Leopoldo and Angel

[Paul Trejo]

Silvia Odio told the Warren Commission in 1964 that although she saw "Leopoldo, Angel, and Leon" leave her apartment in a car, she couldn't describe the car. She said that the driver was the tall, thin, 36-year-old looking "Leopoldo" who she said had a very receding hairline at the temples.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=45&relPageId=382

In 1978 Odio allegedly stated in a deposition for the HSCA that she saw the three men get into a red car that was parked in the driveway in front of the apartment. She said she couldn't see who was driving but that "Angel" was sitting in the passenger seat, thereby leaving open the probability that her 1964 testimony that "Leopoldo" was driving was correct.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1212&relPageId=30

Odio's HSCA deposition is known as "Deposition of Silvia Odio, May 2, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 6 (J.F.K. Documents 009088)".

Does anyone know if this deposition is viewable online, or does one have to go to the National Archives to read it?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS If Odio really did say in 1978 that the car was red, there are a couple of plausible reasons why she didn't say that in 1964:

1) She couldn't remember in 1964 but it had "come to her" by 1978 (maybe because her sister told her?)

2) She could remember the color of the car in 1964, but at that time was too afraid to identify the three men more than she already had.

PPS We already know that Tom Dunkin witnessed Loran Hall and Bill Seymour driving a 1950-ish, blue Oldsmobile towing a trailer full of weapons in Glades County, Florida, on October 24th, 1963, and that Hall and Seymour told him they'd driven all night.

Actually, Tommy, I agree that fear was a motive of Silvia Odio, once she realized that the Warren Commission had no intention of protecting her -- and instead would prefer her to withdraw her claims as soon as possible.

Loran Hall said he finally spoke to Jim Garrison in 1968 because of two assassination attempts he personally survived on his own life.

Harry Dean says that Larry Howard told Harry that he wanted to kill Loran Hall, who was a "big mouth."

It seems likely that both Larry Howard and William Seymour tried to kill Loran Hall for putting so much heat on them with regard to the Silvia Odio incident. These were violent men. They had young families to support, and their job was to be mercenary soldiers against Fidel -- at a time when the USA passed Laws (Neutrality Act) to protect Cuba from Raids. They were being pinched, and the last thing they wanted was light and publicity.

It seems to me that insofar as Loran Hall called Silvia Odio out of the blue a few days after the "Odio Incident," then he clearly was able to get her phone number with no problem.

Once it became clear that she was going to talk to the FBI about the two Latinos at her door with Lee Harvey Oswald, it seems likely that both Loran Hall and Larry Howard would call her up and threaten to kill her if she identified them.

This -- to me -- is a viable explanation for the fact that Silvia Odio could identify no photographs the FBI showed her -- but within a couple of days the FBI had Loran Hall in the interview chair.

(By the way, Loran Hall's hair was receding at the temples -- he had lots of hair, but it was beginning to recede at the temples in 1963. We have photographs.)

So, yes, Silvia Odio would be frightened to quickly identify these men, and her memory would be reticent regarding various details, including the car.

Also -- Gaeton Fonzi references Silvia Odio's HSCA deposition (Doc 009088, May 2, 1978) but I've never been able to find an online version -- not even at the Mary Ferrell site.

I wonder if I can scan it in from hardcopy -- I'll look into that.

Finally -- we need to consider the English/Spanish colloquial aspect of Silvia Odio's testimony. There are psychological factors, cultural one-upmanship, and so on, to consider when interviewing somebody whose second language is English. First-language idioms -- even figures of speech -- are often issues in such interviews.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 18, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Silvia Odio told the Warren Commission in 1964 that although she saw "Leopoldo, Angel, and Leon" leave her apartment in a car, she couldn't describe the car. She said that the driver was the tall, thin, 36-year-old looking "Leopoldo" who she said had a very receding hairline at the temples.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=45&relPageId=382

In 1978 Odio allegedly stated in a deposition for the HSCA that she saw the three men get into a red car that was parked in the driveway in front of the apartment. She said she couldn't see who was driving but that "Angel" was sitting in the passenger seat, thereby leaving open the probability that her 1964 testimony that "Leopoldo" was driving was correct.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1212&relPageId=30

Odio's HSCA deposition is known as "Deposition of Silvia Odio, May 2, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 6 (J.F.K. Documents 009088)".

Does anyone know if this deposition is viewable online, or does one have to go to the National Archives to read it?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS If Odio really did say in 1978 that the car was red, there are a couple of plausible reasons why she didn't say that in 1964:

1) She couldn't remember in 1964 but it had "come to her" by 1978 (maybe because her sister told her?)

2) She could remember the color of the car in 1964, but at that time was too afraid to identify the three men more than she already had.

PPS We already know that Tom Dunkin witnessed Loran Hall and Bill Seymour driving a 1950-ish, blue Oldsmobile towing a trailer full of weapons in Glades County, Florida, on October 24th, 1963, and that Hall and Seymour told him they'd driven all night.

Actually, Tommy, I agree that fear was a motive of Silvia Odio, once she realized that the Warren Commission had no intention of protecting her -- and instead would prefer her to withdraw her claims as soon as possible.

Loran Hall said he finally spoke to Jim Garrison in 1968 because of two assassination attempts he personally survived on his own life.

Harry Dean says that Larry Howard told Harry that he wanted to kill Loran Hall, who was a "big mouth."

It seems likely that both Larry Hall and William Seymour tried to kill Loran Hall for putting so much heat on them with regard to the Silvia Odio incident. These were violent men. They had young families to support, and their job was to be mercenary soldiers against Fidel -- at a time when the USA passed Laws (Neutrality Act) to protect Cuba from Raids. They were being pinched, and the last thing they wanted was light and publicity.

It seems to me that insofar as Loran Hall called Silvia Odio out of the blue a few days after the "Odio Incident," then he clearly was able to get her phone number with no problem.

Once it became clear that she was going to talk to the FBI about the two Latinos at her door with Lee Harvey Oswald, it seems likely that both Loran Hall and Larry Howard would call her up and threaten to kill her if she identified them.

This -- to me -- is a viable explanation for the fact that Silvia Odio could identify no photographs the FBI showed her -- but within a couple of days the FBI had Loran Hall in the interview chair.

(By the way, Loran Hall's hair was receding at the temples -- he had lots of hair, but it was beginnig to recede at the temples in 1963. We have photographs.)

So, yes, Silvia Odio would be frightened to quickly identify these men, and her memory would be reticent regarding various details, including the car.

Also -- Gaeton Fonzi references Silvia Odio's HSCA deposition (Doc 009088, May 2, 1978) but I've never been able to find an online version -- not even at the Mary Ferrell site.

I wonder if I can scan it in from hardcopy -- I'll look into that.

Finally -- we need to consider the English/Spanish colloquial aspect of Silvia Odio's testimony. There are psychological factors, cultural one-upmanship, and so on, to consider when interviewing somebody whose second language is English. First-language idioms -- even figures of speech -- are often issues in such interviews.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

So you agree with me that Silvia Odio could have very well told the truth more fully and more accurately in 1978 than she had in 1964. Good.

So, what about the red car Silvia Odio saw the three men get into, as she allegedly stated in her 1978 HSCA deposition, as summarized, reported, and referred to in HSCA Report, Volume X?

http://www.maryferre...12&relPageId=30

Is "red car" just a screwed-up "figure of speech" made by a non-native English speaker or just an example of "cultural one-upsmanship" that somehow made its way into her HSCA deposition?

The fact that Silvia Odio saw them get into a red car, not Loran Hall's blue Oldsmobile (the blue color of which we know thanks to Tom Dunkin, and which make - Oldsmobile - was confirmed by Hall himself when he registered it with its license plate number at the Lawnview Motel in Dallas on September 28, 1963) leads me to wonder if Hall and Howard visited Odio after all...

--Tommy

Edited April 18, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

So you agree with me that Silvia Odio could have very well told the truth more fully and more accurately in 1978 than she had in 1964. Good.

So, what about the red car Silvia Odio saw the three men get into, as she allegedly stated in her 1978 HSCA deposition, as summarized, reported, and referred to in HSCA Report, Volume X?

http://www.maryferre...12&relPageId=30

Is "red car" just a screwed-up "figure of speech" made by a non-native English speaker or just an example of "cultural one-upsmanship" that somehow made its way into her HSCA deposition?

The fact that Silvia Odio saw them get into a red car, not Loran Hall's blue Oldsmobile (the blue color of which we know thanks to Tom Dunkin, and which make - Oldsmobile - was confirmed by Hall himself when he registered it with its license plate number at the Lawnview Motel in Dallas on September 28, 1963) leads me to wonder if Hall and Howard visited Odio after all...

--Tommy

Well Tommy, I have a problem with third-party summarizations of testimony, as I've seen too many errors in the "translation" so to speak.

Gaeton Fonzi is generally superior in his summarization, yet there was also another clerk between Silvia and Fonzi, as I recall. So, I will make an effort to get Silvia's actual HSCA deposition/testimony. (I can't leave my desk this afternoon, as I'm on an Oracle support call; but I'll try to locate Odio's deposition this weekend.)

I've seen "translation" errors especially in cases where English is a second language, and Silvia Odio was definitely on the defensive with her own ESL. It seems to me that "red" could also have the meaning of "sporty" or "hot rod" or "hot" or "rod" or other variants -- so, again, I really want to see Odio's actual wording in her deposition/testimony.

I thoroughly agree that the "red versus blue" issue is a deal-breaker regarding Loran Hall's car -- and it seriously weakens the likelihood of Hall and Howard being the two Latinos at her door.

Yet even if it was a red car -- it still doesn't ELIMINATE Hall and Howard as suspects in my mind -- because we still have a little information about their resources in Dallas.

For example, Silvia saw no trailer, and Larry Howard and Celio Alba both said they had a trailer in Dallas. So -- there remains a chance that the Blue Oldsmobile was being serviced somewhere, and some rich John Bircher (like Lester Logue, Robert Morris or some friend of General Walker) let them use his car for their "fund-raising" jaunt to Silvia Odio's.

In other words -- just because it wasn't Loran Hall's car, doesn't prove that it wasn't Loran Hall at Odio's doorstep.

We know that Loran Hall had JBS contacts in Dallas, because he was quickly bailed out of jail in the following month when he and William Seymour were arrested for possession of pep pills in Dallas.

Other names that also came up in Loran Hall's recollections of Dallas to Jim Garrison were: Lester Logue, Robert Morris, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Ex-General Edwin Walker and Warren Reynolds.

Warren Reynolds, by the way, worked on a Used Car lot, and had many cars at his disposal, day and night. Reynolds was allegedly one of General Walker's boyfriends, according to Loran Hall.

So, yes, I'll dig further into the linguistic aspect of Silvia Odio's claim to have seen a "red car" at her apartment during the final week of September 1963, when Lee Harvey Oswald appeared at her doorstep with two Latinos.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 18, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

... Silvia saw no trailer, and Larry Howard and Celio Alba both said they had a trailer in Dallas. So -- there remains a chance that the Blue Oldsmobile was being serviced somewhere, and some rich John Bircher (like Lester Logue, Robert Morris or some friend of General Walker) let them use his car for their "fund-raising" jaunt to Silvia Odio's.

[...]

Paul,

I don't think the trailer had to accompany Hall's Oldsmobile everywhere the Oldsmobile went in Dallas. If Hall and Howard visited Odio in a "totally rad" blue Oldsmobile (or a borrowed red car for that matter), and if the trailer wasn't with them, it's possible that it was at John Thomas Masen's house or shop so that he could convert the contents - the rifles - to full auto. Or perhaps they put the trailer in storage somewhere after delivering the rifles to Masen.

Anyway, it's kind of a hassle towing a trailer all the time like that, especially in a city, so why do it unless you absolutely have to?

Regarding Hall's car, according to this 9/23/64 FBI report, Larry Howard said they towed the trailer from LA to Dallas with Loran Hall's 1956 Oldsmobile.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Manuscripts%20And%20Books/OINO%20Appendix/Pages%20561-565.pdf

But a FBI report dated September 4, 1964, says that when Hall was arrested by the DPD on October 17, 1963, he was driving a 1955 Oldsmobile with Florida license plates (1WF67110). The license plates were different from, but very similar to, the plates Hall claimed were on it when he registered it at the Lawnview Motel on September 28, 1963, (1W167710).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=92721&relPageId=4

So, long-story-short, it looks like Hall was driving a Blue (2-tone blue and white?) 1955 Oldsmobile with Florida plates in Sept-Oct of 1963...

On a different topic, the FBI report says that Larry Howard described himself to the FBI as having been 5'11" tall and weighing 200 pounds in September of 1963 (he was up to 222 pounds at the time of the interview)..

The 5'11" self-description of Larry Howard is interesting because Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission that "Angelo" was two or three inches shorter than "Leon Oswald" - whom she described as being about four inches taller than her (she was 5'6"), making "Leon" about 5'10". She said that "Angelo" was "short" and weighed about 170 pounds. She said she guessed that he was about 5'7," so obviously this short, mysterious "Angelo" couldn't have been the 5'11" , 200 lb. Larry Howard.

[see page 387] http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

In the same FBI report, Howard described "Cellios Albas" (our Celio Sergio Castro Alba) as being 5'10" (we've seen other reports that he was 5'9"), 160 pounds, and having light brown hair. So not only was he also too tall to be "Angelo," but his hair was the wrong color, too.

It's interesting to note that in the FBI report, Larry Howard claimed that he, Hall, and "Cellios Albas" all had full beards when they were in Dallas, but Sylvia Odio didn't say anything to the Warren Commission about "Leopoldo" or "Angelo" having a beard.

The FBI report on the arrest of Loran Eugene Hall and the detention of William Seymour by the DPD on October 17, 1963, says that Hall had a Castro-like beard at that time.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=92721&relPageId=6

--Tommy

Edited April 19, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

I don't think the trailer had to accompany Hall's Oldsmobile everywhere the Oldsmobile went in Dallas. If Hall and Howard visited Odio in a "totally rad" blue Oldsmobile (or a borrowed red car for that matter), and if the trailer wasn't with them, it's possible that it was at John Thomas Masen's house or shop so that he could convert the contents - the rifles - to full auto. Or perhaps they put the trailer in storage somewhere after delivering the rifles to Masen.

Anyway, it's kind of a hassle towing a trailer all the time like that, especially in a city, so why do it unless you absolutely have to?

Regarding Hall's car, according to this 9/23/64 FBI report, Larry Howard said they towed the trailer from LA to Dallas with Loran Hall's 1956 Oldsmobile.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Manuscripts%20And%20Books/OINO%20Appendix/Pages%20561-565.pdf

But a FBI report dated September 4, 1964, says that when Hall was arrested by the DPD on October 17, 1963, he was driving a 1955 Oldsmobile with Florida license plates (1WF67110). The license plates were different from, but very similar to, the plates Hall claimed were on it when he registered it at the Lawnview Motel on September 28, 1963, (1W167710).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=92721&relPageId=4

So, long-story-short, it looks like Hall was driving a Blue (2-tone blue and white?) 1955 Oldsmobile with Florida plates in Sept-Oct of 1963...

On a different topic, the FBI report says that Larry Howard described himself to the FBI as having been 5'11" tall and weighing 200 pounds in September of 1963 (he was up to 222 pounds at the time of the interview)..

The 5'11" self-description of Larry Howard is interesting because Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission that "Angelo" was two or three inches shorter than "Leon Oswald" - whom she described as being about four inches taller than her (she was 5'6"), making "Leon" about 5'10". She said that "Angelo" was "short" and weighed about 170 pounds. She said she guessed that he was about 5'7," so obviously this short, mysterious "Angelo" couldn't have been the 5'11" , 200 lb. Larry Howard.

[see page 387] http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

In the same FBI report, Howard described "Cellios Albas" (our Celio Sergio Castro Alba) as being 5'10" (we've seen other reports that he was 5'9"), 160 pounds, and having light brown hair. So not only was he also too tall to be "Angelo," but his hair was the wrong color, too.

It's interesting to note that in the FBI report, Larry Howard claimed that he, Hall, and "Cellios Albas" all had full beards when they were in Dallas, but Sylvia Odio didn't say anything to the Warren Commission about "Leopoldo" or "Angelo" having a beard.

The FBI report on the arrest of Loran Eugene Hall and the detention of William Seymour by the DPD on October 17, 1963, says that Hall had a Castro-like beard at that time.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=92721&relPageId=6

--Tommy

Tommy, all this is intriguing.

By the way, to see a picture of Loran Hall with hair "receding at the temples" and also a "full Castro beard," you can see these by scanning through this YouTube audio of Loran Hall's 1963 speech, "Cuba Betrayed." Here is the URL:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6daWtQYlydQ]

Silvia Odio was not going to volunteer this information to the FBI -- but she had already told it to two people (not counting her family) before the JFK murder, namely, her confidante, Lucille Connell, and her psychiatrist, Dr. Burton Einspruch.

Connell was the one to alert the FBI on the day after the JFK murder, so Silvia Odio had no moral choice but to tell what she knew. The FBI and the HSCA also questioned Dr. Einspruch and generically concluded that Silvia Odio was credible. So did Gaeton Fonzi.

But there was other evidence -- she had written to her father a few days later, who was in a Cuban prison. It was months before she received a reply -- because that is how Cuba prisons did business back then. Her father's reply (in December) confirmed her story. Gaeton Fonzi was satisfied that Silvia Odio told the truth; and also she is intelligent, educated, and level-headed (under her life circumstances).

I don't doubt her. She SAW Lee Harvey Oswald at her doorstep during the final week of September 1963, accompanied by two Latinos -- Leopoldo and Angelo.

The only real question is about the actual identity of Leopoldo and Angelo.

I probably would not have guessed it was Loran Hall or Lawrence Howard -- Silvia Odio never said it was them. But the FBI picked up Loran Hall (for some bizarre reason) and Loran Hall confessed that he was at her doorstep around the time in question! That, to me, is rock-solid evidence. I'm convinced -- based on that alone.

NOW -- the details also begin to fit in. The lies of Loran Hall and Larry Howard are predictable -- given that Silvia Odio's story is actually TRUE. With these extra pieces -- involving Celio Alba and William Seymour, the details come to light, and the pieces ACTUALLY FIT.

As for the license plate -- One could easily use paint to make a "1" an "F" and to make a "7" look like a "1" from a distance. In any case, I agree with you that we have a match on the car and plates.

As for the height of Larry Howard -- it is fairly easy for somebody to "fudge" about both his height and his weight, when it comes to sports or to the military. More evidence is needed. According to Harry Dean, Larry Howard was definitely shorter than Loran Hall.

Also, in the Spanish ESL idiom, the word "short" can often be used to mean "shorter".

Finally -- I've been trying like a madman to find this document that you cited: "Deposition of Silvia Odio, May 2, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 6 (J.F.K. Documents 009088)".

I scoured all 12 HSCA volumes and realized that it is not contained in them! That floored me. Why is it missing from those volumes? It's cited in those volumes, but not included in them.

"Got to be good-looking 'cause he's so hard to see!"

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 19, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

I don't think the trailer had to accompany Hall's Oldsmobile everywhere the Oldsmobile went in Dallas. If Hall and Howard visited Odio in a "totally rad" blue Oldsmobile (or a borrowed red car for that matter), and if the trailer wasn't with them, it's possible that it was at John Thomas Masen's house or shop so that he could convert the contents - the rifles - to full auto. Or perhaps they put the trailer in storage somewhere after delivering the rifles to Masen.

Anyway, it's kind of a hassle towing a trailer all the time like that, especially in a city, so why do it unless you absolutely have to?

Regarding Hall's car, according to this 9/23/64 FBI report, Larry Howard said they towed the trailer from LA to Dallas with Loran Hall's 1956 Oldsmobile.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Manuscripts%20And%20Books/OINO%20Appendix/Pages%20561-565.pdf

But a FBI report dated September 4, 1964, says that when Hall was arrested by the DPD on October 17, 1963, he was driving a 1955 Oldsmobile with Florida license plates (1WF67110). The license plates were different from, but very similar to, the plates Hall claimed were on it when he registered it at the Lawnview Motel on September 28, 1963, (1W167710).

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=92721&relPageId=4

So, long-story-short, it looks like Hall was driving a Blue (2-tone blue and white?) 1955 Oldsmobile with Florida plates in Sept-Oct of 1963...

On a different topic, the FBI report says that Larry Howard described himself to the FBI as having been 5'11" tall and weighing 200 pounds in September of 1963 (he was up to 222 pounds at the time of the interview)..

The 5'11" self-description of Larry Howard is interesting because Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission that "Angelo" was two or three inches shorter than "Leon Oswald" - whom she described as being about four inches taller than her (she was 5'6"), making "Leon" about 5'10". She said that "Angelo" was "short" and weighed about 170 pounds. She said she guessed that he was about 5'7," so obviously this short, mysterious "Angelo" couldn't have been the 5'11" , 200 lb. Larry Howard.

[see page 387] http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

In the same FBI report, Howard described "Cellios Albas" (our Celio Sergio Castro Alba) as being 5'10" (we've seen other reports that he was 5'9"), 160 pounds, and having light brown hair. So not only was he also too tall to be "Angelo," but his hair was the wrong color, too.

It's interesting to note that in the FBI report, Larry Howard claimed that he, Hall, and "Cellios Albas" all had full beards when they were in Dallas, but Sylvia Odio didn't say anything to the Warren Commission about "Leopoldo" or "Angelo" having a beard.

The FBI report on the arrest of Loran Eugene Hall and the detention of William Seymour by the DPD on October 17, 1963, says that Hall had a Castro-like beard at that time.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=92721&relPageId=6

--Tommy

Tommy, all this is intriguing.

By the way, to see a picture of Loran Hall with hair "receding at the temples" and also a "full Castro beard," you can see these by scanning through this YouTube audio of Loran Hall's 1963 speech, "Cuba Betrayed." Here is the URL:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6daWtQYlydQ]

Silvia Odio was not going to volunteer this information to the FBI -- but she had already told it to two people (not counting her family) before the JFK murder, namely, her confidante, Lucille Connell, and her psychiatrist, Dr. Burton Einspruch.

Connell was the one to alert the FBI on the day after the JFK murder, so Silvia Odio had no moral choice but to tell what she knew. The FBI and the HSCA also questioned Dr. Einspruch and generically concluded that Silvia Odio was credible. So did Gaeton Fonzi.

But there was other evidence -- she had written to her father a few days later, who was in a Cuban prison. It was months before she received a reply -- because that is how Cuba prisons did business back then. Her father's reply (in December) confirmed her story. Gaeton Fonzi was satisfied that Silvia Odio told the truth; and also she is intelligent, educated, and level-headed (under her life circumstances).

I don't doubt her. She SAW Lee Harvey Oswald at her doorstep during the final week of September 1963, accompanied by two Latinos -- Leopoldo and Angelo.

The only real question is about the actual identity of Leopoldo and Angelo.

I probably would not have guessed it was Loran Hall or Lawrence Howard -- Silvia Odio never said it was them. But the FBI picked up Loran Hall (for some bizarre reason) and Loran Hall confessed that he was at her doorstep around the time in question! That, to me, is rock-solid evidence. I'm convinced -- based on that alone.

NOW -- the details also begin to fit in. The lies of Loran Hall and Larry Howard are predictable -- given that Silvia Odio's story is actually TRUE. With these extra pieces -- involving Celio Alba and William Seymour, the details come to light, and the pieces ACTUALLY FIT.

As for the license plate -- One could easily use paint to make a "1" an "F" and to make a "7" look like a "1" from a distance. In any case, I agree with you that we have a match on the car and plates.

As for the height of Larry Howard -- it is fairly easy for somebody to "fudge" about both his height and his weight, when it comes to sports or to the military. More evidence is needed. According to Harry Dean, Larry Howard was definitely shorter than Loran Hall.

Also, in the Spanish ESL idiom, the word "short" can often be used to mean "shorter".

Finally -- I've been trying like a madman to find this document that you cited: "Deposition of Silvia Odio, May 2, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 6 (J.F.K. Documents 009088)".

I scoured all 12 HSCA volumes and realized that it is not contained in them! That floored me. Why is it missing from those volumes? It's cited in those volumes, but not included in them.

"Got to be good-looking 'cause he's so hard to see!"

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

If the 5'11" Larry Howard http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Manuscripts%20And%20Books/OINO%20Appendix/Pages%20561-565.pdf was "Angelo," why would Sylvia Odio tell the Warren Commission that he ("Angelo") was about 5'7" http://www.history-m...f/WH11_Odio.pdf ?

That's a discrepancy of four inches!

She also said that "Angelo" weighed about 170 pounds, but the FBI report has Howard at 222 pounds in September of 1964. That's a difference of fifty-two pounds!

Was Sylvia Odio lying?

If she was lying, it means we can't believe any of her descriptions of the three men.

Was Sylvia Odio mistaken?

Ditto.

Not only did Sylvia Odio specifically state that "Angelo" was <quote> about 5' 7" <unquote>, she also said that "Angelo" was two or three inches shorter than "Leon Oswald" (whom she said was about four inches taller than her). Since Sylvia Odio described herself as being 5'6", this means "Leon Oswald" was about 5'10" and "Angelo" was about 5' 7".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

--Tommy

Edited April 20, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

If the 5'11" Howard was "Angelo," why would Odio tell the Warren Commission that he was about 5'7" ?

That's a discrepancy of four inches!

She also said that "Angelo" weighed about 170 pounds, but an FBI report has him at 222 pounds in September of 1964. That's a difference of fifty-two pounds!

Was Sylvia Odio lying?

If she was lying, it means we can't believe any of her descriptions of the three men.

Was Sylvia Odio mistaken?

Ditto.

Not only did Sylvia Odio specifically state that "Angelo" was <quote> about 5' 7" <unquote>, she also said that "Angelo" was two or three inches shorter than "Leon Oswald" (whom she said was about four inches taller than her). Since Sylvia Odio described herself as being 5'6", this means "Leon Oswald" was about 5'10" and "Angelo" was about 5' 7".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

--Tommy

These are all excellent questions, Tommy, and of course the answer is unclear.

I'll offer an amateur guess based on Spanish ESL psychology:

In the Spanish culture, IMHO, the more important persons are regarded as "taller". This is a family oriented culture, and the Father is the most important and always the tallest (in the ideal and colloquial world). Then the mother (while the kids are young) until the oldest male is taller than she, The oldest sibling is often the next most important (after they surpass their mother in height).

It may seem very ancient and agricultural, but I've seen these language patterns before. Size means importance. (We see this in ancient art, for example -- the Pharaoh or King is represented as enormous, and the people are represented as half-size. Size meant importance.)

Remember, too, that the entire world was watching the LEE HARVEY OSWALD drama. Oswald was arguably the most important person of the whole year.

So, it might be that Silvia Odio recollected Larry Howard as less important as the others:

1. Because Larry Howard hardly spoke

2. Because Larry Howard was not good-looking

3. Because Larry Howard was neither a Cuban nor an American

4. Because Larry Howard hardly spoke

5. Because Larry Howard was not LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Silvia Odio's testimony also suggests -- "I don't pay attention to how many inches tall a person is!! I can give you my best recollection, but don't hold me to this."

She wasn't measuring the men as they stood before her. She wasn't guessing their weight, either. Also, women lie about their own weight all the time, so it's harder to establish weight under those circumstances.

What do Spanish women notice?

i. They notice faces.

ii. They notice clothes.

iii. They notice race and ethnicity

iv. They notice good-looking versus plain-looking

v. They notice youth versus old age.

One might argue that Spanish women would only notice height or weight if it was VERY noticable. I think that Silvia Odio casually tossed out heights and weights because they weren't precise to her (as she admitted) and she was pressured to say SOMETHING.

I am more interested in her recollection of their faces, and the words they said.

Now -- Gaeton Fonzi will not presume that Leopoldo was Loran Hall. That's fine. BUT WHY DID LORAN HALL CONFESS AT FIRST? AND WHY DID THE FBI PICK UP LORAN HALL ALMOST IMMEDIATELY?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

If the 5'11" Howard was "Angelo," why would Odio tell the Warren Commission that he was about 5'7" ?

That's a discrepancy of four inches!

She also said that "Angelo" weighed about 170 pounds, but an FBI report has him at 222 pounds in September of 1964. That's a difference of fifty-two pounds!

Was Sylvia Odio lying?

If she was lying, it means we can't believe any of her descriptions of the three men.

Was Sylvia Odio mistaken?

Ditto.

Not only did Sylvia Odio specifically state that "Angelo" was <quote> about 5' 7" <unquote>, she also said that "Angelo" was two or three inches shorter than "Leon Oswald" (whom she said was about four inches taller than her). Since Sylvia Odio described herself as being 5'6", this means "Leon Oswald" was about 5'10" and "Angelo" was about 5' 7".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

--Tommy

These are all excellent questions, Tommy, and of course the answer is unclear.

I'll offer an amateur guess based on Spanish ESL psychology:

In the Spanish culture, IMHO, the more important persons are regarded as "taller". This is a family oriented culture, and the Father is the most important and always the tallest (in the ideal and colloquial world). Then the mother (while the kids are young) until the oldest male is taller than she, The oldest sibling is often the next most important (after they surpass their mother in height).

It may seem very ancient and agricultural, but I've seen these language patterns before. Size means importance. (We see this in ancient art, for example -- the Pharaoh or King is represented as enormous, and the people are represented as half-size. Size meant importance.)

Remember, too, that the entire world was watching the LEE HARVEY OSWALD drama. Oswald was arguably the most important person of the whole year.

So, it might be that Silvia Odio recollected Larry Howard as less important as the others:

1. Because Larry Howard hardly spoke

2. Because Larry Howard was not good-looking

3. Because Larry Howard was neither a Cuban nor an American

4. Because Larry Howard hardly spoke

5. Because Larry Howard was not LEE HARVEY OSWALD

Silvia Odio's testimony also suggests -- "I don't pay attention to how many inches tall a person is!! I can give you my best recollection, but don't hold me to this."

She wasn't measuring the men as they stood before her. She wasn't guessing their weight, either. Also, women lie about their own weight all the time, so it's harder to establish weight under those circumstances.

What do Spanish women notice?

i. They notice faces.

ii. They notice clothes.

iii. They notice race and ethnicity

iv. They notice good-looking versus plain-looking

v. They notice youth versus old age.

One might argue that Spanish women would only notice height or weight if it was VERY noticable. I think that Silvia Odio casually tossed out heights and weights because they weren't precise to her (as she admitted) and she was pressured to say SOMETHING.

I am more interested in her recollection of their faces, and the words they said.

Now -- Gaeton Fonzi will not presume that Leopoldo was Loran Hall. That's fine. BUT WHY DID LORAN HALL CONFESS AT FIRST? AND WHY DID THE FBI PICK UP LORAN HALL ALMOST IMMEDIATELY?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Horse feathers!

Of course Sylvia Odio was not the kind of person "who pays attention to how many inches tall a person is." No one is. But it is human nature to notice if a stranger who comes to your apartment at night is taller than you or shorter than you. And in this case, she noticed that Leopoldo was significantly taller than her, she noticed that the "not very tall" Leon was about 4" taller than her, and she noticed that Angelo was "short," in fact he was so "short" that he appeared to be two or three inches shorter than the not-very-tall "Leon," giving Odio the impression that "Angelo" was only about 5' 7".

Recap: Stylvia Odio didn't just tell the Warren Commission that "Angelo" was "short," she actually said that he was "two or three inches shorter than Leon," and "five feet seven, something like that."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

What's so hard to believe about her ability to notice and remember the relative heights of three strange men who were at her doorstep for fifteen or twenty minutes?

She said that "Leopoldo" was "tall," that "Leon" "wasn't very tall," and that "Angelo" was "short." When asked how tall they were, she said "six feet," "five foot ten," and "five foot seven," respectively.

Do you actually think that Odio was in the habit of comparing the relative status, power, and attractiveness of people in terms of "two or three inch" and "four inch" increments? LOL

FWIW, I've found something that Sylvia told the Warren Commission that day which directly contradicts your "Spanish ESL Psychology" theory:

"There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

Obviously, by "tall one" Sylvia Odio was referring to Leopoldo's physical stature, not his cultural or social qualities.

--Tommy

PS If you read Sylvia Odio's Warren Commission testimony you'll see that, other than having an occasional problem with verb tenses, her English language skills are better than most of the members of this forum.

LOL

Edited April 20, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

Horse feathers!

Of course Sylvia Odio was not the kind of person "who pays attention to how many inches tall a person is." No one is. But it is human nature to notice if a stranger who comes to your apartment at night is taller than you or shorter than you. And in this case, she noticed that Leopoldo was significantly taller than her, she noticed that the "not very tall" Leon was about 4" taller than her, and she noticed that Angelo was "short," in fact he was so "short" that he appeared to be two or three inches shorter than the not-very-tall "Leon," giving Odio the impression that "Angelo" was only about 5' 7".

Recap: Stylvia Odio didn't just tell the Warren Commission that "Angelo" was "short," she actually said that he was "two or three inches shorter than Leon," and "five feet seven, something like that."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

What's so hard to believe about her ability to notice and remember the relative heights of three strange men who were at her doorstep for fifteen or twenty minutes?

She said that "Leopoldo" was "tall," that "Leon" "wasn't very tall," and that "Angelo" was "short." When asked how tall they were, she said "six feet," "five foot ten," and "five foot seven," respectively.

Do you actually think that Odio was in the habit of comparing the relative status, power, and attractiveness of people in terms of "two or three inch" and "four inch" increments? LOL

FWIW, I've found something that Sylvia told the Warren Commission that day which directly contradicts your "Spanish ESL Psychology" theory:

"There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

Obviously, by "tall one" Sylvia Odio was referring to Leopoldo's physical stature, not his cultural or social qualities.

--Tommy

PS If you read Sylvia Odio's Warren Commission testimony you'll see that, other than having an occasional problem with verb tenses, her English language skills are better than most of the members of this forum.

LOL

OK, Tommy, I can see your point. But I must admit that this is a serious problem for the Loran Hall and Larry Howard theory.

It is very clear that Larry Howard was not 5'7" and 170 pounds. So, given that data, we have a mismatch.

This leaves us with the problem of Loran Hall.

In other words, with this development, we must now posit that Loran Hall didn't take Larry Howard with him to Silvia Odio's apartment along with Lee Harvey Oswald -- instead, Loran Hall took a DIFFERENT person along, for whom we have no identification.

This person looked Mexican, had shiny black hair, was hairy all over his body, spoke Spanish fluently, and some English, and was 5'7" and 170 pounds. This doesn't remind me of Quarito at this time.

I am willing to guess that Loran Hall took a DIFFERENT person along with himself and Lee Harvey Oswald to visit Silvia Odio on the final week of September 1963.

Yet it seems to me that Loran Hall is still a suspect for two solid reasons: (1) the FBI picked him up quickly in this case; and (2) Loran Hall confessed that he was at Silvia Odio's doorstep during the final week of September 1963.

So, that would explain why Silvia Odio was unable to identify Larry Howard from any photos the FBI showed her -- but it would not explain why she failed to identify Loran Hall from photos.

Either that, or Silvia Odio was lying to save her life. The combination of Hall and Howard was fitting, because they were so often seen together, and because (except for height and weight) Howard fit Odio's description well.

The 'war names' that Hall and Howard used were 'Lorenzo' and 'Alonzo' respectively. This is also different from 'Leopoldo' and 'Angelo,' except for the initials.

This also remains an issue.

It also remains significant that the HSCA Deposition of Silvia Odio was not published with the HSCA 12 volumes.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

Horse feathers!

Of course Sylvia Odio was not the kind of person "who pays attention to how many inches tall a person is." No one is. But it is human nature to notice if a stranger who comes to your apartment at night is taller than you or shorter than you. And in this case, she noticed that Leopoldo was significantly taller than her, she noticed that the "not very tall" Leon was about 4" taller than her, and she noticed that Angelo was "short," in fact he was so "short" that he appeared to be two or three inches shorter than the not-very-tall "Leon," giving Odio the impression that "Angelo" was only about 5' 7".

Recap: Stylvia Odio didn't just tell the Warren Commission that "Angelo" was "short," she actually said that he was "two or three inches shorter than Leon," and "five feet seven, something like that."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

What's so hard to believe about her ability to notice and remember the relative heights of three strange men who were at her doorstep for fifteen or twenty minutes?

She said that "Leopoldo" was "tall," that "Leon" "wasn't very tall," and that "Angelo" was "short." When asked how tall they were, she said "six feet," "five foot ten," and "five foot seven," respectively.

Do you actually think that Odio was in the habit of comparing the relative status, power, and attractiveness of people in terms of "two or three inch" and "four inch" increments? LOL

FWIW, I've found something that Sylvia told the Warren Commission that day which directly contradicts your "Spanish ESL Psychology" theory:

"There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_Odio.pdf

Obviously, by "tall one" Sylvia Odio was referring to Leopoldo's physical stature, not his cultural or social qualities.

--Tommy

PS If you read Sylvia Odio's Warren Commission testimony you'll see that, other than having an occasional problem with verb tenses, her English language skills are better than most of the members of this forum.

LOL

OK, Tommy, I can see your point. But I must admit that this is a serious problem for the Loran Hall and Larry Howard theory.

It is very clear that Larry Howard was not 5'7" and 170 pounds. So, given that data, we have a mismatch.

This leaves us with the problem of Loran Hall.

In other words, with this development, we must now posit that Loran Hall didn't take Larry Howard with him to Silvia Odio's apartment along with Lee Harvey Oswald -- instead, Loran Hall took a DIFFERENT person along, for whom we have no identification.

This person looked Mexican, had shiny black hair, was hairy all over his body, spoke Spanish fluently, and some English, and was 5'7" and 170 pounds. This doesn't remind me of Quarito at this time.

I am willing to guess that Loran Hall took a DIFFERENT person along with himself and Lee Harvey Oswald to visit Silvia Odio on the final week of September 1963.

Yet it seems to me that Loran Hall is still a suspect for two solid reasons: (1) the FBI picked him up quickly in this case; and (2) Loran Hall confessed that he was at Silvia Odio's doorstep during the final week of September 1963.

So, that would explain why Silvia Odio was unable to identify Larry Howard from any photos the FBI showed her -- but it would not explain why she failed to identify Loran Hall from photos.

Either that, or Silvia Odio was lying to save her life. The combination of Hall and Howard was fitting, because they were so often seen together, and because (except for height and weight) Howard fit Odio's description well.

The 'war names' that Hall and Howard used were 'Lorenzo' and 'Alonzo' respectively. This is also different from 'Leopoldo' and 'Angelo,' except for the initials.

This also remains an issue.

It also remains significant that the HSCA Deposition of Silvia Odio was not published with the HSCA 12 volumes.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

You say, "Except for height and weight, Howard fit Odio's description well."

That's like saying, "If you disregard the size difference, a chihuahua could be mistaken for a Great Dane."

Now, regarding "Lorenzo"-- Sylvia Odio said several times that he was tall and thin. She specifically said, "He must have been six feet," and when asked how much she thought he weighed, she said "He was thin, about 165 pounds." In my mind, her saying that Leopoldo "must have been six feet" is the same as "he was at least six feet"

in September of 1964, Loran Hall was 5'11.5" and weighed 215 pounds, so he was definitely not definitely not "thin" and can be eliminated him from consideration.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=47745&relPageId=156

So, who do we know from the Cuban Exile community who was at least six feet tall but weighed only 165 pounds?

Well, the following document shows a 6'2" Cuban who was born in 1934 in Havana, who moved to Detroit, Michigan, in 1955 to play professional baseball, and who was later captured at the Bay of Pigs.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=52134&relPageId=31

The next page of the same Spanish-language document shows that this guy weighed only 164 pounds.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=52134&relPageId=32

Oh yeah, and he had an unusual hairline as can be seen in several photographs.

His full name is Bernardo Gonzalez De Torres Y Alvarez.

We know him as Bernardo De Torres.

Based on the physical resemblance alone, I think Bernardo De Torres was "Leopoldo."

Now, if I can just prove that Bernardo De Torres owned a totally-rad... I mean red ... car in 1963...

--Tommy

Edited April 21, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

You say, "Except for height and weight, Howard fit Odio's description well."

That's like saying, "If you disregard the size difference, a chihuahua could be mistaken for a Great Dane."

Now, regarding "Lorenzo"-- Sylvia Odio said several times that he was tall and thin. She specifically said, "He must have been six feet," and when asked how much she thought he weighed, she said "He was thin, about 165 pounds." In my mind, her saying that Leopoldo "must have been six feet" is the same as "he was at least six feet"

in September of 1964, Loran Hall was 5'11.5" and weighed 215 pounds, so he was definitely not definitely not "thin" and can be eliminated him from consideration.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=47745&relPageId=156

So, who do we know from the Cuban Exile community who was at least six feet tall but weighed only 165 pounds?

Well, the following document shows a 6'2" Cuban who was born in 1934 in Havana, who moved to Detroit, Michigan, in 1955 to play professional baseball, and who was later captured at the Bay of Pigs.

The next page of the same Spanish-language document shows that this guy weighed only 164 pounds.

Oh yeah, and he had an unusual hairline as can be seen in several photographs.

His full name is Bernardo Gonzalez De Torres Y Alvarez.

We know him as Bernardo De Torres.

Based on the physical resemblance alone, I think Bernardo De Torres was "Leopoldo."

Now, if I can just prove that Bernardo De Torres owned a totally-rad... I mean red ... car in 1963...

--Tommy

Tommy, you seem to be basing your choice of "Leopoldo" EXCLUSIVELY on the height and weight of the subject.

There are just too many people who fit any given height-and-weight combo.

You also underestimate the plain fact that some people are really not very good about guessing height and weight.

Although Bernardo De Torres' hair seems to be receding at the temples, you must have OTHER criteria. Do you?

OK, so Bernardo De Torres was the right height-and-weight. What ELSE have you got? I'm not talking about a car, but about LOCATION at the TIME of the SCENE.

What is special about Loran Hall is that he was in the RIGHT LOCATION at the RIGHT TIME. (And so was LARRY HOWARD, come to think of it).

Also -- you have not yet responded to the key criterion -- that Loran Hall CONFESSED when he was QUICKLY picked up by the FBI.

That's the sort of criteria that is interesting. The face and hair, skin tone and ethnicity are, IMHO, more urgent than a mere guess at weight and height.

Also, remember that Silvia Odio never left her door, and never let the visitors inside her home. She never stood on the same level that they stood -- so this would skew her estimates of height, and therefore of weight.

Also, were any of these men wearing boots? That would be a factor in guessing height and weight.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 21, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, you might wish to follow up with Joan Mellon's book, I don't recall the details but what I do recall is at some point either Murgado or de Torres said that de Torres had gone to

Dallas, in fact it went much further than that with de Torres claiming he had known Sylvia Odio in Cuba and was interested in looking her up again and possibly dating her...

I'm offering no opinion on that but there certainly has been discussion of de Torres in Dallas and visiting Odio.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, you might wish to follow up with Joan Mellon's book, I don't recall the details but what I do recall is at some point either Murgado or de Torres said that de Torres had gone to Dallas, in fact it went much further than that with de Torres claiming he had known Sylvia Odio in Cuba and was interested in looking her up again and possibly dating her...

I'm offering no opinion on that but there certainly has been discussion of de Torres in Dallas and visiting Odio.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

Thanks, Larry, for this pointer. I have Joan Mellen's book, and I'll look further into that story.

But on the surface of it -- since Torres said he knew Silvia Odio, then it stands to reason that Silvia Odio also knew Torres -- so this disqualifies him because Silvia claimed that the men at her doorstep were total strangers.

That's important. These were not Cubans. Loran Hall was a Cuban-American (born in Kansas) and Larry Howard was a Mexican-American (born in East LA). They were mercenaries, and although they made money from the Anti-Castro crusade, and they claimed to have 'blood in the game,' their motivation could never compare with real Cubans, e.g. the members of JURE.

Silvia was a member of JURE -- so she knew (or strongly suspected) Loran Hall was lying when he said they were members of JURE. So -- these were strangers who were lying to her. She was brave -- but she had limits.

I'll review Joan Mellen again -- yet it seems to me that somebody with previous eye-contact with Silvia Odio should be disqualified -- presuming that we, like Gaeton Fonzi, find Silvia Odio 'eminently credible.'

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 21, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

You say, "Except for height and weight, Howard fit Odio's description well."

That's like saying, "If you disregard the size difference, a chihuahua could be mistaken for a Great Dane."

Now, regarding "Lorenzo"-- Sylvia Odio said several times that he was tall and thin. She specifically said, "He must have been six feet," and when asked how much she thought he weighed, she said "He was thin, about 165 pounds." In my mind, her saying that Leopoldo "must have been six feet" is the same as "he was at least six feet"

in September of 1964, Loran Hall was 5'11.5" and weighed 215 pounds, so he was definitely not definitely not "thin" and can be eliminated him from consideration.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=47745&relPageId=156

So, who do we know from the Cuban Exile community who was at least six feet tall but weighed only 165 pounds?

Well, the following document shows a 6'2" Cuban who was born in 1934 in Havana, who moved to Detroit, Michigan, in 1955 to play professional baseball, and who was later captured at the Bay of Pigs.

The next page of the same Spanish-language document shows that this guy weighed only 164 pounds.

Oh yeah, and he had an unusual hairline as can be seen in several photographs.

His full name is Bernardo Gonzalez De Torres Y Alvarez.

We know him as Bernardo De Torres.

Based on the physical resemblance alone, I think Bernardo De Torres was "Leopoldo."

Now, if I can just prove that Bernardo De Torres owned a totally-rad... I mean red ... car in 1963...

--Tommy

[...]

There are just too many people who fit any given height-and-weight combo.

You also underestimate the plain fact that some people are really not very good about guessing height and weight.

[...]

Paul,

Do you really think there were a lot of Cuban exiles who were 1) about thirty years old, 2) at least 6 feet tall,

3) weighed only 164 pounds, and 4) had a memorably unusual hairline?

I don't.

And regarding your insinuation that Sylvia Odio was "one of those people who are just not good at guessing height and weight," she did say that "Leon Oswald" was about five-ten.

--Tommy

Edited April 28, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, you could only disqualify de Torres if you believed his remark about knowing Odio in Cuba. Most likely, if he did go to Dallas that would have been a lie to cover up his motive. If you look into it further you find that there would have been an immense social gulf between his family and hers. Also, de Torres is the real deal, you can find him present on exile boat missions and with true contacts to the real operation players in the exile community. Basically he was he read deal as compared to Hall who was nothing but a talker... Heck Hall was so general mistrusted that the John Birch society guys in California made him take a polygraph before they would even let him address their group. On the other hand de Torres had truly deep connections and appeared to have been widely trusted by the most activist groups ranging from Commandos L to Alpha 66....