Did Fidel Kill Kennedy?

[Gary Buell]

Since you believe Castro was behind the assassination you might want to obtain these documents:

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AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10071-10479

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 010106

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CITIZEN

FROM : GALVIN, DOMINICK

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 07/08/1978

PAGES : 7

DOCUMENT TYPE : LETTER

SUBJECTS : GENERAL CORRESPONDENCE

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/21/1993

COMMENTS : Box 186.

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AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10096-10445

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES.

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 009553

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CITIZEN

FROM : GALVIN, DOMINICK.

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 06/28/1978

PAGES : 6

DOCUMENT TYPE : LETTER.

SUBJECTS : GENERAL CORRESPONDENCE.

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/06/1993

COMMENTS : Box 175.

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AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10083-10227

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 011147

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CITIZEN

FROM : GALVIN, DOMINICK\

TO : HSCA

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 08/19/1978

PAGES : 10

DOCUMENT TYPE : LETTER

SUBJECTS : GENERAL CORRESPONDENCE

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/24/1993

COMMENTS : Box 203.

Mr. Galvin was an Irish citizen who was told by a Cuban friend of a Castro conspiracy to kill JFK when he visited Ireland which was later postponed until Dallas. I have a good deal of information on this which I will try to post at a later date.

[Ron Ecker]

If everybody else knows about this great but I'd like to see a source and

some corroboration as it strikes me as a serious cold war history incident that

needs some attention.

I did a web search on Santiestaban. Correct spelling is Santiesteban. I found these two articles about the Manhattan bombing plan:

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oaghf020.php

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/pulverizer.html

The first article cites no sources at all. The second article cites the following two sources for the portion of the article about the plot:

plot to destroy Manhattan in Andrew Tully, White Tie and Dagger. New York: Pocket Books, 1968, 74-78 (Tully mistakenly believes the plot was a Soviet idea, but it was Castro's), also in Andres Oppenheimer, Castro's Final Hour. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992.

I checked at Amazon.com on these two books. The Tully book is out of print. The Oppenheimer book is still in print, and you can do a search inside the book. I did a search and there is no reference in the book to Santiesteban or Santiestaban, Manhattan, or TNT. There is one reference to New York in the 1980s.

Ron

[Larry Hancock]

Thank you Ron, most helpful as always! On the surface of it both the

primary articles seem to be from exiles and are written with an agenda.

Which doesn't mean they are wrong but it true they are picking up some

history totally outside normal historical sources and we would need to

see some FBI documents and wtiness, news coverage etc. - something

beyond what is in the articles and in what Ron turned up.

We do have some fairly new historical sources that show us Castro browbeat

the Soviet air defence commander into firing the SAM that brought down the U2 and almost triggered an American response - with the Soviets being none too happy about that.

While I have no doubt Castro would have used nukes, could he get them, against an American invasion its another thing entirely to start the war knowing the result.

Tim, I'd say if you are going to use this incident as a source then you probably need to go further back to try and find some corroboration as well.

I'm certainly going to see if I can find those two books myself.

-- Larry

If everybody else knows about this great but I'd like to see a source and

some corroboration as it strikes me as a serious cold war history incident that

needs some attention.

I did a web search on Santiestaban. Correct spelling is Santiesteban. I found these two articles about the Manhattan bombing plan:

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oaghf020.php

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/pulverizer.html

The first article cites no sources at all. The second article cites the following two sources for the portion of the article about the plot:

plot to destroy Manhattan in Andrew Tully, White Tie and Dagger. New York: Pocket Books, 1968, 74-78 (Tully mistakenly believes the plot was a Soviet idea, but it was Castro's), also in Andres Oppenheimer, Castro's Final Hour. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992.

I checked at Amazon.com on these two books. The Tully book is out of print. The Oppenheimer book is still in print, and you can do a search inside the book. I did a search and there is no reference in the book to Santiesteban or Santiestaban, Manhattan, or TNT. There is one reference to New York in the 1980s.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Pat Speer]

I checked at Amazon.com on these two books. The Tully book is out of print. The Oppenheimer book is still in print, and you can do a search inside the book. I did a search and there is no reference in the book to Santiesteban or Santiestaban, Manhattan, or TNT. There is one reference to New York in the 1980s.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have the Oppenheimer book but have not read it. I'll look through the book and try to answer any specific questions you guys may have.

[Tim Gratz]

The plot to bomb New York City was reported in "Vendetta". According to that book, Robert F. Kennedy publicy thanked Hoover for the FBI's role in uncovering the plot and capturing the plotters.

"Vendetta" references reports of the arrests in both the New York Times and the Washington Post", as well as the author's interview with an FBI agent involved in the assassination.

I agree with Larry that it is incredible that this "incident", following on the heels of the Cuban missile crisis, did not receive more attention than it did, either contemporaneously or historically. Even if the casualty count had only been in the hundreds rather than the thousands, a US attack on Cuba would have been assured. I suspect that under the circumstances the Russians would not have retaliated. Which raises the inference that the Cubans plotted the attack without the endorsement of the Soviets.

It is also interesting that the main plotter entered the US on October 17, 1962, almost immediately before the missile crisis began.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Gary wrote:

Mr. Galvin was an Irish citizen who was told by a Cuban friend of a Castro conspiracy to kill JFK when he visited Ireland which was later postponed until Dallas. I have a good deal of information on this which I will try to post at a later date.

To Gary:

Very interesting. I will check it out for sure, and I look forward to your subsequent posting on this subject.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

While the fact that Fidel plotted to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Americans in November of 1962 does not prove, of course, that he killed one American in November of 1963, it certainly substantially undercuts the major argument against Cuban involvement in the assassination.

For instance, to justify its refusal to find Cuban involvement in the assassination, its its Final Report the House Select Committee on Assassinations stated:

. . .[T]he risk of retaliation that Cuba would have incurred by conspiring in the assassination of an American President must have canceled out other considerations that might have argued for that act. President Castro's description of the idea as "insane" is appropriate. And there was no evidence indicating an insane or grossly reckless lack of judgment on the part of the Cuban Government.

Similar arguments, of course, have been made by members of this forum.

But clearly, a plot to kill hundreds of innocent Americans on the day after Thanksgiving of 1962 indicates at the minimum a "reckless lack of judgment". As I said above, had the plot succeeded it certainly would have invited if not required retaliation by the US against Cuba.

The quotation from the HSCA raises the important question: did the HSCA even CONSIDER the bomb plot?

So, in summary, the 1962 plot to bomb New York substantially undermines one of the major arguments against Cuban involvement in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

[Pat Speer]

It is also interesting that the main plotter entered the US on October 17, 1963, almost immediately before the missile crisis began.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1962, Tim. 63 assassination 62 missile crisis... (I know you know)

I glimpsed through the Andres Oppenheimer book Castro's Final Hour and it tells quite a different story than the one Tim posted.

On page 39 it states that during the missile crisis, Castro sent Tony De La Guardia to New York on a special mission, which was to blow up the UN with 500 kilos of dynamite should the U.S. invade Cuba. It notes that other versions of the story say it was the Brooklyn Bridge. That Oppenheimer, a Pulitzer Prize-winner, cites various stories of the same event, and never mentions any arrests or news articles, makes me suspect the whole story is a rumor. He cites the source of the story is Brig. Gen. Rafael Pino, who defected to the US in 1987.

Having seen The Fog of War and learned along with McNamara that Castro had operational nukes and was planning on using them should the US have invaded, I have no doubt of the man's ruthlessness when his back is up against the wall, but this story smells like Cuban gossip, a la the Russian defectors of the Bayo/Pawley raid.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, sorry, my typo in the dates was in error as you noticed.

The main plotter did indeed enter the US supposedly as a Cuban diplomat to the UN on October 17, 1962 not 1963--I edited my post to remove the error.

And there were arrests made on November 17, 1962 as reported in both the New York Times and Washington Post.

So there was indeed a 1962 plot and RFK commended the FBI for stopping it.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, obviously Oppenheimer must have gotten part of the story wrong since the plot was continuing on November 17, 1962 after resolution of the missile crisis and was intended to occur on the day after Thanksgiving.

Unless Oppenheimer was refering to a separate, independent plot?

Perhaps Oppenheimer's mistake, if indeed it is one, resulted from the fact that the plot had received so little media and historical mention that he just missed it?

It should be noted that the difference has significant consequences. A plot to bomb New York City in retaliation for an ongoing invasion of Cuba could just be Castro going out in a blaze of "glory" from his perpective. But if the plot was to take place on the day after Thanksgiving, after the resolution of the missile crisis, then it indeed seems nonsensical since it would have invited the retaliation (an invasion) after JFK had refused the invasion during the missile crisis.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Pat Speer]

Pat, obviously Oppenheimer must have gotten part of the story wrong since the plot was continuing on November 17, 1962 after resolution of the missile crisis and was intended to occur on the day after Thanksgiving.

Unless Oppenheimer was refering to a separate, independent plot?

Perhaps Oppenheimer's mistake, if indeed it is one, is that the plot had received so little media and historical mention that he just missed it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, that was the point I was trying to make...that the plot received NO attention at the time and was available in various versions later makes it suspicious to me. Are you SURE it was reported in the New York Times? If so, why does Oppenheimer mention the source of the story as being someone who defected in 87? And why do books like Red Friday, Dagger in the Heart, and The Losers not mention it at all?

I believe there is a kernel of truth to the story--that Castro had a plan of attack if the U.S. invaded--and that this has been blown up into his attempting to kill innocent civilians even after the tensions had died down and the U.S. had promised not to invade. I'd wager this Castro evil terrorist murderer of babies nonsense is just crapola spread by the anti-Castro crowd. Don't believe it.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut . . . or how about you just agreeing that Fidel did it if I prove that Breuer properly reported the plot?

His book references the specific dates the story was reported in the NY Times and Washington post.So now I am challenged and I will try to independently verify the story, including ordering those old papers.

Your comment about Castro "evil terrorist murderer of babies crapola" however indicates to me that you do not understand the brutalities of the Castro regime and why so many Cubans risk their lives navigating the Florida straits to escape to this country (77,000 have died trying to escape Fidel!), and why so many were willing to die to rid their country of the man who had promised them democracy but brought them tyranny far greater ]than under Batista.

It will take some time to put together but for the moment consider these facts:

In 1986 Cuba's suicide rate was 24 per thousand, double that of Latin America's average and triple what it was under Batista. Got so bad Cuba quit publishing the statistics; they are now state secrets. Suicide is now the primary cause of death for Cubans age fifteen to forty-eight.

According to the Harvard University published "The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression" by 1975 Castro had executed 14,000 Cubans whose bodies were placed in unmarked graves.

More to follow, of course.

[Pat Speer]

Oh, I have no doubt that Castro has done some horrible things, and that he should have stepped down twenty years ago for the good of his country, I just don't see an historical pattern of him engaging in terrorism for terrorism's sake! Can you think of one strategic reason he would plan a terrorist attack AFTER he has just gotten what he wanted--a pledge from the U.S. not to invade? If there was a plot, I'll bet you a buck it was a contingency plot if the U.S. invaded, along Oppenheimer's reporting...

Edited April 20, 2005 by Pat Speer

[Larry Hancock]

Tim, I think its a good thing you are going to try to verify this story by

finding corroboration in the NYC papers. Obviously if the plot was that

well documented there should also be a variety of FBI reports and even

White House documents pertaining to it. That sort of thing would not

have escaped National Security briefings and should have been discussed

by everyone from CIA to State. Its not the sort of thing that pops up in

a newspaper report and goes away if its true. And it would be amazing that all the historical research on the Missile Crisis missed that sort of material.

Another thing that makes me cautions is that I have a whole series of newspaper reports quoting FBI and DEA sources in 1963 talking about drug busts demonstrating that Castro was running in Chicom drugs in a huge plot against the U.S. Of course when you get into the details you find that none of the people arrested had any ties to anyone except crime figures and none to Castro. Over the years a good deal of info has emerged that shows (its documented well in Strength of the Wolf) that those drug busts had nothing to do with Castro and all involved knew it. The drugs were coming from SE Asia and through France and nobody wanted to talk about the new SE Asia connection replacing Turkey as a source.

You also need to look at the books this bombing plot is being presented in and ask yourself whether there is an agenda going. I'd be the last person to think that Castro might not have had a retaliation strategy as Pat describes but that's another story entirely. Not that Castro shouldn't have been removed decades ago for crimes against humanity....its just too bad the U.S. handled things so poorly the Cubans didn't get a chance to do that themselves.

[Tim Gratz]

Larry wrote:

Not that Castro shouldn't have been removed decades ago for crimes against humanity....its just too bad the U.S. handled things so poorly the Cubans didn't get a chance to do that themselves.

Could not agree with you more here, Larry. In the Supplement to your wonderful book you mention a Cuban exile organization that attempted to warn the CIA that the time was not yet ripe for an invasion of Cuba. Its warnings were ignored and the CIA did not even inform this organization of the upcoming BOP.

Several Cuban exiles have commented that the WASP, Ivy League CIA officers demonstrated a condescending attitude toward the Cubans, bordering even on racism.