Who is John T. Martin, Jr. who filmed the motorcade at Dealey Plaza?

[Steve Roe]

15 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes, it's a bit crazy. When I first got into this I was astounded that Ruby and Oswald both had connections to Vincent Lee. It turned out there were two. I was also confused as heck by the two Richard Spragues--BOTH of whom worked for the HSCA.

It's good, moreover, that you recognize the potential pearl in this deep dive: John T Martin. Some of the mucky-mucks are looking into him as his filming the Walker house and Oswald in New Orleans on the same roll of film seems WAY too big a coincidence. 

Pat, it was a coincidence. There's no doubt about it. (John T. Martin)

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Pat, it was a coincidence. There's no doubt about it. (John T. Martin)

Okay. How do we know this? 

I mean, if a tourist came forward with footage of Osama Bin Laden, on the same role of film as the Twin Towers, one would have to be suspicious, right? 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Okay. How do we know this? 

I mean, if a tourist came forward with footage of Osama Bin Laden, on the same role of film as the Twin Towers, one would have to be suspicious, right? 

Well, I agree it does look suspicious on the surface. I looked into this sometime time ago. 

It's better explained here: https://steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com/website/post/did-general-edwin-walker-plot-to-kill-president-kennedy

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

Well, I agree it does look suspicious on the surface. I looked into this sometime time ago. 

It's better explained here: https://steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com/website/post/did-general-edwin-walker-plot-to-kill-president-kennedy

Thanks, Steve. The age of Martin and the circumstances does make it less suspicious. It seems that one would need to shore up a connection between Martin and Walker before making much of this. 

[Greg Doudna]

Update, March 6, 2023: Timmons is not the right guy; see below, with thanks to Steve Roe.   

Edited November 12, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Steve Roe]

11 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

But I do think I have here identified the Minneapolis filmmaker, and the issue of his age is resolved. Minor steps, but at least that little progress.  

Greg, I of course disagree with that. There are other items of John Timothy Martin I did not include in my article. 

Before I get into that, why Martin John Timmons? What makes you suspect that, other than the age? Do you have any proof that Martin John Timmons was in the U.S. Army 24th Infantry? Maybe you have other evidence to support your argument?

Unfortunately, I can't post pictures of this newspaper article of the marriage license notice, so I will transcribe it. Source: Star Tribune (Minneapolis) July 8, 1966

John T. Martin, 22, County Road 82, W. End St., Excelsior; Jerilyn N. Miller, 23, 6820 Pillsbury Av. S. Richfield

That would make John T. Martin born somewhere around 1944, too young to join General Walker's 24th Infantry Army. Remember Walker was relieved of his command in 1961. I believe Schoener's memory was not correct. He admitted it was many years ago. 

I find it a huge stretch that the FBI would not check Martin's (or your Timmons) identification before filing their report. 

Now to back up the film footage, taken on a family vacation: Reverend J. Orville Martin was John's father. He was a Lutheran minister who moved to Minnesota around 1958 from California. His family ancestors were Swedish, and J. Orville spoke the language. Again, another newspaper article from the Minneapolis Star on September 7, 1963:

The Reverend J. Orville Martin, pastor, Mount Calvery Lutheran, Excelsior: "Visiting Sweden the ancestral parishes in Sweden which our relatives attended before coming to this country. We stood in pulpits from which three generations of our people heard had the word of God preached and we took film of baptisteries and altars where they received the sacraments.  

That sounds like a family trip, taking film footage, and would coincide with the Martin's family trip to Dallas, New Orleans (August 9, 1963) and eventually over to Sweden. 

[Greg Doudna]

7 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg, I of course disagree with that. There are other items of John Timothy Martin I did not include in my article. 

Before I get into that, why Martin John Timmons? What makes you suspect that, other than the age? Do you have any proof that Martin John Timmons was in the U.S. Army 24th Infantry? Maybe you have other evidence to support your argument?

Unfortunately, I can't post pictures of this newspaper article of the marriage license notice, so I will transcribe it. Source: Star Tribune (Minneapolis) July 8, 1966

John T. Martin, 22, County Road 82, W. End St., Excelsior; Jerilyn N. Miller, 23, 6820 Pillsbury Av. S. Richfield

That would make John T. Martin born somewhere around 1944, too young to join General Walker's 24th Infantry Army. Remember Walker was relieved of his command in 1961. I believe Schoener's memory was not correct. He admitted it was many years ago. 

I find it a huge stretch that the FBI would not check Martin's (or your Timmons) identification before filing their report. 

Now to back up the film footage, taken on a family vacation: Reverend J. Orville Martin was John's father. He was a Lutheran minister who moved to Minnesota around 1958 from California. His family ancestors were Swedish, and J. Orville spoke the language. Again, another newspaper article from the Minneapolis Star on September 7, 1963:

The Reverend J. Orville Martin, pastor, Mount Calvery Lutheran, Excelsior: "Visiting Sweden the ancestral parishes in Sweden which our relatives attended before coming to this country. We stood in pulpits from which three generations of our people heard had the word of God preached and we took film of baptisteries and altars where they received the sacraments.  

That sounds like a family trip, taking film footage, and would coincide with the Martin's family trip to Dallas, New Orleans (August 9, 1963) and eventually over to Sweden. 

Steve, on your candidate for John T. Martin, how do you reconcile age 22 in 1966 with age 17 in 1963-1965 from the Minutemen card? It doesn't work. The vacation of his Swedish pastor father is to Sweden, no mention of going first to Texas then Louisiana because of an interest in General Edwin Walker (at the first stop). I don't know what the politics of Reverend J. Orville Martin was, but I do know a little of Swedish and Danish Lutheran pastors, being married to a former Danish Lutheran pastor. I know the culture, and it is traditional and conservative but not Minutemen or General Walker right-wing which would be very surprising. The newspaper article mentions no trip to Texas/La. first, and the John T. Martin met by Weisberg and Schoener there is no mention of a continuation of that trip to Sweden. From my memory after the final scene of the torn-up FPCC flyers blowing in the wind on the street after Oswald's arrest, I think there is one final few seconds of airplane flight and clouds indicating a flight back to Minneapolis I presume. Why would footage not continue to Sweden if the family went there next and the film was unedited?

And Schoener remembers the home-film John T. Martin as being a veteran serving under Walker and, in late 1960s late 20s/early 30s age. Schoener:

"The only things I recall were that John was formerly a right-winger who was a member of the John Birch Society and the Minutemen, but somehow serving under Gen. Edwin Walker in Germany caused him to become a pacifist and have to be discharged from the army. The film was taken on a family trip and the other segment on it showed the zoo in NO. We did go to his home, but I have no idea where that was." 

So you have an agreement on the name, a young age, and Minneapolis, and a family trip to Sweden in September, and (I forget) maybe a student verification, as the case for the identification. But it omits completely the General Walker army service for no good reason--only the age on the Minutemen card--and it also does not agree with the age on the Minutemen card either. 

The root of the problem is there is a discrepancy between the Minutemen card age and the claim of John T. Martin (according to Schoener) to have served under Walker in Germany. As I see it there are only three possibilities to resolve this: either (a) the Minutemen age "17" was a typo; (b) the Minutemen age "17" was a false age given by John T. Martin who was actually a different age; or (c) John T. Martin lied in claiming he served in the Army in Germany under Walker or Schoener was mistaken in hearing or memory. 

Of those three, you seem to go for "c", whereas to me, "c" is the least likely of the three. Can you explain why you consider "c" more likely than "a" or "b"? 

Now turning to my candidate, no I do not have any further evidence than cited. The reason I went for that identity was because he had a Minneapolis connection; age in agreement with Schoener's memory; agreement in plausibility with the Walker army service; and the evidence for Timmons using the John T. Martin name for himself which I saw falling into why nobody could ever find the guy plus it looked to me like he gave a false age on his Minutemen card suggesting possible deception or informant activity, plus the deal he made with the Sixth Floor Museum in which the agreement was he donated the film on condition no one ever contact him about it--the guy wanted his privacy (in agreement with using a reversed name--someone who likes his privacy). It is not an airtight argument but you asked my reasons and that was my reasoning. He fits on all counts in terms of "a" or "b" of the three possibilities above, as opposed to your "c".

On your point about the FBI would have verified true identity, as an argument against Timmons representing himself as John T. Martin successfully to the FBI, I am doubtful that FBI routinely asked to see personal identification of walkins or people they interviewed. I have never heard of this. In the accounts I have read of people telling of their FBI interviews I do not recall mention of "they asked to see my driver's license" or something like that. Some FBI interviews are by phone and those would not involve showing personal identification. I am willing to be shown wrong on this but I do not follow that as a decisive point.  

[Steve Roe]

14 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I am willing to be shown wrong on this but I do not follow that as a decisive point.

Greg, I always enjoy a good research discussion. I'll make a couple of points here. 

1. The Minutemen Index membership card could have been from 1961. DePugh's organization was in existence then. 

2. As per your Find-A-Grave on Timmons, it shows he died on May 26, 1997. I confirmed that is correct in a couple of newspaper Obit columns. However, the John T. Martin film was donated to the 6FM in 2007. The 6FM catalogs their collections with the year donated, followed by an item number. In this case the 6FM catalog number for the John T. Martin film is 2007.028.0001. You can check other 6FM collections and see the years that it was entered into the museum. (Link below)

Now something interesting about the John T. Martin film that I have overlooked, it's not the original. From the 6FM description: 

 Further inspection reveals that the film is not the original, but a copy of a copy, which may account for the poor quality of its images. Martin says the film now in the Museum’s collection is the film the FBI returned to him in 1964, but inspection shows the film’s date code shows 1977. The film was borrowed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s and its records are stored at the National Archives (NARA) in College Park, MD. According to NARA, the Martin film is not among those records.

I wonder who has the original? This reminds me of the Nix film shenanigans. 

6FM John T. Martin film

[Tom Gram]

This is an interesting thread. I don’t really have anything to contribute, but I do think it should be possible to verify whether or not Martin, Timmons, etc. served under Walker in Germany. I know Ancestry.com has a ton of military records online, and all military records at NARA are open to the public and available for request once they are over 62 years old: 

https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/military-personnel/ompf-archival-requests

[Greg Doudna]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:54 AM, Steve Roe said:

Greg, I always enjoy a good research discussion. I'll make a couple of points here. 

1. The Minutemen Index membership card could have been from 1961. DePugh's organization was in existence then. 

2. As per your Find-A-Grave on Timmons, it shows he died on May 26, 1997. I confirmed that is correct in a couple of newspaper Obit columns. However, the John T. Martin film was donated to the 6FM in 2007. The 6FM catalogs their collections with the year donated, followed by an item number. In this case the 6FM catalog number for the John T. Martin film is 2007.028.0001. You can check other 6FM collections and see the years that it was entered into the museum. (Link below)

Now something interesting about the John T. Martin film that I have overlooked, it's not the original. From the 6FM description: 

 Further inspection reveals that the film is not the original, but a copy of a copy, which may account for the poor quality of its images. Martin says the film now in the Museum’s collection is the film the FBI returned to him in 1964, but inspection shows the film’s date code shows 1977. The film was borrowed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s and its records are stored at the National Archives (NARA) in College Park, MD. According to NARA, the Martin film is not among those records.

I wonder who has the original? This reminds me of the Nix film shenanigans. 

6FM John T. Martin film

Thanks Steve. Now this 2007 is a curve ball, and I'm willing to throw in the towel if there is evidence of a contact with John T. Martin later than May 26, 1997, but not so fast. The first point is from everything I can read John T. Martin gave the film to Schoener and Weisburg, which means to Schoener who had physical possession, in 1968. Then something about Martin Shackelberg was selling it for some years. Then there is the donation in 2007 but was that donation from John T. Martin? Here is Paul Trejo, 10/31/16: 

I implored Gary Mack to set up an interview with Jack T. Martin, but Gary told me that the sole condition for obtaining the Jack Martin film was that Jack T. Martin must never be contacted by anybody at any time. So, Gary refused to give me Martin's contact info. (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23168-jack-t-martin/)

Note the wording carefully--I do not see the wording as saying who donated the film to the Sixth Floor Museum. Whoever did, made a condition not to contact Jack T. Martin at any time. 

Could be a family member? Paul Trejo interprets that as Gary Mack had current "Martin's contact info" but that is not Gary Mack saying that, that is Trejo's interpretation of Gary Mack's refusal to provide contact info.

I'm going to stick my neck out here--based on how strong my hunch is I have the right guy with Timmons who d. 1997--that there is not confirmation that the donation year of 2007 means John T. Martin the filmmaker was the one personally who did that donation in 1997 or who made that condition with Gary Mack, or any other evidence John T. Martin the filmmaker was alive or anyone spoke to him after 1997. Prove me wrong Steve? 🙂 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

This is an interesting thread. I don’t really have anything to contribute, but I do think it should be possible to verify whether or not Martin, Timmons, etc. served under Walker in Germany. I know Ancestry.com has a ton of military records online, and all military records at NARA are open to the public and available for request once they are over 62 years old: 

https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/military-personnel/ompf-archival-requests

Thank you Tom! Thanks to your advice and link I just filled out my first-ever request on NARA for veteran's records for Martin John Timmons, Jr. (1935-1997)! The website warned me I might not get much due to not being next-of-kin, but I will see what information they send. 

[Steve Roe]

On 3/5/2023 at 11:52 AM, Greg Doudna said:

I'm going to stick my neck out here--based on how strong my hunch is I have the right guy with Timmons who d. 1997--that there is not confirmation that the donation year of 2007 means John T. Martin the filmmaker was the one personally who did that donation in 1997 or who made that condition with Gary Mack, or any other evidence John T. Martin the filmmaker was alive or anyone spoke to him after 1997. Prove me wrong Steve? 🙂 

Well, if Gary Mack was still alive, then this would be a short conversation. 

As per what I cited by the 6FM, Martin says the film now in the Museum’s collection is the film the FBI returned to him in 1964, but inspection shows the film’s date code shows 1977. 

That means Gary Mack had talked to him or had correspondence. From personal experience dealing with the 6FM staff, they just don't accept anything without provenance. As you can see, they checked the film out closely. I'm sure Gary Mack did his homework and wouldn't accept something as important as a historical JFK film without checking the source. 

My John T. Martin was still alive in 2007 (confirmed myself). 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Steve Roe
Add additional sentence

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Well, if Gary Mack was still alive, then this would be a short conversation. 

As per what I cited by the 6FM, Martin says the film now in the Museum’s collection is the film the FBI returned to him in 1964, but inspection shows the film’s date code shows 1977. 

That means Gary Mack had talked to him or had correspondence. From personal experience dealing with the 6FM staff, they just don't accept anything without provenance. As you can see, they checked the film out closely. I'm sure Gary Mack did his homework and wouldn't accept something as important as a historical JFK film without checking the source. 

My John T. Martin was still alive in 2007 (confirmed myself). 

Steve you are right--I checked with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum and he confirms that John T. Martin worked with then-curator Gary Mack in the Museum's obtaining the film in 2007, and that John T. Martin was alive in 2007.

The Minneapolis Timmons who used the same name and died 1997 therefore is not him.  

Is it possible your John T. Martin was in the military but post-1963 not under Walker, and the "Walker" was an error introduced by Schoener (perhaps caused by association with John T. Martin being in the "Minutemen" or the 1963 trip to Dallas to visit Walker himself?--easy error to make?) That would set up this relative sequence which would at least make sense: (a) Minutemen involvement; (b) Aug 1963 trip to Texas/La. to visit Walker; (c) military service; (d) becomes pacifist and exits both military and Minutemen; (e) meets Weisberg and Schoener and gives film. 

With that reconstruction your John T. Martin, the son of the Swedish Lutheran pastor family, would work chronologically provided the 17 years of age Minutemen card could reflect 1961 as you suggest (no need to propose typos or intentional giving of wrong age).

[Steve Roe]

15 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Steve you are right--I checked with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum and he confirms that John T. Martin worked with then-curator Gary Mack in the Museum's obtaining the film in 2007, and that John T. Martin was alive in 2007.

The Minneapolis Timmons who used the same name and died 1997 therefore is not him.  

Is it possible your John T. Martin was in the military but post-1963 not under Walker, and the "Walker" was an error introduced by Schoener (perhaps caused by association with John T. Martin being in the "Minutemen" or the 1963 trip to Dallas to visit Walker himself?--easy error to make?) That would set up this relative sequence which would at least make sense: (a) Minutemen involvement; (b) Aug 1963 trip to Texas/La. to visit Walker; (c) military service; (d) becomes pacifist and exits both military and Minutemen; (e) meets Weisberg and Schoener and gives film. 

With that reconstruction your John T. Martin, the son of the Swedish Lutheran pastor family, would work chronologically provided the 17 years of age Minutemen card could reflect 1961 as you suggest (no need to propose typos or intentional giving of wrong age).

Greg, you scooped me. I was going to contact Mr. Fagin as well, but you beat me to it. Anyway, good work on the confirmation. Your honesty is noteworthy and refreshing (I wish others would follow your example).

Regarding John T. Martin, it's possible that he may have been in the service post 1963. I haven't put in any effort to check that out. 

[Joseph Borelli]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:52 PM, Rob Clark said:

It's kind of a running joke on our Quick Hits podcast how many variations of the J first name and Martin surname associated within the assassination milieu...

These are top of mind...I think there are 4 more we found

 

John Martin Jr. - Took film in Dealey Plaza                                                         John Martino - CIA asset, Castro prisoner, helped Anti-Castro causes

John Martin Sr. - Father, worked at Postal Annex                                               Jean Martin - Pierre LaFitte's (Coup in Dallas) CIA pseudonym in New Orleans

John T Martin - Took Film, Walker house & New Orleans Oswald arrest           Jack Martin - Alias Ed Suggs, Banister associate

James Martin - Manager Six Flags, brought Marina home with him                 Jim Martin - Attorney at meeting at Ruby's house night of 11/24/63

Jim Martin - Department 03 of CIA                                                                      Johnny Martin - Dating Serita Odio

Hah Yes we have a running list of over a dozen J Martins now I believe. A few of these martins seem to pop in at the perfect time to complete a certain task and then disappear. Some are real people with documented ancestry.

Since this thread is about John Martin, I’ll share a document about another Johnny Martin I found. This character hooked up with Silvio Odio’s sister Serita, ran a coin operated laundry store in Dallas “and came out of nowhere” my favorite quote haha and then randomly offered the Odio sisters arms for the fight against Castro. You really can’t make this stuff up. And if you really want to go into a 🐇 🕳️ look up Marina’s “agent” James Herbert Martin who testified to the WC, knew Ruby and cashed in so much $$$ by representing Marina and helping her with “overseas book deals”. This guy JH Martin literally worked at the six flags motel but had all these international contacts? The fu€kery is off the charts when it comes to J Martins associated with the assassination. 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Joseph Borelli