A new look at paper bags, curtain rods, and Oswald

[David Von Pein]

3 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

'I am an extremely gullible person.'

Yes, Alan, you are.

 

[Pat Speer]

On 11/7/2023 at 10:02 AM, David Von Pein said:

The BIG / HUGE / TREMENDOUS / IMPORTANT difference between JFK conspiracy fantasists and myself is:

I require a total of 0 (Zero) l-i-a-r-s (not counting Lee Oswald) in order for my Lone Assassin position to be supported and maintained.

CTers like Alan Ford, however, require a very large number of people to be telling many lies about various aspects of the evidence connected to the 11/22/63 events in Dealey Plaza and on Tenth Street.

In just this "Exhibit 275 / Curtain rod" instance alone, the CTers who think it was nothing more than a staged "charade" require several different people to be telling blatant falsehoods about the curtain rod evidence, including Ruth Paine, John Joe Howlett, Albert Jenner, J.C. Day, and (probably) Michael Paine. And it's very likely that CTers would place many other people at the Depository on this particular L-i-a-r-s List too.

But, as I've said many times in the past, there are a lot of conspiracy theorists who couldn't care less how many people they have to call rotten evil l-i-a-r-s in order to try and support their silly theories. It would seem the CTer policy has been (and still remains today): The More L-i-a-r-s, The Better.

 

I agree with the substance of your point. But there's a Iproblem. The Oswald-did-it clique maintain that no one in a position to fib...fibbed. And that's totally out of step with reality. Either because they are incredibly out of step with reality.  Or fibbers themselves. 

Having lived, I have some personal experience to draw from. Let me give some examples.

1. In my 20's I was asked by my sister's long-time boyfriend, a sergeant in the Los Angeles Police Department and essentially a member of my family, to  help train young officers on the Warner Brothers back lot. I said yes. My girlfriend and I portrayed a couple in a domestic dispute, and groups of officers were paraded in every half hour to resolve this dispute. We were separated and interrogated. But here is the kicker. We had a back-story. We were arguing over her brother, an escapee from an out-of-state prison, who was hiding in our attic. At a certain point, the retired cop playing the brother would make a sound upstairs and the fun would begin. The officers were forced to navigate a dangerous situation. Not only was the brother armed and waiting for them, my girlfriend, playing his sister, had a revolver in the back of her pants. The results were kinda shocking. Although I was unarmed, and offered no physical resistance, I was shot and killed twice as I remember. I was also physically abused several times by young officers out to impress their superiors. As for my girlfriend and the retired officer, they were each shot and killed a few times, but they usually emerged victorious. They killed 15 officers the first day. Now here's the lesson in human nature. Although the officers were under strict orders not to discuss the scenario, it became clear on the second day that some had broken protocol and had warned the second day's trainees that my girlfriend had a gun. Only six were killed the second day. Now here's another lesson. A year or so later one of the young officers was killed in the line of duty while chasing a burglar down a street. The young killer then hid in a neighboring attic, where he was killed in a supposed shoot-out. But here's the thing. It came out later that he was shot by three officers, one at a time, while hiding in the attic. An officer would go up the ladder, shoot him, and come down. And then another officer would go up and shoot him. Three times. It was clear he'd been executed. But no one was punished because he was a cop-killer and they all covered up and said when they went up he raised his gun and they had to shoot him in self-defense. Three times.

2. Years later, I blew the whistle against some criminals, who had embezzled millions from my place of work, and had essentially shut the place down. I had numerous talks with the IRS criminal investigations division and FBI, and prosecution was imminent. But then 9/11 happened and nothing happened. After several months of silence, I recontacted the various agencies and got a cold shoulder. But then finally received word. The FBI was under orders to drop all white-collar crime investigations and focus on anti-terrorism. The only way to get the case re-activated was to link the criminals to a Muslim, or so I was told. And they had a particular Muslim in mind, a co-owner of our building, but he was a friend and largely on the sidelines. When I refused to help them build a case against him, well, the criminal case against the others--all guilty as heck--was abandoned, and the bank screwed out of its 15 million dollar Ioan had to sue. Whereby all the criminals declared bankruptcy, and nothing happened. The only one to go to jail was the accountant, on an unrelated matter.

3. Decades passed. And I developed leukemia. After cleaning out my lungs, my pulmonologist told me that I'd had a long-time exposure to a toxic substance. This led me then to look into my former place of employment. It turned out that the building where I worked for seven years had been a toxic waste site, that had even made the news when a large cloud of chlorine gas had escaped from a tank on the property, which led to an evacuation of thousands. This was 5 years before I worked there. In the meantime, the property was supposedly cleaned up...by my former boss, the embezzler. Well, piecing together the story, it appears he was given a huge discount on the property if he promised to clean it up, and had done a half-assed job when doing so. And no, it was pointless to sue him, because he'd subsequently been arrested for drug-trafficking, and had served years in prison. Well, then what about the city inspectors and politicians who'd signed off on the sale? The EPA would only provide records from after the company had gone bankrupt. These showed the place to be toxic alright. But what about tests performed just before I came to work there and while I was working there? For some reason, those were unavailable. I suspect my former boss, with some assistance from a local govt. employee, had made them disappear. And no, that's not being paranoid. I had in the past witnessed him bribing fire inspectors, and had more recently heard him boast of his Svengali-like hold over an IRS investigator, who'd spent a year in our building working on an audit and had conveniently discovered just enough to allow himself to remain at our building, which was near his house. which simultaneously allowed him to escape driving into the office, an hour away in traffic. 

4. This brings me then to my years-long treatment for cancer. Along the way I have been pressured into many a procedure, most of which have turned out to be unnecessary, and many an over-priced medication. And there have also been some screw-ups. And yet my complaints to my doctors about nurses who'd screwed-up and nearly bled me to death, and an MRI tech who ignored my screams and refused to let me out and kept repeating the final cycle for two hours, and even a nurse who followed me into the bathroom and demanded I show her my penis, NEVER make it into any official reports ever. It's all about running up the bills and avoiding liability.

 

So, no, David, "officialdom" is not comprised of church mice. It is comprised of flawed humans, many of whom fib or cover-up as a matter of routine. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Sean Coleman]

Pat, you should write a book about your escapades, pretty exciting life by the sounds of it!

don’t want to seem crude or vulgar……but why did the (m/f?) nurse need to see your todger?

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

So, no, David, "officialdom" is not comprised of church mice. It is comprised of flawed humans, many of whom fib or cover-up as a matter of routine. 

I like this line! It gives us a neat definition of Warren Gullibility: "The belief that, in the JFKA case, officialdom was composed of church mice".

Mr. Von Pein's mantra that 'There is no evidence any curtain rods were found in the Depository' is now bunk. All he can do now in the face of the evidence he has so tragically failed to explain away is say that the problem lies with CTs--------they're just too darn suspicious. It's beyond laughable.

The irony, of course, is that this same Mr. Von Pein, who tells us not to be so suspicious of people's motives, will happily pop up again-------------here and elsewhere---------------trotting out his 'No curtain rods found' fiction without compunction. The curtain rod evidence which over the past few pages has completely eluded his powers of explanation will not get a mention.

There is a word for that kind of bad-faith behavior. But I won't use it.

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

4 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

Pat, you should write a book about your escapades, pretty exciting life by the sounds of it!

don’t want to seem crude or vulgar……but why did the (m/f?) nurse need to see your todger?

Next time a nurse asks to take your pants down, you say with a big smile on your face : "Nice, you first"

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[David Von Pein]

11 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

So, no, David, "officialdom" is not comprised of church mice. It is comprised of flawed humans, many of whom fib or cover-up as a matter of routine. 

But in the "EXHIBIT NO. 275 / CURTAIN ROD" instance, which some CTers are now insisting was all just a "charade", if those CTers are correct, we'd actually have to believe that not only did people in "officialdom" fib/lie out their respective ass cracks, but we'd ALSO have to believe that Ruth Paine (and probably Michael Paine too) were lying about the curtain rods that Ruth said were stored in her garage both BEFORE and AFTER the assassination. And neither Ruth nor Michael are part of the police, the FBI, or "officialdom" in general.

And regarding the "SECOND-FLOOR LUNCHROOM ENCOUNTER", which many many CTers on the Internet now firmly believe NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL .... the l-i-a-r-s in that instance would have, just like the "Exhibit 275 Charade", also consisted of a COMBINATION of "officialdom" people telling one lie after another (Marrion Baker) and regular ol' citizens (TSBD Superintendent Roy Truly).

And then there's the Tippit murder (which many conspiracy theorists believe was committed by someone they are sure was NOT Lee Harvey Oswald) .... with witnesses like Johnny Brewer and Ted Callaway and the Davis girls and William Scoggins all being thrown under the bus and treated like l-i-a-r-s and crooks by various CTers over the years. And none of those people I just mentioned can be labelled as being part of "officialdom" at all. They were all just ordinary Dallas citizens in 1963.

So, again, in the Tippit case, if the CTers are right, it would have been a combination of ordinary people PLUS various police officials who must have lied through their individual and collective teeth and then they all gathered together in Chief Curry's office at City Hall and decided to join forces to frame an innocent Oswald. It's just flat-out absurd.

And there are, of course, many additional examples that I could easily cite in order to support my previous (admittedly) tongue-in-cheek comment about "The More L-i-a-r-s, The Better" motto/mantra that seems to have been embraced in recent years by many Internet conspiracists. But if I were to cite all of those examples in just this one post, I wouldn't get any sleep for the next five days.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by David Von Pein

[John Iacoletti]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:02 PM, David Von Pein said:

I require a total of 0 (Zero) l-i-a-r-s (not counting Lee Oswald) in order for my Lone Assassin position to be supported and maintained.

What utter BS.

Just a sample of the "lying" witnesses according to DVP and his fellow ideologues:

Arnold Rowland
Roger Craig
Carolyn Walther
Jean Hill
Vickie Adams
Ed Hoffman
Julia Ann Mercer
Gordon Arnold
Ricky White
Rose Cheramie
Acquilla Clemons
Bernard Haire
Sylvia Odio
O.P. Wright
Bardwell Odum
Seth Kantor
Butch Burroughs
W.R. (Dub) Stark
Louis Cortinas
Tom Mullins, Emmett Hollingshead, and J.B. "Shorty" Lewis
James A. Andrews
T. F. White
Fred Moore
John Elrod
Jack Davis
Paul O Connor
Floyd Riebe
Jerrol Custer
James Curtis Jenkins
Dennis David
Saundra Spencer
Dean Andrews
Carolyn Arnold
Janet Conforto
Charles Crenshaw
Cyril Wecht
Marita Lorenz
Nelson Delgado
Fletcher Prouty
Edwin Walker
Nancy Lee Fenner
Madeleine Brown
Albert Bogard
Richard Randolph Carr
Saint John Hunt
Waggoner Carr
Kenneth Croy
John Manchester
Perry Russo
Edith Whitworth
Esther Mash
Delphine Roberts
Roy Eugene Vaughn
Thayer Waldo
William Walter

[David Von Pein]

8 minutes ago, John Iacoletti said:

What utter BS.

Just a sample of the "lying" witnesses according to DVP and his fellow ideologues:

Arnold Rowland
Roger Craig
Carolyn Walther
Jean Hill
Vickie Adams
Ed Hoffman
Julia Ann Mercer
Gordon Arnold
Ricky White
Rose Cheramie
Acquilla Clemons
Bernard Haire
Sylvia Odio
O.P. Wright
Bardwell Odum
Seth Kantor
Butch Burroughs
W.R. (Dub) Stark
Louis Cortinas
Tom Mullins, Emmett Hollingshead, and J.B. "Shorty" Lewis
James A. Andrews
T. F. White
Fred Moore
John Elrod
Jack Davis
Paul O Connor
Floyd Riebe
Jerrol Custer
James Curtis Jenkins
Dennis David
Saundra Spencer
Dean Andrews
Carolyn Arnold
Janet Conforto
Charles Crenshaw
Cyril Wecht
Marita Lorenz
Nelson Delgado
Fletcher Prouty
Edwin Walker
Nancy Lee Fenner
Madeleine Brown
Albert Bogard
Richard Randolph Carr
Saint John Hunt
Waggoner Carr
Kenneth Croy
John Manchester
Perry Russo
Edith Whitworth
Esther Mash
Delphine Roberts
Roy Eugene Vaughn
Thayer Waldo
William Walter

You're out of your mind if you truly think that I (or ANY other LNer) thinks ALL of those people on your silly list are to be labelled as "l-i-a-r-s".

The only people who I would label as l-i-a-r-s on that list would be Roger Craig, Perry Russo, and Jean Hill. (And all 3 of them are, of course, told PROVABLE lies.)

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by David Von Pein

[John Iacoletti]

2 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

The only people who I would label as l-i-a-r-s on that list would be, of course, Roger Craig and Jean Hill.

 

So much for "zero l-i-a-r-s".  That was fast.

Edited November 8, 2023 by John Iacoletti

[David Von Pein]

I added Russo too.

[David Von Pein]

18 minutes ago, John Iacoletti said:

So much for "zero l-i-a-r-s".  That was fast.

Better read my quote again, Mr. Conspiracy. I never said there were "Zero L-i-a-r-s" in the whole case. What I said was this....

"I require a total of 0 (Zero) l-i-a-r-s (not counting Lee Oswald) in order for my Lone Assassin position to be supported and maintained."

The above statement is certainly still 100% true even with L-i-a-r-s like Russo, Hill, and Craig in the mix. I can easily maintain and support my LN position even without those 3 people ever surfacing in any discussion.

Can CTers maintain and support THEIR position with only THREE measly l-i-a-r-s in the mix? Not a chance. You need at least ten times that many (if not more).

P.S. -- People that I think were just simply "wrong" about something don't go into my "L-i-a-r-s" list. Maybe that's something that CTers like you, John, should learn.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by David Von Pein

[John Iacoletti]

Your backpedaling is noted.  You maintain (not support) your positions because you ignore anything that doesn't fit them.  And that includes calling witnesses the l-word.

P.S. I'm glad you accept the witnesses (like Rowland) who saw two people on the sixth floor, and that people like Hoffman and Gordon Arnold saw or heard gunmen behind the picket fence, and that people like Adams and Carolyn Arnold had their testimonies altered.

Edited November 8, 2023 by John Iacoletti

[David Von Pein]

27 minutes ago, John Iacoletti said:

P.S. I'm glad you accept the witnesses (like Rowland) who saw two people on the sixth floor, and that people like Hoffman and Gordon Arnold saw or heard gunmen behind the picket fence, and that people like Adams and Carolyn Arnold had their testimonies altered.

I don't accept any of the claims by any of those people, Mr. Conspiracy.

They were all "wrong", but not necessarily L-words.

Just like the many Parkland witnesses who said they saw a huge hole in the back of JFK's head. I have never called any of those witnesses the L-word. But they were all "wrong". And they were provably wrong too, with the autopsy X-rays and photos providing the proof (for all time) that they were wrong.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by David Von Pein

[John Iacoletti]

...or the x-rays and photos (or the interpretation of same) are "wrong".  But that's a nice dodge.

So, I guess now all Alan has to do is just say that the people weren't l-word-ing about the curtain rods, they were just wrong.  And your accusation becomes moot.

And we're still faced with 3 is not equal to zero.

[Alan Ford]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

I don't accept any of the claims by any of those people, Mr. Conspiracy.

They were all "wrong", but not necessarily L-words.

Just like the dozens of Parkland witnesses who said they saw a huge hole in the back of JFK's head. I have never called any of those witnesses the L-word. But they were all "wrong". And they were provably wrong too, with the autopsy X-rays and photos providing the proof that they were wrong.

Let's meet each other half way, Mr. Von Pein! You've been claiming for years that There is no evidence any curtain rods were found in the Depository after the assassination. In this, as the foregoing pages have amply illustrated to your intense discomfort, you have been provably wrong. Note: I have not yet said you are necessarily an L-word. I'm too much of a gentleman to do that.

However! Here's the deal: next time you trot out your provably wrong claim that There is no evidence any curtain rods were found in the Depository after the assassination, WITHOUT mentioning your utter inability to explain away evidence pointing precisely that way, you will be provably trying to mislead your reader. And we will be fully justified in deploying the L-word.

👍