"Were the Tippit crime scene shell hulls fired from the revolver of Lee Harvey Oswald?"

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

The DPD committed numerious violations of the procedures set forth in the manual of crime scene investigation that was in effect in 1963. Perhaps the most serious violations were not taking photos of shells on the ground where they were located both at the Tippit shooting and on the sixth floor. Fritz picked up the shells before they were photographed. They disturbed the "snipers nest", did not photograph the paper bag and Fritz ejected the unfired shell in the rifle chamber rifle. These "errors" allowed the FBI to paper over the evidence and manufacture the historic record they needed to pin the assassination on Oswald.

In our mock trial, Bill Simpich and I had prepared a long list of evidentiary challenges that we later agreed to drop in the interests of time. But in a real trial, the government would have struggled to support its evidence.      

I know I sound like a broken record...  The Evidence really IS the Conspiracy here.   Not a single solitary item incriminating the man would ever have seen the light of day in a courtroom...  not with Larry and Bill defending the man...  or Lane or Perry Mason for that matter.

[Greg Doudna]

53 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Ok... so Oswald did not kill Tippit; on this we agree.  Which in turn creates a domino effect related to the evidence of his doing it with the pistol they claimed was his.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf. This explains my pov better than anything I can write here.

And speaking of Tippit... what is your explanation for the disappearing wallet and ID attributed to a wallet found in Irving that day?

From where Brewer's store was, seeing anyone do anything at the theater would be extremely difficult...  and of course there is the Tommy Rowe and IBM dudes aspect to that story.  

Help me understand what you mean though.  A number of DPD reports call out an arrest of someone in the balcony... do you suppose that was the man taken out the back in front of Haire, yet disappears?

Oswald not arrested in the balcony, reports saying that just wrong, the place crawling with people and witnesses and nobody witnessed an arrest in the balcony, therefore didn’t happen. All witnesses, no exceptions, saw Oswald arrested on the ground floor. Haire probably saw witness Applin being taken downtown. Tommy Rowe never happened his claims were bs and not credible. The wallet in the film footage with tippit’s pistol in an officers hand was probably Callaway’s wallet. The story it was an Oswald wallet was not even first voiced until years later by Barrett and just isn’t reliable to have confidence in. I know a lot of people are attached to an Oswald wallet at the tippit scene but I regard it as just CT urban legend (of which there are too many). 

[David Josephs]

32 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Oswald not arrested in the balcony, reports saying that just wrong, the place crawling with people and witnesses and nobody witnessed an arrest in the balcony, therefore didn’t happen. All witnesses, no exceptions, saw Oswald arrested on the ground floor. Haire probably saw witness Applin being taken downtown. Tommy Rowe never happened his claims were bs and not credible. The wallet in the film footage with tippit’s pistol in an officers hand was probably Callaway’s wallet. The story it was an Oswald wallet was not even first voiced until years later by Barrett and just isn’t reliable to have confidence in. I know a lot of people are attached to an Oswald wallet at the tippit scene but I regard it as just CT urban legend (of which there are too many). 

Must be nice not to be concerned with things like facts when forming opinions...  seems to be the way it works today but I simply need more than "because I say so" before I form an opinion.

If the HIDELL ID did not come from there and instead from the arrest wallet Bentley pulled out in the car...  where is that wallet in evidence?

edit: and again, why are the contents of the wallets different for CLEMENTS and BOOKOUT 2 days apart with the addition of HIDELL's Cert of Service into the wallet contents?

And why is this photo, found in his wallet in Irving, not part of the inventory of the wallet contents?

The three photos listed below are of a baby, Marina and Oswald in his uniform.   Y'know, just wondering

Edited May 5, 2023 by David Josephs

[Greg Doudna]

8 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Must be nice not to be concerned with things like facts when forming opinions...  seems to be the way it works today but I simply need more than "because I say so" before I form an opinion.

If the HIDELL ID did not come from there and instead from the arrest wallet Bentley pulled out in the car...  where is that wallet in evidence?

edit: and again, why are the contents of the wallets different for CLEMENTS and BOOKOUT 2 days apart with the addition of HIDELL's Cert of Service into the wallet contents?

And why is this photo, found in his wallet in Irving, not part of the inventory of the wallet contents?

The three photos listed below are of a baby, Marina and Oswald in his uniform.   Y'know, just wondering

I was only commenting on the tippit scene wallet story. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I was only commenting on the tippit scene wallet story. 

I've been talking about the 5 wallets now for a while.  Only recently found the 5th studded wallet photo.

There was nothing in the 2 wallets found in Irving except that Marine group photo.
If the Tippit wallet did not exist despite Croy stating otherwise in an image given to Barrett for his retirement, this only leaves the Arrest wallet to account for all 16+ items of wallet evidence including 2 pieces of HIDELL ID.

Tippit's murder does not exist on an island Greg... all these things are connected.

BARRETT was actually interviewed and claimed the ARREST WALLET was the fabrication as he had seen the Tippit wallet himself as well as the ID in it.

Be that as it may...  where did the DPD get the HIDELL identification and why, on Nov 22nd does CLEMENTS describe the one Hidell item as a "photo of the SSS card" with the name Hidell but the photo of Oswald - yet BOOKOUT's list of photos of the evidence has a different assortment as well as now his #13, the HIDELL ID without his photo?

 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Greg- firearms examination is highly subjective. no minimum number of matches required with no regard to the width and depth of the toolmarks. Inconclusives are discounted in many tests which dramatically distorts the accuracy rate. The studies performed by ASFE were not properly designed from a statistical standpoint amd simply intended to  their profession. garbage to support junk science. Iregularly attend programs by CSAFE and the Center for Integrity for Forensic Science. they have lots of good material on its website. 

Given the subjectivity, it is quite likely that the FBI gave the WC the testimony it needed to match the bullets to Oswald's weapons since there was not going to be a trial. And the HSCA committee was comprised of experts who worked for labs that had government funding. no way any lab employee was going to disagree with the prior conclusions.

Indeed, when they could not match the bullets fired from the the alleged assassination in 1978 against those fired in 1964, they came up with a lame excuse that the rust and hundred or so firings of the rifle in 1964 changed its toolmarks. There have been studies that have shown firing thousands of rounds have not changed the toolmarks. We had Cliff Spiegelman testify on this issue in the 2017 mock trial. I also asked raised this issue at a recent CSAFE conference and got the same answer.           

I’m having a little difficulty thinking that someone like Cunningham would perjure himself, cook scientific reporting falsely—a very serious, career-wrecking thing if ever found out, let alone criminal jeopardy—just because asked. All the HSCA firearms panel willing to not be honest with their testimony and findings? Just because fearful of losing funding or herdthink? I’m having plausibility issues with this line of thinking. 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Greg- its not only not perjury but the exact opposite potential effect on a career that you suppose. Being invited to serve on a distibguished panel can be extremely lucrative for the expert and their employer. To the contrary, reaching a conclusion that the bullets did not match would have enormous negative career consequences and could cause the lab to lose funding or not have their grant applications approved. 

Ballistics and firearms examination is a subjective opinion. Ever hear of the battle of experts? Happens all the time in lawsuits. There are plaintiffs experts and defendants experts. Often times, you only have to know their name and will know how they will testify. Experts are selected because they will provide the testimony sought. In a trial, the fact that an expert happens to testify on behalf of defendants can be brought up during cross-examination to try to undermine his credibility. But I have never heard of an expert witness being prosecuted for perjury.    

The experts that were selected for the HSCA panels, the DOJ panel that review the acoustics evidence and even the 1968 Clark Panel were all insiders. They are part of a club. They were at risk of severe career damage if they interpreted the evidence contrary to the WC. Indeed, they were picked for these panels because they were reliable reviewers. These panels like many government commissions are not objective and are populated to achieve a certain pre-ordained outcome. Just like many judges.

Dr. Wecht was the exception that proved the rule but he had to be picked because of his standing. But once on the HSCA medical board, he was isolated and not assigned to key subcommittees. He was not invited to attend certain meetings with the Bethesda doctors and did not participate in the report prepared by that subcommittee. Read his dissent. Or ask Gary Aguilar about how these panels were selected.  

You can call me cynical but the more accurate term would be realistic. I have worked closely with legislatures and allegedly independent commissions, and seen how they've worked from the inside.        

[Greg Doudna]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:00 PM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Indeed, when they could not match the bullets fired from the the alleged assassination in 1978 against those fired in 1964, they came up with a lame excuse that the rust and hundred or so firings of the rifle in 1964 changed its toolmarks. There have been studies that have shown firing thousands of rounds have not changed the toolmarks. We had Cliff Spiegelman testify on this issue in the 2017 mock trial. I also asked raised this issue at a recent CSAFE conference and got the same answer.           

Larry — on this particular point could you comment further, not on establishing the implausibility of tool markings changing as an explanation, but as to solution or suggested solution of what actually is or could be the true explanation on that. Two sets of test bullets from the same firearm and they don’t match??

Edited May 6, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Norman T. Field]

15 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Do you have a better explanation?

Yeah, Tippit was shot with an semi - automatic pistol, not a revolver. 

[Greg Doudna]

13 minutes ago, Norman T. Field said:

Yeah, Tippit was shot with an semi - automatic pistol, not a revolver. 

If that were true, why were no hulls found at the car where the shooting occurred, and instead found in Barbara and Virginia Davis's front yard?  

Are you suggesting someone collected all the automatic hulls from at the car, and then surreptitiously re-planted all those hulls fired, to the Davis sisters-in-law yard? 

If it was an automatic, who would care and why would anyone bother with surreptitiously moving them away from the location of the car where they would have been fired and ejected, after the killer fled, to be found two houses away (still labeled "automatic" or totally different replanted hulls?)? For what point?

I think Myers has done a pretty good analysis of what the witnesses saw the gunman doing fiddling with the gun in hand as being unloading and reloading a manual, not an automatic. And also debunking the idea that Gerald Hill's initial report that the hulls found in the Davises' yard were automatics was from Hill reading "auto" on hulls (the same hulls you think were supposedly re-planted so nobody would notice they were automatics even though still labeled as such?) 

I think the murder weapon of Tippit was the so-called paper-bag revolver that Dallas Police had that weekend then disappeared it, which was a snub-nosed .38 Smith & Wesson revolver, which the FBI found probably was part of an allotment of those revolvers which had been rechambered in England to fire the slightly smaller but superior .38 Special bullets of the kind that killed Tippit (according to the autopsy).

[Greg Doudna]

Here is why I think the paper-bag revolver found by a citizen at 7:30 am Sat Nov 23, 1963 near a curb at Ross and Lamar in downtown Dallas (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/weberman/tfdrev.htm) was the murder weapon of Tippit.

Because: a handgun tossed in a paper bag on a city street in the middle of a night is a disposal of a weapon that has been used in a murder--and from the fruit, presumably not yet decayed, and the busy traffic location of the street, it was recent. The perpetrator does not want that weapon found on his person or in his belongings or in association with him which is why it is ditched. And the only recent murder by handgun in the entire Dallas area was the Tippit killing hours earlier. q.e.d.

Because: it is the same kind or caliber of handgun that killed Tippit, .38 Smith & Wesson rechambered to fire .38 Special bullets.

Because: the killer of Tippit came from the direction of Jack Ruby's apartment; the killer of Tippit called Tippit over (not vice versa); the killer of Tippit was a skilled shooter, hitting Tippit intentionally in the head (right temple) from across the front hood of the car; the killer of Tippit had a physical description resembling Oswald; the killer of Tippit sought to kill Oswald next in the theater after Tippit. i.e. the killer of Tippit (I say) looks like Curtis Craford employed by the man demonstrably intent on killing Oswald who two days later did; of known lookalike witness mistaken identifications for Oswald; skilled shooter with a handgun; and (according to Peter Whitmey years later who found him and interviewed him) self-confessed hitman in those days.

And, who left Dallas within hours of the Tippit killing, just after somebody (maybe he himself) had ditched the paper-bag revolver where it was found.

On the night of Nov 21-22, Craford was seen by Mary Lawrence at a restaurant near the Vegas Club with Ruby in the early morning hours of Nov 22. She thought it was Oswald with Ruby but it was clearly Craford. Ruby would have been Craford's ride home that night. (Craford did not have a car.) Ruby said he had employees over to his apartment occasionally. Suppose Ruby brought Craford home with him that night instead of to the Carousel Club, after Ruby and Craford left the restaurant where Mary Lawrence saw them. Ruby's housemate George Senator is sleeping when they get in. George Senator said he left the next morning (Ruby still sleeping in his room) and Senator did not return to the apartment until late Fri night. After Ruby left the apartment some time later that morning, Craford would remain alone in Ruby's apartment. From there he could easily walk to the location where Tippit was killed, as the gunman in fact was seen walking there from the direction of Ruby's apartment.

Now back to the paper-bag revolver. There is a strange but true story, told in detail in the Warren Commission testimonies of George Senator and Craford, of Ruby intent on photographing a billboard in the dead of night in the early morning hours of Sat Nov 23. First he woke up George Senator at 3 am, wanting him to go to with him on the excursion to photograph a billboard. Then Ruby called Craford at the Carousel Club, also to go photograph a billboard, and Ruby and Senator picked up Craford at the Carousel Club at about 4 in the morning. George Senator tells of this in his Warren Commission testimony, also Craford told of it in his testimony too and earlier to the FBI.

The location of that billboard is known, at a freeway and Hall, southeast of the Carousel Club. But to get there most conveniently from the Carousel Club by freeway would be by getting on the Stemmons Freeway going south, then freeway east to the billboard location. That is, from the Carousel Club one would drive either west or northwest to get on the nearby Stemmons Freeway (then headed south on the Stemmons), in order to get to a location far to the southeast of the Carousel Club. 

And that driving reconstruction is not simply logical, it is confirmed by Craford who told the FBI when they caught up with him in Michigan a week later. Craford told the FBI about the nocturnal billboard-photographing expedition of Ruby. Craford said Ruby drove on the Stemmons Freeway.

Well now one can look at a map of downtown Dallas. Ruby, George Senator, and Craford are starting from the pickup of Craford at the Carousel Club at 1311-1/2 Commerce. This is about 4 am starting out, of a trip that eventually ended with Craford being returned to the Carousel Club around 5:30 am.

Lamar and Ross, the location of the paper-bag, is about 0.4 miles, about 6 blocks, northwest of the Carousel Club.

How does one get on the Stemmons Freeway from the Carousel Club? There are two possibilities: one going west on Commerce through Dealey Plaza. The other one goes west on Commerce to Lamar, turn north on Lamar and it goes north and then winds west, goes under the Stemmons and on the other side one turns left on the onramp going south on the Stemmons. It is a direct shot on Lamar, very conveniently done on the map.

About midway there on that direct route to the Stemmons Freeway from the Carousel Club going north on Lamar, is the location where the paper-bag revolver was found, Lamar and Ross. Ross is a cross street that Ruby's car driving north on Lamar would go through. It is about 40% of the way on Lamar between turning north on Lamar from Commerce, and Lamar's arrival at the southbound entrance to the Stemmons Freeway.

Ruby did not return Craford to the Carousel Club by the Stemmons Freeway, the same way he had gone. (After photographing the billboard Ruby drove Senator and Craford to a coffee shop and a post office then Craford to the Carousel Club.) 

So Ruby's car with two passengers, one of whom is a confessed hitman riding in the back seat alone who will within hours leave Dallas hitchhiking to Michigan, the other, George Senator in the front seat (these were the seating positions in the car according to George Senator), drive by--at 4 am--the exact spot where the paper-bag revolver was found at 7:30 am that morning.

That paper-bag revolver could have been tossed out a window of Ruby's car, by a passenger in Ruby's car. 

The apple and the orange in the bag with the revolver would make a good alibi or reason to be carrying the paper bag, especially if there were others in the car one did not want to know one was tossing a revolver out the window. The apple and the orange could be in the paper bag, and the revolver not put in the paper bag until the last minute (in the back seat of the car with no one noticing). The apple and the orange would be the reason one would have for having the paper bag before that moment.

After ditching the Tippit murder weapon, Craford then left Dallas that morning, having disposed of the murder weapon before he left.

It may have been a fluke that the revolver in the paper bag revolver was found at all. If no one had looked inside the paper bag it could have been swept up by street cleaners and the revolver never noticed. But if the revolver was found, so long as it wasn't traceable to the perpetrator no harm done if it was found, from the point of view of the perpetrator.

The Dallas Police had that revolver on Sat morning Nov 23, 1963, even though the press and the world never knew it (nor did the Warren Commission, or any researchers until decades later with FBI document releases). Paul Hoch discovered by accident only in the 1990s the FBI document which told of the Lamar and Ross find-spot of the revolver.

The FBI knew of that revolver by no later than Monday Nov 25, 1963 (the date on the FBI document Paul Hoch found) likely because the Dallas Police may have asked the FBI Dallas office to run a check on the serial number. 

But that revolver itself, and all Dallas Police paperwork on it, disappeared, since no trace of it in Dallas Police records has ever been found since. Either there was physical destruction of paperwork, or it was filed somewhere else where it would never be discovered or known again. What became of that revolver and its whereabouts are unknown.

The suspect in the Tippit killing can be placed in a car driven by Jack Ruby at the very location where the paper-bag revolver was found that morning, in the middle of that night, at about 4 am. Means and opportunity for that revolver, the murder weapon in the Tippit killing, to have been tossed from a passenger in Jack Ruby's car as it drove through that intersection.

This is why I think that was the murder weapon of Tippit, and Oswald's revolver was not, even though Oswald had a revolver on him of the same kind when he was arrested. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

This is why I think that was the murder weapon of Tippit, and Oswald's revolver was not, even though Oswald had a revolver on him of the same kind when he was arrested.

 

EDIT: kinda confused here Greg...  you started this thread less than a year ago...  why start anew when we need to expand on what you started?

Maybe because Allen LOWE challenged you as I am here?  His point was facts alone do not make a hypothesis true. Context and connection within those facts helps a lot.  As I mention below... I'd like to find if there is anything more...  If there was nothing new to post in this last 10 months on the subject, maybe we can find some, or just say thank you for a nicely constructed hypothesis.

 

Using the footnotes from the linked article to search for the docs themselves I find this mention of it and the below link to what appears to be these documents reproduced in their entirety.  The Tippit murder is near and dear to the work I do with John A so we are always interested in hearing and investigating items related.

I try to stay away from conclusions not supported by evidence.. hypotheses are great yet they are only the beginning of the journey, not statements of fact until they proven in context.  From my reading of the above, I fail to see how this pistol in a bag is being connected to Ruby and Craford beyond the circumstantial offerings.

FWIW Craford had no teeth yet did indeed bear a resemblance to Ozzie from certain angles.

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

After ditching the Tippit murder weapon, Craford then left Dallas that morning, having disposed of the murder weapon before he left.

 

Again Greg, a great hypothesis but little is offered to support it... what people "could" have done is not the same as what they actually did.  Dallas was not some podunk town but a huge city with more than 1 crime perpetrated between 11/22 and 11/24. 

I think your hypothesis is a solid one and I'd like to take some time and dig into it, if you'll bear with me as I do so and will get back to you.  I'd love to find the connecting pieces in support of this find.  Stay tuned.

 

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/thread-11238.html

Anthony Summers, author of Conspiracy, analyzed an FBI report that detailed the finding of a snub-nose .38 calibre pistol in the Dealey Plaza area. "Just when you think the story holds no more factual surprises, it tends to produce one. We now have an FBI report revealing that, at 7:30 on the morning after the assassination, 'A SNUB NOSE THIRTY-EIGHT CALIBER SMITH AND WESSON, SERIAL NUMBER EIGHT NINE THREE TWO SIX FIVE, WITH THE WORD QUOTE ENGLAND UNQUOTE ON THE CYLINDER WAS FOUND...IN A BROWN PAPER SACK IN THE GENERAL AREA OF WHERE THE ASSASSINATION TOOK PLACE.'
So a revolver was found near the Book Depository-- 'IN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY,' according to other FBI reports. In spite of repeated Freedom of Information requests by California researcher Bill Adams, the FBI has not revealed how its investigation of the gun was concluded. Whether or not the weapon has any significance, it is a scandal that the public had to wait 30 years to learn that a second gun was found at the scene of the crime." [97] 
An FBI report (62-109060-638) dated November 29, 1963, marked URGENT, sent to Director and SACS, Dallas, Springfield and Boston reads in part: "BOSTON ADVISED RECORDS OF SMITH AND WESSON INC., SPRINGFIELD, MASS.SHOW THIRTY EIGHT CALIBER REVOLVER, SN EIGHT NINE THREE TWO SIX FIVE WAS SHIPPED JANUARY THIRTEEN, NINETEEN FORTY TWO TO US GOVERNMENT, HARTFORD ORDNANCE ... FOR INFO SPRINGFIELD INSTANT WEAPON FOUND IN PAPER BAG IN IMMEDIATE VICINITY OF ASSASSINATION AREA ... SPRINGFIELD CONTACT ROCK ISLAND ARSENAL RE FURTHER TRACING OF WEAPON." Clearly some kind of investigation began at the end of November 1963 concerning this handgun.
The next day, November 30, 1963, Springfield sent a FBI report (62-109060-858) to "Director and SAC, Dallas" that stated, in part, that "ROCK ISLAND ARSENAL, ROCK ISLAND, ILLINOIS, ADVISED SA ELYON H. DAVIS THERE IS NO RECORD OF SMITH AND WESSON THIRTYEIGHT CALIBER REVOLVER SN 893265 ... COPIES MAILED BOSTON AND PHILADELPHIA." It is clear that the FBI was investigating the history of the revolver, but there is no record as to what the FBI finally concluded about this mysterious weapon.

Bill Adams has recently published information that the revolver may not have been found in the "immediate vicinity" afterall. An FBI document released in 1978 reported that on 11/23/63 "Patrolman J. Raz brought into the Homicide and Robbery bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith and Wesson. SN 893265 . . . had been found near the curb at the corner or Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat ... " [98] This location is several blocks north of Dealey Plaza. However, Adams rightly notes that there are several questions still unanswered about this revolver: Who was Willie Flat and who interviewed him? Where is the revolver now? [99]

http://jfkassassinationindex.blogspot.com/2011/08/h.html

HANDGUN
Smith and Wesson .38 Caliber Weapon, SN V510210 (LHO's gun). Smith and Wesson .38 Caliber revolver, SN 893265 (gun found on Grassy Knoll at 7:30 a.m., 11/23/63). This was an error. Gun was found at Ross and Lamar streets by one Willie Flat. The HSCA test-fired a .38 Caliber pistol from the Grassy Knoll (see HSCA, Vol II, pp. 51, 102, 120).  CD 205, pp. 130-131 (LHO's gun); FBI 62-109060-485, FBI 62-109060-638, FBI 62-109060-857, FBI 62-109060-858 (gun found at 7:30 a.m., 11/23/63 on Grassy Knoll in Dealey Plaza); JFK Collection List, pg. 23 (AMKW 61); FBI 89-43-636

 

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/3miahnPwzwM    (This is where the above reports appear to have been reproduced thanks to B Brown)

On Nov.23,1963 Patrolman J. Raz brought into the Homicide and Robbery
Bureau of the Dallas Police Department a brown paper sack which
contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith and Wesson, Serial number
893265...had been found near the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and
was turned in by one Willie Flat....

Edited May 5, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk.uncensored/c/RKooFwe9vl8 

Raymond

unread,

Feb 21, 2009, 5:51:07 PM
The Paper Bag Revolver

The first shot (a diversionary shot from Jim Braden's . 38 cal pistol into the air) drew the crowd and the authorities away from the building. There are still several questions to be answer regarding the revolver and the FBI investigation.

(DJ: another interesting hypothesis related to the same pistol)

Second Gun or Second Guessing?
The Story of the Revolver in the Paper Bag
By Bill Adams

===

FLAT, WILLIE
On Nov 25, 1963, FBI report of Dallas Patrolman J. Raz bringing into Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Dallas PD, a brown paper sack which contained a snub-nosed .38 caliber Smith & Wesson, Serian # 893265. It has been found near the curb at the corner of Ross and Lamar Streets and was turned in by one Willie Flat. In 1963, there was NO "Flat" in Texas. There was a Willis Earl Flatt, 1023 Mount Auburn Ave., Dallas, TX 75223-1533 (214) 827-0382. In 1963, he was a mechanic at Southwest Coach Company on East Northwest Highway. He is living in same house on Mount Auburn in 1996.
FBI Dallas Field Office SA to FBI Dallas Field Office SAC, 89-43-636

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

The location of that billboard is known, at a freeway and Hall, southeast of the Carousel Club. 

But to get there most conveniently from the Carousel Club by freeway would be by getting on the Stemmons Freeway going south, then freeway east to the billboard location. That is, from the Carousel Club one would drive either west or northwest to get on the nearby Stemmons Freeway (then headed south on the Stemmons), in order to get to a location far to the southeast of the Carousel Club. 

And that driving reconstruction is not simply logical, it is confirmed by Craford who told the FBI when they caught up with him in Michigan a week later. Craford told the FBI about the nocturnal billboard-photographing expedition of Ruby. Craford said Ruby drove on the Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o'clock that he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to get.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's disregard what other people have told you to suggest what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on the telephone.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently started to doze off, to go to sleep.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.
In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. "When he got to the car, George, Ruby's roommate, was also there and they drove out on the Stemmons Freeway." I believe in this testimony here the Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else. I would like to dearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the Central Expressway.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.

Greg, 

Without source citations it is very hard to understand how there'd be so much conflict between what you say he said, and what the record shows he said.  So I found where you got your information in CRAFARD Ex 5226 below.  Yet as we see above, he recants this report by the FBI in this area telling us something completely different.

Your self-confessed hitman associate of Ruby offers information with about as much reliability as James Files.  cause as we both know, the word of a mafia hitmen is gold when it comes to evidence we can hang our hats on...  right?

At no point does STEMMONS and HALL even come close to each other...  so sadly, it appears the hypothesis has some serious hurdles to overcome right out of the gate.

 

 

[David Josephs]

As I read thru the rest of the argument I find wild speculation one after the other as well as simple incorrect information. 

The first shot was not to the head at all but three shots to the stomach, one hitting a button.  The temple shot eerily has virtually the same trajectory as the frontal JFK shot, right to left as it traveled thru...  and as TATUM describes the final shot, it appears to be "execution style" insuring the man is dead with a shot thru the head.

Are you aware that at the time virtually all DPD officers carried a 38 special?  In fact the same exact revolver Oswald is attributed with having was used by virtually all the police departments in the US at the time?  The fact the one in the bag was a .38 special and Tippit was killed with a .38 special, and a police car was seen in the alley perpendicular to Tippit's car at the time of the killing does not ipso facto mean the revolver in the bag had anything to do with the Tippit murder.

And then somehow you offer that Ruby-Senator-Crawfard, or one of them, is the source for this bag being placed/found where it was...  before Crafard skips town. 

Greg, you must be aware that there is a laundry list of suspicious people who "left town" immediately after the assassination, right?

 

BAYLOR UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER
Wednesday, Feb. 1st, 1978.
OFFICE OF PHOTO DEPARTMENT OF HOBIEZELLE HOSPITAL
3500 GASTON AVE, DALLAS, TEXAS.
Investigators Jack Moriarty and Joe Basteri, menders of the Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington., D.C. are in the office of the Director of Photography of the hospital mentioned above, and Mr. JACK RAY TATUM, The Director, has been interviewed with regard to his first hand knowledge, of the Fatal shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit, here in Dallas, Friday, November 22nd, 1963.
Mr. Tatum will reiterate his statement to be reduced to typewritten form
(By Moriarty) "Mr. Tatum, if you'll repeat your statement slowly, I'll attempt to type it."

Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction (East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next, this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street. At that point this young man looked around him and then started to walk away in my direction and as he started to break into a small run in my direction, I sped off in my auto. All I saw him to the intersection and run south on Patton towards Jefferson

 

Mr. BELIN - How many shots did you hear all told? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast. 
Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.

ELBERT AUSTIN, 8317 Fourth Avenue, Dallas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was working on a construction job at the intersection of Tenth and Denver Street, Dallas, Texas. He advised he was a brick mason's helper and was assisting in the construction of an apartment house. Me stated sometime after 1:00 PM he was on a scaffold in front of the aforementioned apartment house when he heard approximately two or three shots

JIMMY EARL BURT, General Delivery stated that on November 22, 1963 he was living at 505 E. 10th Street, Dallas, Texas which is the residence of his father—in—law, DAVID SHAEFER. He and a friend WILLIAM SMITH were sitting in his brother, BILLY BURT's house located at the corner of 9th and Denver Streets, Dallas. It was some time after lunch when they heard two gunshots. He and SMITH immediately ran from the house toward his car, a 1952 two—tone blue Ford which was parked facing south on Denver Street. As they ran from the house they heard four more shots making a total of six.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear at that time? 
Mr. CALLAWAY. I heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots. 
Mr. BALL. Five pistol shots? 
Mr. CALLAWAY. Five shots, yes, sir.

FRANK CIMINO, 403 East Tenth Street, Apartment 7, Dallas, Texas, advised that on November 22, 1963, he was residing in an apartment at 405 East Tenth Street. He Stated that at around 1 p.m. he was at his apartment listening to the radio. He heard four loud noises which sounded like shots and then he heard a women scream
The officer was lying on his side with his head in front of the left front head light of his car. His gun was out of the holster and lying by his side

Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear? 
Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together. (both sisters say the same thing)

Mr. BALL. How many? 
Mr. GUINYARD. I heard three.

FRANCIS KINNETH, 1425 Caidwell, Dallas, Texas, advised he was employed on a construction job at the intersection of Denver and Tenth Street, Dallas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. He advised at approximately 1:00 PM he had heard approximately two or three shots

L. J. LEWIS, 7616 Hums, Pleasant Grove, Texas, advised he is presently self-employed as a wholesale car dealer. LEWIS advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was on the used car lot of Johnny Reynolds Used Cars together with HAROLD RUSSELL and PAT PATTERSON, during which time they heard approximately three or four gun shots coming from the vicinity of Tenth and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr.REYNOLDS. I really have no idea, to be honest with you. I would say four or five or six. I just would have no idea.

Mr. JACK RAY TATUM :  I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.