles, Angleton, Harvey, Skorzeny and others with the assassins.

The book is dense.  I'm still going thru it.  Perhaps if Leslie Sharp is around she could explain it more thoroughly.

 

[Matthew Koch]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:22 PM, Ron Bulman said:

 Did that deal continue through to the CIA?  Into the 60's?  

Ron this is why QJ/WIN being Skorzeny is a big deal IMO, is that he is listed in Harvey's ZR Rifle Document from Staff D. 

Project ZRRIFLE

1. Identification: The purpose of Project ZRRIFLE is to spot, develop and use foreign agent assets for Division D operations. Agents will be spotted in several areas, Including the United States, but for operational security reasons will probably not be used In their countries of residence. Present developmental activity Is being conducted in the WE and EE areas, but it is anticipated that this will be extended to other division areas. The project will be operated against third country installations and personnel.

2 Objectives: The objective of this project Is the procurement of code and cipher materials and information concerning such materials, in accordance with requirements levied on the Clandestine Services, primarily by the National Security Agency. Since these requirements are subject to frequent revision, no listing of targets would be valid for the duration of the project. Specific operations will be mounted on the basis of need and opportunity. The project will be conducted by Division D with assistance from area divisions and stations as needed.

3. Background: In response to the increasing requirements for the operational procurement of foreign code and cipher materials, Division D in 1960 began the spotting of (words are illegible) as a developmental activity. During the same period, requirements from NSA became more refined and in many respects, more sensitive. Because most (overseas) stations are not equipped to conduct this type of operation and because of the desirability of completely centralized control over this entire effort, it was determined that Division D, which is in closest touch with NSA on procurement requirements, could conduct the activity. The spotting activity has now advanced far enough to justify removing from the [explor­atory) category.

4. Operational Assets: I) Personnel: QIWIN is under written contract as a principal agent, with the primary task of spotting agent candidates. QJWIN was first contacted in [nearly two lines heavily redacted] In connection with an illegal narcotics operation into the United States, For a period of a year and a half, he was contacted sporadically by Luxembourg, on behalf of the Bureau of Narcotics. Files of the Bureau reflect an excellent performance by QJWIN In October 1960, [page ends abruptly and is not followed by a se­quential sentence.]

The next page In the Harvey papers is the ZRRIFLE budget

QJWIN annual salary           $7,200

Travel and ops expenses for QJWIN and other agents

and agent candidates          2,000 
Fees for services by and standby of agents and agent-

candidates 2,000 
Travel of staff employees engaged in ZRRIFLE activity

[i.e.. Bill Harvey]    2,500 
Hire of safehouses, automobiles, and other operational

expenses   I .000 

14,700

pay_for_agents on completion 0f Jobs?" (Emphasis added) –P.154

The document was originally stamped, "Reproduction prohibited": one version is stamped, "Approved for release 28 Aug 1985; the other version is stamped, "Approved for release CIA Historical Review Program 1993." How the notes came into the possession of CG Harvey remains a mystery.

I) Legal, ethical-moral, operational problems; political; non­attributab ility.

2)               Our own experience (Bangkok) (& effect on DDP) and experi­ences w/ KGB (Crossup, Bandera group, Khokhlov [i.e., KGB assassi­nation operations])—require most professional, proven operationally competent, ruthless, stable [could also be "sterile," as in securely compartmented], CE-experienced ops officers (few available), able to conduct patient search & w/ guts to pull back if instinct or knowl­edge tells him he should, and w/ known high regard for opera­tional security, assessment and [illegible].

3)               Maximum securiry: (highest not secure enough) & within KUBARK [CIA] only (e.g., how much does Siragusa [the senior Bu­reau of Narcotics official for whose needs Q]WIN had originally been recruited] need to know?) Limitation on number code clerks for enciphering and deciphering. Guise of [illegible] objective, No approach to other Govt agencies.

b.               Within Kubark, one focal point for control, search, training, case officering, etc. DDP authority in this focal point mandatory. DCI officially advised?

c.                Max. security cable commo for innocuous cables only; no restric­tions on travel: possibility of one-man overseas (Europe) control base with own (non-Station) commo—word-of-mouth & no bashfulness re trips.

d.               (Every operation to be rigidly case-officered. No silk-shirt PA's [principle agents]) No PA's except for search or intermediaries... .

e.               No approach to officials of foreign guns. (Non-attributabillty; no American citizen or American resident for direct action. Possi­bly for approach to foreign elements.) No criminal who tainted by use by another American agency. Use of case officers who can pass as foreigners—and limited official reference. No chain of con­nection permitting blackmail. Don't I ] any H as home territory. Avoid discussion with foreign officials until all possibility of search through ( I has been examined.

f.                1. No approach to any agent who ever [worked for] a U.S. Govt agency. Training by opposition would reveal.

g.               Use of already tested assets (e.g. [blanked-out—probably QJWIND In the search.

h.               Stand-by list of Kubarkers [CIA staff members] who can pass as foreigners.

i.                Pretext: Kutube/D [FI/D] search, this established (e.g. Rome) [Note: It is Interesting that Germany is not listed specifically as a recruiting ground; it could and should have provided a consider. able pool of potential break-and-enter crooks, and/or assassins of various, even Indeterminate, nationalities. Perhaps for that very reason, and because of the large American presence there, it was excluded as too obvious a source.]

j.                No discussion In [CIA] stations.

k.               K No "team" until ready to go, if at all

l.                4. Blackmail:

m.              a, I& American citizens or residents or people who ever obtained U.S. visas.

n.               No chain of knowledgeable [?—sic]. Strictly person-to-person; singleton ops.

o.               No meeting any candidate in home territory.

p.               Exclude organized criminals, e.g. Sicilians, criminals, those w/ record of arrests, those w/ instability of purpose as criminals.

q.               Staffers involved—selection.

r.                5. Cover: planning should include provision for blaming Sovs or Czechs in case of blow organization criminals, those with record of arrests, those who have engaged in several types of crime. Corsicans  recommended Sicilians could lead to Mafia.

s.                6. Testing of nominees essential: re following directions, secu­rity, blackmail,

t.                7. Former resistance personnel a possibility. Period of testing, surveillance, etc, for each selection. All Kubark personnel should have some CE experience.

u.               8. Use nobs* who has never dealt w/ criminals; otherwise will not be aware of pitfalls or consider factors such as freedom to travel, wanted lists, etc.

v.        Should have phony 201 [personnel file] in RI [Central Regis­_try] fo backstop this. All documents therein forged and backdated. Should look like a CE file.

w.        Possible use of defectors for these actions.

x.        Silverthorne and stable in [sic—?]

What are limits on team or individuals selected? No 'team" until ready to go.

Danger of standbys.

Keeping of files's [Emphasis added.]

If we did not now live in such a chilling age, the relentless, ruthless qualifications Harvey was looking for would be startling in themselves. Yes, the project outline can be read to apply only to break-and-enter crypto procurement. But it could also have applied to the recruitment of assas­sins. At any rate, it was obviously intended to provide absolute maximum security for one or more very nervy operations.

In light of what comes later, paragraph 4d is particularly interesting: "Exclude organized criminals, e.g. Sicilians, criminals, those w/ record of arrests, those w/ instability of purpose as criminals." Followed by para. graph 5: "Cover: planning should include provision for blaming Sovs or Czechs in case of blow ... organization criminals, those with record of ar­rests, those who have engaged in several types of crime, Corsicans recom­mended Sicilians could lead to Mafia." And, finally, paragraph 7: "Former resistance personnel a possibility. Period of testing, surveillance, etc. for each selection."

A significant question arises from the mention, immediately above, of Sicilians: Why was Harvey concerned that investigation could "lead to the Mafia"? There is the barest hint here of explosive connections among the CIA, the American Mafia, and its Sicilian parent group. We'll look at the possible connection later.

Also in the personal file left by Harvey, and later, CG, is a memoran­dum dated less than a month later that carries no classification stamp but has a handwritten note from Harvey: "Skip, Pls file securely." Thls memo was Bill's license to proceed.

February 1962

MEMORANDUM FOR: William K. Harvey

SUBJECT: Authorization of ZRRIFLE Agent Activities

1. For the purpose of ZRRIFLE activities, you are hereby au­thorized to retain the services of Principal Agent QJWIN and such

 other principal agents and sub-agents as may be required. This authorization will continue to be in force through 31 December 1962, subject to renewal at that time.

2.                As established by contract with him. QJW1N's salary will be $7,200 per annum. Accounting for the expenses of Q1WIN and other agents Involved in this activity will be in the form of receipts for funds received by them, and these receipts will be retained in the ZRRIPLE covert operational file. Because of the sensitive nature of this activity, accounting for funds will be by general category and by your [portion illegible]. In addition to the salary payable to , . QJWIN, you are authorized the expenditure of $7,500 through 31 December 1962, If further funds are necessary, they will be provided.

3.                This memorandum is to be considered in lieu of project and constitutes authorization for all travel, per diem, operational and other expenses.

4, It is requested that this activity be handled strictly on an EYES OW basis.

/s/ 
Richard Helms 
Deputy Director (Plans) 16

 

[Paul Brancato]

I should add a few things I found very revealing. Arnold Silver in early 1960’s was CIA station chief in either Luxembourg or Belgium (sorry I don’t recall which but think it was Luxembourg) He was, using a code name, Harvey’s contact with QJWIN. In 1946-47 Silver was an investigator with the Army’s CIC - counter intelligence corp. He wrote, bragged even, that one of his main subjects was Otto Skorzeny. In his final report Silver recommended that Otto be released and allowed to resettle in Spain, Otto’s preference. Silver, in this report, explained that in his view Otto was not a N A Z I, but rather a patriot! I find it hard to think this connection to his role in procuring QJWIN is coincidental. And we all know that Otto was what he was. 
In the early 1960’s, according to former Mossad agents, Otto, while living in Madrid and hobnobbing with various big wigs, all monitored by the US military btw, was recruited by Mossad who made a deal with him to not mess with his freedom in return for Otto’s participation in destroying Egypt’s nuclear program. He was a good fit, having spent a decade traveling to and from Egypt where he was close to several former N A Z I scientists. I believe Mossad officially denies this, but the former agents who broke the story are quite convincing. The fact that Otto was well known to and admired by both US and Israeli Intelligence is troubling and suggestive. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I should add a few things I found very revealing. Arnold Silver in early 1960’s was CIA station chief in either Luxembourg or Belgium (sorry I don’t recall which but think it was Luxembourg) He was, using a code name, Harvey’s contact with QJWIN. In 1946-47 Silver was an investigator with the Army’s CIC - counter intelligence corp. He wrote, bragged even, that one of his main subjects was Otto Skorzeny. In his final report Silver recommended that Otto be released and allowed to resettle in Spain, Otto’s preference. Silver, in this report, explained that in his view Otto was not a N A Z I, but rather a patriot! I find it hard to think this connection to his role in procuring QJWIN is coincidental. And we all know that Otto was what he was. 
In the early 1960’s, according to former Mossad agents, Otto, while living in Madrid and hobnobbing with various big wigs, all monitored by the US military btw, was recruited by Mossad who made a deal with him to not mess with his freedom in return for Otto’s participation in destroying Egypt’s nuclear program. He was a good fit, having spent a decade traveling to and from Egypt where he was close to several former N A Z I scientists. I believe Mossad officially denies this, but the former agents who broke the story are quite convincing. The fact that Otto was well known to and admired by both US and Israeli Intelligence is troubling and suggestive. 

It was in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.   

To the n.-east of it you have a Belgian Province (is more or less like a County) that is also called Luxemboug.

 

[Ron Bulman]

This all "fits" a line of thought I've had for several years now.  

I've wondered about the CIA using Cubans as the actual snipers in the JFKA.  I know there were assassins trained in Operation 40.  But if any participated in the JFKA I question whether silence could be assured.  Between those of Operation 40, the BOP veterans and the large Cuban community in Florida in particular, to steal a phrase from Larry, someone would have talked.  And they did.  About peripheral aspects.  Foreknowledge (Martino), Marita Lorenz and much more.  Further, legitimate shooter suspects names have emerged (thanks for your work, David Boylan).  I am still conflicted on all this.  But I have to wonder too, if the CIA, at the top, might have wondered as well about loose lips in this respect.

I've read some summarized version of Harvey's ZR-RIFLE notes before but not in the depth above.  Some of his points fit well with my thoughts.  Strict security, no one from the USA, no one with US connections (no US trained Cubans?) no one from the US-Sicilian mafia.  Maybe Corsicans.  Maybe ultimately through Skorzeny, Soutre and a couple of Hungarians, who have disappeared into history?

Then there's Harvey's March 63' trip from Rome to Florida and fishing trip down the coast with ???, with Morales waiting on shore?  For operational details?  And Bill's subordinate seeing him on a plane from Rhome to Dallas in November?

Where Soutre and the Hungarians mote trusted to assure shots into the hairline above the right eye and right temple.  By Dulles.  Soutre "kicked out" of the US within 24 hours, the Hungarians liquidated?  

Wild speculation?  Throw it against the wall and see what sticks.