Critics Still Attacking Oliver Stone's "JFK" Film With Same Old "Factual Deviancies" Crap.

[W. Niederhut]

33 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

This is downright crazy talk. It is people like you who make all conspiracy advocates look bad. So rather than face the facts about Prouty, you are actually accusing me of being another John McAdams and of peddling CIA propaganda??? Goodness gracious, that is beyond silly and absurd. How can you reach such a bizarre conclusion just because I'm pointing out the gaping holes in Prouty's claims and credibility? You should visit my JFK assassination site.

Yes, I've read all of Prouty's books and have viewed every video interview of him that I could find. I notice you said nothing about Prouty's false claims. 

Just try to think of the matter this way: Just think how much stronger and how much less vulnerable to criticism the movie JFK would have been if it had not repeated Prouty's nutty claims?

Think how much harder it would have been for critics to assail the movie if it had not repeated Prouty's absurd, discredited claims about Prouty's alleged role in presidential protection, Lansdale's allegedly sinister sending of Prouty on a supposedly diversionary trip to the South Pole, Lansdale's alleged role in stripping JFK of security in Dallas by sending Prouty to the South Pole, Lansdale's alleged hatred of JFK, Lansdale's alleged role in the murders of Lumumba and Trujillo, Prouty's alleged phone call with an officer of the 112th, and JFK's alleged intention to abandon South Vietnam after the election no matter what? 

If the movie had not included these false claims, just think how much harder it would have been for critics to dismiss it as "a crazy conspiracy theory film." 

I give Oliver Stone great credit for repudiating Prouty's claims about Lansdale. Are you going to accuse Stone of likewise peddling CIA propaganda?

C'mon, man.

What was the nature of Prouty's long-term relationship with Ed Lansdale?

Did Lansdale tell Prouty before 11/22/63 that he would be, unexpectedly, flying to Antarctica?

What was Prouty's official position in 1963?

Was he working with the USAF and CIA as a briefing officer in the JFK administration?

Was he merely a pilot, as Lansdale later claimed?

Was Prouty involved in writing DOD material relating to NSAM 263 and JFK's Vietnam policy in the fall of 1963?

Where was Ed Lansdale in November of 1963, and what was he doing?

[Joe Bauer]

12 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Where was Ed Lansdale in November of 1963, and what was he doing?

Until the day the photo of the suited man walking by the Tramps in Dealey Plaza has been "proven" by the latest high technology human gate and physical build analysis "not" to be Lansdale...I will not accept that it isn't him.

[W. Niederhut]

10 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Until the day the photo of the suited man walking by the Tramps in Dealey Plaza has been "proven" by the latest high technology human gate and physical build analysis "not" to be Lansdale...I will not accept that it isn't him.

Yes, and I forgot to ask Michael Griffin the most important Lansdale question of all-- a subject Prouty described in considerable detail in his JFK Vietnam book.

How did Lansdale become Allen Dulles's favorite CIA black ops/psy ops expert?

[Michael Griffith]

19 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

C'mon, man.

What was the nature of Prouty's long-term relationship with Ed Lansdale?

Did Lansdale tell Prouty before 11/22/63 that he would be, unexpectedly, flying to Antarctica?

What was Prouty's official position in 1963?

Was he working with the USAF and CIA as a briefing officer in the JFK administration?

Was he merely a pilot, as Lansdale later claimed?

Was Prouty involved in writing DOD material relating to NSAM 263 and JFK's Vietnam policy in the fall of 1963?

Where was Ed Lansdale in November of 1963, and what was he doing?

Prouty had no "long-term relationship" with Lansdale.

No, Lansdale did not send Prouty to Antarctica. Lansdale retired on 11/1/63. Prouty admitted in his ARRB interview that there was nothing sinister about his trip, that it was routine, and that he had previously worked with the group that he escorted on the trip. 

Prouty's official position in 1963 was not "chief of special ops." 

Yes, as I already mentioned, Prouty was a liaison officer between the USAF and the CIA. 

"Merely a pilot"?

Whatever role Prouty had in writing material for NSAM 263 and other policy documents, if he had a role at all, was minor and ancillary. I doubt that he had anything to do with writing material for such documents. 

As for Lansdale's whereabouts on 11/22/63, why do you ask when we know that Lansdale liked and admired JFK and grieved over his death, when we know that Lansdale opposed--yes, opposed--sending large numbers of American troops to South Vietnam, etc., etc.? Anyway, Lansdale was probably at his home in DC. He had just retired from the Air Force 21 days earlier. 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[W. Niederhut]

Michael,

    You, obviously, need to re-read Prouty's book on JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam more carefully.

    As for your old McAdams-esque talking point about Prouty's unusual Antarctic trip being "routine," we already discussed it in exhaustive detail here.

   You are repeating exactly the same bogus buzzwords about Prouty that the McAdams goon squad has posted here in the past-- "crackpot," "routine Antarctic trip," etc.

    The strategy seems to be, "Repeat the bunk about Prouty until uninformed people believe it."

   

[Jeff Carter]

 

The degree of vitriol (“fraud”, crackpot”) is always in inverse proportion to the rather thin gruel offered as nourishment to the charges. In this case it remains a recitation of minor details as they appear in a motion picture (”JFK”) which openly engaged dramatic licence to simplify and condense complex information. That this continues thirty years after the fact is amazing.

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

As for Lansdale's whereabouts on 11/22/63, why do you ask when we know that Lansdale liked and admired JFK and grieved over his death, when we know that Lansdale opposed--yes, opposed--sending large numbers of American troops to South Vietnam, etc., etc.? Anyway, Lansdale was probably at his home in DC. He had just retired from the Air Force 21 days earlier. 

 

Most highest ranking people in our military who have had command roles in our most important military events from WWII through Vietnam have written about them and/or themselves in books or memoirs.

Lansdale never did? 

For those that did and were still in high positions or recently retired from them on 11,22,1963 most would have mentioned the nation and entire world shaking greatest importance crime in our history - the JFKA.

Most commonly asked question to these persons would be...where were you when you heard of the JFKA?

Lansdale never once stated his answer to this question to anyone in any way?

For those who want to promote Lansdale's liking and admiration for JFK ... I ask why this question was never put to Lansdale?

E. Howard Hunt lied about his where abouts on 11,22,1963.

He stated he had lunch at a DC Chinese restaurant that day.

Even his own children could not validate that story.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[W. Niederhut]

Prouty described Lansdale as a "chameleon"-- a man who often disguised and dissembled about his work for Allen Dulles.

He (Prouty) also panned the Currey biography of Lansdale as a work of CIA fiction.

Prouty also pointed out that Lansdale was bitterly disappointed about JFK's decision to remove him from Vietnam (and reassign him to Mongoose.)

As for Dallas, James DiEugenio mentioned (on a thread about the Paul Bleu conference) that Lansdale was in Dallas on 11/22/63.  I think the source of that information was John Newman.

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

As for Dallas, James DiEugenio mentioned (on a thread about the Paul Bleu conference) that Lansdale was in Dallas on 11/22/63.  I think the source of that information was John Newman.

For those who believe Lansdale wasn't in Dallas on 11,22,1963...please tell us where he was, with documented proof.

[Michael Griffith]

15 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

The degree of vitriol (“fraud”, crackpot”) is always in inverse proportion to the rather thin gruel offered as nourishment to the charges. In this case it remains a recitation of minor details as they appear in a motion picture (”JFK”) which openly engaged dramatic licence to simplify and condense complex information. That this continues thirty years after the fact is amazing.

But Prouty was a fraud and he was a crackpot. It's not vitriol if it's true. I am astounded that anyone in this forum is still defending him after all we now know about him. Are you folks just unwilling to process the fact that even Oliver Stone has repudiated Prouty's claims about Lansdale? 

We're not talking about "minor details." Give me a break. "Minor details"? Falsely accusing Lansdale of involvement in the Lumumba and Trujillo murders is not a "minor detail." Falsely accusing Lansdale of hating JFK, when in fact Lansdale liked JFK and grieved over his death, is not a "minor detail." Making the outrageous claim that Lansdale helped strip of JFK of security in Dallas by sending Prouty on a sinister diversionary trip to the South Pole is not a "minor detail." 

I fear it won't do any good, but let's just review some key facts about Lansdale:

-- He opposed sending large numbers of American troops to South Vietnam. He had no problem with military and economic aid, but he believed that placing large number of American troops in South Vietnam was the wrong approach. 

-- He opposed bombing North Vietnam.

-- He criticized the excessive use of force by some American military units in South Vietnam. 

-- He opposed the Bay of Pigs invasion.

-- He even opposed most of the recommendations in the Taylor-McNamara report. 

-- He was bipartisan in his politics. He was neither a diehard Republican nor a diehard Democrat. 

-- In the Philippines, he opposed the massive use of force against Communist insurgents, just as he later did in Vietnam. 

Ed Lansdale was one of the last people on Earth who would have wanted any harm to come to JFK. He liked and admired JFK. He spoke with JFK at some length. And he grieved over JFK's death.

It is crazy talk, downright reckless crazy talk to accuse Lansdale of having played any role in JFK's death. People who continue to peddle this slander are doing harm to the case for conspiracy and are making everyone who posits a conspiracy look bad. 

Again, Oliver Stone himself has repudiated Prouty's charges against Lansdale. 

Go read Prouty's ARRB interview. Prouty himself repudiated the claim that his mission to the South Pole was sinister or unusual. BTW, not once in his ARRB interview did Prouty claim that Lansdale was the one who sent him to the South Pole. Prouty himself admitted he had nothing to do with presidential protection. Prouty himself admitted that he could not name who in the 316th FD/112th MI Group called him, or whom he called in the 316th/112th, and he even seemed to admit that the call was probably "not authentic." And when asked to produce the notes of his call with the 316th/112th, he blandly said he no longer had them but didn't explain why (and he was lucky the ARRB interviewers did not press him to explain why in the world he would not have safeguarded notes that would have been of great historical importance if they had in fact existed).

Prouty actually entertained the idea that Churchill poisoned FDR. Prouty made the bogus claim that we should stop building the F-16 because it was far inferior to the MIG-25 (the reverse was true). Prouty said Nixon was in Dallas during the assassination, when in fact Nixon left Dallas hours before the motorcade. Prouty said that a secret team may have assassinated Princess Diana. Prouty made bogus claims about George Bush and the Bay of Pigs, such as that one of the ships in the invasion was renamed "Barbara" after Bush's wife Barbara, when in fact none of the ships were renamed for the operation. Prouty claimed that KAL Flight 007 was not shot down by the Soviets but was blown up by a CIA-planted bomb. And on and on and on we could go about this crackpot.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

But Prouty was a fraud and he was a crackpot. It's not vitriol if it's true. I am astounded that anyone in this forum is still defending him after all we now know about him.

Michael,

     I'm not going to waste any more time debunking your buzzwords and McAdams/CIA disinformation about Prouty and his long-time colleague Ed Lansdale.

    The Education Forum has already been there and done that.

    My advice to you is to educate yourself by studying our lengthy EF threads on the subject.

    The Education Forum search engine is your friend.

Edited April 5, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Joe Bauer]

So, Prouty only showed himself as a crackpot "after" a long and distinguished rank of colonel officer level military career which had him placed in highest importance positions such as liaison between USAF and CIA?

This "merely a pilot" who could personally call up former Marine Corp senior general Victor "Brute" Krulak and other highest rank military and intelligence agency officers wasn't noticed as a loon by these people during his 20+ years long active duty career?

General Edwin Walker was showing his loony "crack pot" side ( even in his personal life ) "during" his active duty military career. Afterwards, it became full blown.

My sense is that Prouty was effected by the JFKA to a degree that he felt it was of a higher duty to expose what he believed was some type of nefarious collusion involved in the affair. 

Yes, Prouty speculated often about sinister groups being involved in hidden agenda nefarious events even beyond the JFKA. To the point of suggesting these scenarios without being able to provide evidential proof that was beyond doubt.

Why do people try to label Prouty as some "crack pot" and yet only applying this after and separate from his distinguished high responsibility active duty military career?

General Curtis LeMay's promotion of an insane policy of actually risking a nuclear war to achieve America's power dominance was as worthy of the label "nut job" or "crack pot" as anything Prouty may have proposed.

LBJ's corruption reached "nut job" levels. Nixon's entire 25 member staff went to prison and he only escaped prison himself because of a corrupt "pardon" deal pulled off by his blindly loyal buddy Jerry Ford. In his last White House days ( drinking and talking to White House paintings) Nixon was truly a "nut job."

Whatever Prouty is labeled...he was never a totally corrupted crook.

He was a decent honest man in that regards.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Griffith]

19 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Michael,

     I'm not going to waste any more time debunking your buzzwords and McAdams/CIA disinformation about Prouty and his long-time colleague Ed Lansdale.

    The Education Forum has already been there and done that.

    My advice to you is to educate yourself by studying our lengthy EF threads on the subject.

    The Education Forum search engine is your friend.

You haven't debunked anything. The information I've presented about Prouty is not "McAdams/CIA disinformation." Everything I pointed out about Prouty's nutty claims is documented. His admissions in his ARRB interview are a matter of record. Oliver Stone's repudiation of Prouty's claims about Lansdale is a matter of record (and has been posted in this thread). 

It is just embarrassing that we are even having this discussion. No serious researcher should be peddling Prouty's absurd JFKA claims, not to mention his nutty claims about other cases and issues.

And we haven't even talked about Prouty's disreputable associations. 

Prouty's claims have done great damage to the case for conspiracy. Their inclusion in the film JFK gave critics low-hanging fruit with which to attack the film. Again, just think how much harder it would have been for critics to dismiss the film if it had not contained Prouty's bizarre baseless allegations. 

I do agree with you about one thing: I, too, am not going to waste any more time on this thread. This thread is embarrassing. It is pathetic that anyone would get on a public board and defend Prouty's nutty claims (and, again, we haven't even talked about his seedy associations). And then you guys wonder why the conspiracy view is so widely belittled and summarily dismissed by so many scholars and journalists. 

[W. Niederhut]

38 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

You haven't debunked anything. The information I've presented about Prouty is not "McAdams/CIA disinformation." Everything I pointed out about Prouty's nutty claims is documented. His admissions in his ARRB interview are a matter of record. Oliver Stone's repudiation of Prouty's claims about Lansdale is a matter of record (and has been posted in this thread). 

It is just embarrassing that we are even having this discussion. No serious researcher should be peddling Prouty's absurd JFKA claims, not to mention his nutty claims about other cases and issues.

 

Michael,

    You're repeating bogus CIA talking points about Prouty that have been thoroughly debunked on this forum, and by Len Osanic and other knowledgeable people.

     But how could you know that without studying our previous discussions here?

     You need to do more reading and less writing.

[Joe Bauer]

Prouty was initially very concerned with what he saw as extraordinary presidential visit security failures with JFK's Dallas trip.

On a military level.

According to Prouty the army involvement should have been much higher than it was.

Now, either Prouty's proposition of that failure was true...or it wasn't.

In Prouty's experience that security breach was so obvious and nonsensical considering the obvious JFK hostility threat level in perhaps the hub of JFK's most hating groups of great wealth that resided there. 

As well as one for JFK hate centered around race? KKK level hate.

Where "JFK Wanted For Treason" flyers and newspaper ads were on display there right at the time of JFK's presence.

Home to JFK hating extremists like General Ed Walker and JFK Depletion Allowance cut back furious oil barons.

Truly, 1963 Dallas, Texas was clearly and simply one hell of a dangerous place for JFK to visit, let alone drive through in an open topped limo with hundreds of high floor building open windows all around.' 

Screaming for added military security.

Jackie Kennedy SS guard Clint Hill always said the reason his agency never checked open windows above JFK's motorcade was simply a lack of resources to do so. Obviously, the Dallas PD and Sheriff's department as well as the FBI felt high rise open window and roof top security for JFK's open roof top limo was not their job as well.

Might have Army intelligence provided that security duty?

The JFK truth mission effort by thousands of ordinary citizens versus big media giants and our own government has uncovered and revealed many huge truths about nefarious doings by powerful individuals and power groups within our own government since JFK.

Truths we would never have known about had it not been for the JFKA digging and researching effort.

We have proof of those doings.

Secret high importance actions that often crossed Constitutional boundaries and laws.

Beyond the JFK, RFK and MLK killings.

We all know such truths now.

Heck, Watergate criminal actions wiped out an "entire executive leadership branch" with criminal convictions and prison sentences for 25!

And Watergate has been referenced as just the "tip of the iceberg" regards other criminal political doings?

So, with this reality of high level corruption and secret doings since JFK, we are to look at Prouty's claims of similar doings by secret groups as "loony?"

America since JFK has been rocked with proven constitution abusing secret actions time and time again. Corruption all the way to our highest rungs of government office. Include secret agency policy abuses as well.

Prouty's claims don't deserve to be summarily dismissed as nutty, based on these realities imo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Joe Bauer