Missing LBJ-McGeorge Bundy Conversations?

[Benjamin Cole]

https://wallstreetwindow.com/2023/03/the-mystery-of-the-missing-jfk-assassination-related-lbj-presidential-tapes-the-first-72-hours-mike-swanson/

Interesting article, wanders a little, on missing conversations (that at one time may have been recorded) between LBJ and McGeorge Bundy, the National Security Advisor under JFK and then LBJ. Bundy was a big Vietnam hawk. 

The Madeleine Brown story (a purported mistress of LBJ’s), that there was at an “assassination party” at oil baron Clint Murchinson’s Dallas home the night before the assassination appears to be baseless, at least LBJ's presence there, based in LBJ's work-diary. 

Another unsettling aspect of the JFKA is the number of records researchers say cannot be found. 

[Larry Hancock]

I was just on Chuck Ochelli's show with Mike and discussing his new finds, you will find a few related comments on my most recent blog post:

https://wordpress.com/post/larryhancock.wordpress.com/1758

 

[Paul Brancato]

26 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

I was just on Chuck Ochelli's show with Mike and discussing his new finds, you will find a few related comments on my most recent blog post:

https://wordpress.com/post/larryhancock.wordpress.com/1758

 

This is really interesting. Surely those missing tapes of conversations represent a serious breach. What was discussed in those phone calls with Bundy? Why is it secret? As you mention in your commentary Larry, not only was Hoover concerned with CIA obfuscation concerning Oswald in Mexico, he was also concerned with CIA not being forthcoming about French espionage activities. What do you make of that? The context is striking. I’m reminded of the famous George Bush of the CIA Hoover memo, which always struck me as Hoover letting CIA know that he knew enough to bring them down. This is more than just miscommunication between FBI and CIA, or warring turf battles. 

[Larry Hancock]

I did go into this in considerable detail in SWHT/2010 Paul, but as Mike shows we have even more indication of what was going on behind closed doors now.  What is clear - to me at least - is that as early as Friday/Saturday there were very positive signs of conspiracy including reports of unknown parties impersonating Oswald and/or being in contact with him - enough so to trouble a lot of people.  There were also ongoing signs that JFK had been known to be at some level of risk (and he and RFK both knew it).  The first suspects were either the anti-Castro or pro-Castro elements (hence the suppressed CIA investigation), or elements within the CIA itself - we see that in RFK's early calls on Friday which covered both sets of suspects. Multiple shooters were even clear in the first set of story boards made from the Z film, which were shown on Saturday/Sunday and which had to be replaced to show the new lone nut story line which emerged on Sunday due to fears of what a real investigation might show.

What the "missing" verbal pieces cover as far as I an tell is the immediate fear and verbal discussion of what would emerge in a full and open conspiracy investigation - either domestically as it related to the CIA or internationally as it might go back to Cuba/Russia. The urgency of aborting either is shown in the many holes we find as well as in Johnson's direct intervention including his push back against Hoover putting anything in the FBI report about links to Castro or Cuba, which Hoover continued to promote internally for some days.  Hoover's frustration shows up in his note about not trusting the CIA because Hoover had became aware that CIA had lied and even managed to have their Mexican security contacts feed FBI misinformation about what had gone on in Mexico City - but had been made quite aware by Johnson that there is going to be no objection to the lone nut story.

Its likely Hoover was also upset because the FBI had been sucked into a lot of work to totally (and quickly deconstruct) the purported meeting between Oswald and Cuban agents in the MC embassy which Phillips and the MC CIA station had supported and which did concern DC for a time after the first three days. But Hoover had been brought into line and once he understood the lone nut story line was not to be questioned he was savvy enough to play ball with Johnson.  In earlier days it was not uncommon to talk to FBI guys who were quite open about being told what to investigate and what to avoid - if it pointed to Oswald's guilt go for it, if it included others you find yourself exiled like Hosty.

The holes in the information basically show us that at the highest level the decision was made that an investigation was way too dangerous - but that decision occurred after a good deal of the evidence and a number of key leads had already gone into place during the first two days - which made it difficult and clumsy to go back and take those out of the official picture.  If this had all been planned in advance we would have seen the significant number of loose ends emerge from the decades of research, especially from the work of the ARRB.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Larry Hancock

[Benjamin Cole]

42 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

I did go into this in considerable detail in SWHT/2010 Paul, but as Mike shows we have even more indication of what was going on behind closed doors now.  What is clear - to me at least - is that as early as Friday/Saturday there were very positive signs of conspiracy including reports of unknown parties impersonating Oswald and/or being in contact with him - enough so to trouble a lot of people.  There were also ongoing signs that JFK had been known to be at some level of risk (and he and RFK both knew it).  The first suspects were either the anti-Castro or pro-Castro elements (hence the suppressed CIA investigation), or elements within the CIA itself - we see that in RFK's early calls on Friday which covered both sets of suspects. Multiple shooters were even clear in the first set of story boards made from the Z film, which were shown on Saturday/Sunday and which had to be replaced to show the new lone nut story line which emerged on Sunday due to fears of what a real investigation might show.

What the "missing" verbal pieces cover as far as I an tell is the immediate fear and verbal discussion of what would emerge in a full and open conspiracy investigation - either domestically as it related to the CIA or internationally as it might go back to Cuba/Russia. The urgency of aborting either is shown in the many holes we find as well as in Johnson's direct intervention including his push back against Hoover putting anything in the FBI report about links to Castro or Cuba, which Hoover continued to promote internally for some days.  Hoover's frustration shows up in his note about not trusting the CIA because Hoover had became aware that CIA had lied and even managed to have their Mexican security contacts feed FBI misinformation about what had gone on in Mexico City - but had been made quite aware by Johnson that there is going to be no objection to the lone nut story.  In earlier days it was not uncommon to talk to FBI guys who were quite open about being told what to investigate and what to avoid - if it pointed to Oswald's guilt go for it, if it included others you find yourself exiled like Hosty.

The holes in the information basically show us that at the highest level the decision was made that an investigation was way too dangerous - but that decision occurred after a good deal of the evidence and a number of key leads had already gone into place during the first two days - which made it difficult and clumsy to go back and take those out of the official picture.  If this had all been planned in advance we would have seen the significant number of loose ends emerge from the decades of research, especially from the work of the ARRB.

Always great to hear from Larry Hancock. 

That's my layman's read on the first 48 hours also. The "lone nut" angle was settled on, blatantly and obviously before a conspiracy could even be investigated, and while LHO was already dead. 

If the JFKA had been the work of simple thugs or racists---political outsiders, sociopaths---the lot would have been rounded up and prosecuted. 

That means if there was a JFKA conspiracy, it was one that had to be buried, for expedient reasons. In other words, the JFKA conspiracy had links back to institutions. 

Heightening suspicions are Biden's deep-sixing of the JFKA records in perpetuity, unless the MFF can prevail. 

 

 

 

 

 

[David Boylan]

Speaking of the first 72 hours, I would love to see the minutes/notes of this meeting on 11/23 with LBJ and the JCS discussing Cuba.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1235#relPageId=1

Speaking of the JCS. Here's the Projection of US Military strength in RVN from August 30, 1963, to the end of the year. Withdrawal of 276 in November and 724 in December.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=107#relPageId=2

 

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Speaking of the first 72 hours, I would love to see the minutes/notes of this meeting on 11/23 with LBJ and the JCS discussing Cuba.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1235#relPageId=1

Speaking of the JCS. Here's the Projection of US Military strength in RVN from August 30, 1963, to the end of the year. Withdrawal of 276 in November and 724 in December.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=107#relPageId=2

 

Another interesting unreleased document. I’d like to see those minutes too. 

[Paul Brancato]

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I did go into this in considerable detail in SWHT/2010 Paul, but as Mike shows we have even more indication of what was going on behind closed doors now.  What is clear - to me at least - is that as early as Friday/Saturday there were very positive signs of conspiracy including reports of unknown parties impersonating Oswald and/or being in contact with him - enough so to trouble a lot of people.  There were also ongoing signs that JFK had been known to be at some level of risk (and he and RFK both knew it).  The first suspects were either the anti-Castro or pro-Castro elements (hence the suppressed CIA investigation), or elements within the CIA itself - we see that in RFK's early calls on Friday which covered both sets of suspects. Multiple shooters were even clear in the first set of story boards made from the Z film, which were shown on Saturday/Sunday and which had to be replaced to show the new lone nut story line which emerged on Sunday due to fears of what a real investigation might show.

What the "missing" verbal pieces cover as far as I an tell is the immediate fear and verbal discussion of what would emerge in a full and open conspiracy investigation - either domestically as it related to the CIA or internationally as it might go back to Cuba/Russia. The urgency of aborting either is shown in the many holes we find as well as in Johnson's direct intervention including his push back against Hoover putting anything in the FBI report about links to Castro or Cuba, which Hoover continued to promote internally for some days.  Hoover's frustration shows up in his note about not trusting the CIA because Hoover had became aware that CIA had lied and even managed to have their Mexican security contacts feed FBI misinformation about what had gone on in Mexico City - but had been made quite aware by Johnson that there is going to be no objection to the lone nut story.

Its likely Hoover was also upset because the FBI had been sucked into a lot of work to totally (and quickly deconstruct) the purported meeting between Oswald and Cuban agents in the MC embassy which Phillips and the MC CIA station had supported and which did concern DC for a time after the first three days. But Hoover had been brought into line and once he understood the lone nut story line was not to be questioned he was savvy enough to play ball with Johnson.  In earlier days it was not uncommon to talk to FBI guys who were quite open about being told what to investigate and what to avoid - if it pointed to Oswald's guilt go for it, if it included others you find yourself exiled like Hosty.

The holes in the information basically show us that at the highest level the decision was made that an investigation was way too dangerous - but that decision occurred after a good deal of the evidence and a number of key leads had already gone into place during the first two days - which made it difficult and clumsy to go back and take those out of the official picture.  If this had all been planned in advance we would have seen the significant number of loose ends emerge from the decades of research, especially from the work of the ARRB.

Multiple shooters clear in the first storyboards of the Z film - wow that’s a bombshell. Where are they? I have most of your books. Did I miss that?

[Roger Odisio]

47 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Multiple shooters clear in the first storyboards of the Z film - wow that’s a bombshell. Where are they? I have most of your books. Did I miss that?

From Theodore White's The Making of the Presidency 1964, as discussed by Salandria in '71,  https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/FalseMystery/Original-ModelOfExplanation.pdf McGeorge Bundy was running the White House situation room that afternoon, from which a message was sent to Air Force 1 coming back from Dallas, that the lone assassin was caught; there was no conspiracy. Something neither Bundy nor anyone else could have known at the time, unless he was part of the plan, or at the least involved in the coverup, of which that statement was an opening salvo.  At that time back in Dallas, DA Henry Wade was saying:  "preliminary reports indicated more than one person was involved in the shooting".  Salandria translates Bundy's message to those who were there as, forget what you think you saw.  The murder has been officially solved.  Don't interfere.

Salandria also says that according to Jim Bishop, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, LBJ was calling Bundy "every few minutes" that day on the plane back from Dallas.

In that context any missing tapes of LBJ's conversation that weekend with Bundy are clearly important.

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, the storyboard timeline and details are in SWHT (paperback edition)  in the Chapter on the first 72 hours....Chapter 15.  This comes from interviews and tapes with NPIC staff related to their handling of the film - twice, the second time intentionally compartmentalized from the staff member who did the first set of story boards.  His opinion was that the film quite clearly showed concurrent shots and multiple shooters but of course he was only there to pull frames and make the storyboard to go to the people who were given the first shooting scenario (a showing on no record).  That was on Saturday; Sunday a film was returned and more storyboards were made ....that became the official single shooter presentation.  Interestingly the original boards were stashed in a closet and brought out during the HSCA when staff thought they should be forwarded to the committee - when sr. mgt at NPIC was notified they immediately ordered them destroyed.  The second set are what went to NARA and constitute the official record.

This link gives further details:

https://forums.livescience.com/threads/senior-cia-officer-dino-brugiono-worked-on-original-film-of-jfk-assassination-confirmed-editing-of-fatal-shot-why-no-media-report.5170/

 

You can find a report done by NPIC much later but if you take a look its filled with conditional statements and lots of numbers, as I recall it didn't state much definitively.  So my referece was to what happened at NARA over the weekend and the personal recollections of the senior man at NPIC who viwed the film on Saturday.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Larry Hancock

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Multiple shooters clear in the first storyboards of the Z film - wow that’s a bombshell. Where are they? I have most of your books. Did I miss that?

The multiple shooters angle is in hindsight. Those studying the Z-film originally placed the shots too close together to have been fired by the M/C rifle. They then switched it around, and even pretended the head shot occurred well down the street from where it is depicted in the films. Some take from this that the SS and FBI were telling the truth, and that the films were changed. But this is quite a stretch. The reality is clear, IMO, that the SS and FBI both fibbed about the location of the head shot, so as to give "Oswald" enough time to shoot Connally in between two shots fired on Kennedy. 

This is discussed in great detail in Chapter 2b of my website. 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Pat, just to be clear the remarks about multiple shooters I referred to were not in hindsight, they were simply the impression of the senior NPIC analyst who saw the film projected in real time on Saturday night.  He also happened to be a skilled shooter and marksman - but his comments were not based on any detailed study, they were his impression from seeing the film run and rerun at the time and he was adamant about what he saw. 

He had no idea who else might have seen that film, he simply helped make story boards from the individual frames specified by the people who had brought the film. He made remarks to them; he was not asked for his technical or professional opinion.

He was also adamant that when he later saw the official version of the film (he was not there to see the film that was projected to select frames for the  story boards made on Sunday night) it did not appear to be of the same clarity and detail as what he had originally seen...his remarks are in the link I provided in my earlier post.

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

From Theodore White's The Making of the Presidency 1964, as discussed by Salandria in '71,  https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/FalseMystery/Original-ModelOfExplanation.pdf McGeorge Bundy was running the White House situation room that afternoon, from which a message was sent to Air Force 1 coming back from Dallas, that the lone assassin was caught; there was no conspiracy. Something neither Bundy nor anyone else could have known at the time, unless he was part of the plan, or at the least involved in the coverup, of which that statement was an opening salvo.  At that time back in Dallas, DA Henry Wade was saying:  "preliminary reports indicated more than one person was involved in the shooting".  Salandria translates Bundy's message to those who were there as, forget what you think you saw.  The murder has been officially solved.  Don't interfere.

Salandria also says that according to Jim Bishop, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, LBJ was calling Bundy "every few minutes" that day on the plane back from Dallas.

In that context any missing tapes of LBJ's conversation that weekend with Bundy are clearly important.

Salandria influenced my thinking a lot. 

[Paul Brancato]

40 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

The multiple shooters angle is in hindsight. Those studying the Z-film originally placed the shots too close together to have been fired by the M/C rifle. They then switched it around, and even pretended the head shot occurred well down the street from where it is depicted in the films. Some take from this that the SS and FBI were telling the truth, and that the films were changed. But this is quite a stretch. The reality is clear, IMO, that the SS and FBI both fibbed about the location of the head shot, so as to give "Oswald" enough time to shoot Connally in between two shots fired on Kennedy. 

This is discussed in great detail in Chapter 2b of my website. 

 

I like “Oswald” in quotes 

[Paul Brancato]

McGeorge Bundy on his own, calling the plays? I’m thinking out loud here. Hoover is pissed, if not yet then very soon. How could Bundy know that declaring Oswald the lone and unconnected assassin would work? What did Bundy know and when did he know it? It wasn’t Hoover who helped him. Who knew the truth about Oswald, the man they were going to pin everything on? Angleton for sure is one. My guess is that whoever was guiding him left no phone record, but they were referenced in the missing phone tapes, hence the disappearance of those conversations. 
If the story of Oswald as a Soviet or Cuban asset had been pushed forward it would not have stood up later. But was that the reason that Bundy, and LBJ, went lone assassin? Many CIA agents and assets went immediately into high gear, in Miami, in Mexico City, New Orleans with the Communist Oswald story. It’s oft repeated that in order to avoid the likelihood of political pressure being bought to bear on LBJ to attack Cuba or the USSR, Oswald’s Communist credentials were quashed. This ran counter to what most CIA agents had been up to for months. In the shorter term this basic explanation seems to explain the lone assassin scenario put forth and adhered to by everyone pretty much immediately. But over time it’s been weakened considerably. Oswald’s leftist credentials haven’t held up. Yet thousands of documents are still being withheld. Surely this is not the Big Secret. Bundy and the others knew there had been multiple shooters right away. Did they really think they were protecting the nation by not revealing the erstwhile assassin’s connections to Cuba and the USSR? Or were they protecting the real assassins? I don’t think they were in the dark, at least not completely. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Paul Brancato