A new look at paper bags, curtain rods, and Oswald

[Jean Ceulemans]

 

* IMAGES deleted to save space*

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

And another question, the Curtain Rod story by W.B. Frazier was known from day 1, LHO denied it, so why would they (DPD / FBI / SS) wait almost 4 months to check it out (at the Paine's and the Beckley-room) ?  

Unless they didn't wait that long ?

Of course they didn't. They established on Day 1 that two curtain rods were missing from the Paine garage. So: not a documentary peep about this fact. It's the great big non-barking dog.

And then! A pair of curtain rods are discovered in the Depository by an employee.

Panic.

[Marcus Fuller]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:15 AM, Alan Ford said:

And then! A pair of curtain rods are discovered in the Depository by an employee.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned Alan. I did go through the thread but couldn't see anything. Is there any further information on the actual finding of the curtain rods at the TSBD? Like who or when etc? I've got a copy of the form that Agent Howlett filled out but figured I'd ask 

[Pat Speer]

1 minute ago, Marcus Fuller said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned Alan. I did go through the thread but couldn't see anything. Is there any further information on the actual finding of the curtain rods at the TSBD? Like who or when etc? I've got a copy of the form that Agent Howlett filled out but figured I'd ask 

People like myself and Alan should be careful about asserting as fact the things we think are likely. I agree with Alan that it seems likely Howlett was given the rods by someone either during or after his sixth floor re-enactments in December, but it is not a fact. At least not yet. 

[Pat Speer]

On 11/9/2023 at 3:27 PM, Jean Ceulemans said:

And another question, the Curtain Rod story by W.B. Frazier was known from day 1, LHO denied it, so why would they (DPD / FBI / SS) wait almost 4 months to check it out (at the Paine's and the Beckley-room) ?  

Unless they didn't wait that long ?

Well, I don't know, but, even - and if only - out of curiosity, I'd like to find out. 

Alan will probably correct me, but my recollection is that Michael Paine told them he looked and the curtain rods were still there. Only it turned out he had in mind a different package entirely, one holding some blinds. Oops. 

[Alan Ford]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

People like myself and Alan should be careful about asserting as fact the things we think are likely. I agree with Alan that it seems likely Howlett was given the rods by someone either during or after his sixth floor re-enactments in December, but it is not a fact. At least not yet. 

Fair enough, Mr. Speer, but it is a fact that two actually existing curtain rods were submitted for testing for Mr. Oswald's prints eight days before two curtain rods were 'discovered' on the record in the Paine garage. It is also a fact that the paperwork on this has broken the collective Warren Gullible brain.

I think it's valid for us to put 2 and 2 together and come up with TSBD. No other explanation comes close.

[Bill Fite]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but it might be of some interest:

 

Wednesday, November 20, 1963, 10:30 a.m., CST—Oak Cliff Section of Dallas, Texas. Ralph Leon Yates, employed as a refrigeration mechanic by the Texas Butcher Supply Company. As he was driving on the R.L. Thornton Freeway, he saw an individual hitchhiking near the Beckley Avenue entrance to the Freeway in Oak Cliff. Yates stopped to give the hitchhiker a ride, suggesting that the man place a package, somewhere between 4 and 4.5 feet in length and wrapped in brown paper, in the back of the truck. The individual preferred to keep it close to him, although he maintained it contained “curtain rods.” Yates’s passenger then asked a series of curious questions, considering that the President was coming to Dallas within 48—50 hours. Did Yates think, the man asked, if the president could be assassinated, and if so, could it be done by someone placed in a tall building with a high-powered rifle? The man showed Yates a photograph of an individual holding a rifle (unknown whether or not this was one of Lee Oswald’s “backyard photos,” as Yates was driving on the highway and did not take a good look—nor was he asked by anyone when he reported the event), and asked if such a man with such a rifle could kill the president. Yates was also asked if the motorcade route had been made public and if Yates thought it could be subject to change. Yates told his passenger that it could possibly be changed for security purposes. Yates dropped the man off where he requested: at the corner of Houston and Elm Street, where the Texas School Book Depository, housed in the Sexton Building on the northwest corner of the intersection, stood. Yates last saw the man as he was carrying the package from Houston Street across Elm Street. When Yates returned to his workplace, still on November 20, he reported the strange event and conversation to co-worker Dempsey Jones (do not bother looking for either name in the Warren Report or in the 26 volumes). At such time as Oswald’s photographs hit the newsstands on or after November 22nd, Ralph Yates saw the photos and realized that was his passenger, and assumed that the package was “the gun.” He believed, in fact, that his passenger was “identical with Oswald,” but was concerned for the safety of his wife and children. Notwithstanding, he gave the FBI a complete recitation of events on November 26th, again on December 10, and again on January 3, 1964. (John F. “Jay” Harrison’s Genealogical Archive; FBI FD-302s, and summation and extrapolations from FBI reports published in James W. Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died & Why It Matters, pp. 351—354)

Epilogue: The Yates story is so compelling that the conclusion, which ran until September 3, 1975, needs to be completed in one telling. On January 4, Yates was asked to return to the FBI for a polygraph session, which the FBI considered “inconclusive” (and, as I wrote to a fellow researcher, the word “inconclusive” is in of itself inconclusive). Yates’s wife, Dorothy, would subsequently claim that Yates’s polygraph results showed that he was telling the truth—or at least what he believed to be the truth. But no matter. Yates was admitted, on the same day as the polygraph exam, to Woodlawn Hospital, a Dallas facility for thementally ill.

He was in and out of there for the next three years, and when allowed “home visits” acted like a man whose knowledge had destroyed the hopes of a “family life” for himself, his wife, and children. He was subsequently transferred to Terrell State Hospital (another mentally ill patient facility), and then to the Veterans Hospital in Waco, Texas, and finally to Rusk State Hospital in 1974 (“Rusk” in this context virtually defines ‘irony’).

Yates was medicated with Thorazine and Stelazine, two powerful anti-psychotic drugs which could turn anyone into a zombie, and he was also subjected to more than forty “electric shock” treatments.According to Dorothy Yates, even after those treatments, his memory contained very accurate recall of the events of November 20, 1963. Ralph Leon Yates passed away at Rusk Hospital on September 3, 1975, from congestive heart failure. He was only 39 years old. 

Points of emphasis (bullets mine):

• Initially, a “frame up” of Oswald could not be more craftily staged. The location of the pickup (near Oswald’s boarding room), the drop off point, the curtain rod story, and the bizarre questions about the possibility of murdering the president—all point directly at Lee Oswald.
• Or perhaps “directly at ONE of the Lee Oswalds,” because we know that Lee Oswald was at work in the building at the corner of Houston and Elm while this was happening.
• He was also at work at the time of the restaurant incident, cited at 10:00 a.m.,
• at the time of the Redbird Airport incident involving an Oswald “look-alike,”
• as well as at the time when the Dallas Police were called because two men were aiming rifles over the wooden fence situated on the grassy knoll. They were alleged to be taking “target practice,” but by the time a Dallas

(cut)

Whoever made the statement “the truth shall set you free” never read or heard about Ralph Leon Yates. Then again, neither did the Warren Commission—at least not that we know of.

Brown Ph.D, Walt. Master Chronology of JFK Assassination Book I: Dynasty (pp. 3540-3543). Vigliano Books. Kindle Edition. 

[Bill Fite]

Also as for the paper bags:

November 20, possibly November 21, 1963—time clearly unstated if date not certain. A “Notice of Attempted Delivery” notice was put in the mail box at the Paine residence. It is a tangled embroglio told by Armstrong, but apparently the package could not be delivered because there was $.12 postage due owing on the item. The Dallas Police AND the FBI became aware of the concern, but could not track it down, until a parcel addressed to “Lee Oswald 601 West Nassau Street, Dallas, Texas,” was discovered in the post office. It was they kind of packing bag that one would receive a book—like Bugliosi’s, out on my front porch—in. The contents were a long brown paper bag, open at both ends—something virtually identical to that which had held “the rifle” on November 22, 1963 (allegedly). (John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee: How the CIA Framed Oswald, pp. 783—784) There is no address of “601 West Nassau Street” in Dallas.

[Alan Ford]

53 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

Points of emphasis (bullets mine):

• Initially, a “frame up” of Oswald could not be more craftily staged. The location of the pickup (near Oswald’s boarding room), the drop off point, the curtain rod story, and the bizarre questions about the possibility of murdering the president—all point directly at Lee Oswald.
• Or perhaps “directly at ONE of the Lee Oswalds,” because we know that Lee Oswald was at work in the building at the corner of Houston and Elm while this was happening.
• He was also at work at the time of the restaurant incident, cited at 10:00 a.m.

Re. the Yates story: Mr. Oswald may have been setting himself up (ahead of a false-flag event).

If (as I believe) the TSBD was facilitating a false-flag operation, all post-11/22 assurances from them that Mr. Oswald was at work at that time are less than solid. If they were working with him to facilitate the false-flag incident, he would have been given all latitude to quietly come and go as he needed. Had the false-flag incident gone as planned (i.e. non-lethally), Mr. Truly might well have been telling reporters about Mr. Oswald's having come to work late that Wednesday morning. 'I was surprised, but didn't give it too much thought at the time.'

This would equally hold for the Oswald sighting at Dobbs House snack bar----------a half hour earlier on that Wednesday morning. The only reason for doubting this multiply-witnessed event has always been the assurance from the TSBD side that Mr. Oswald came to work at the normal time that morning.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:06 AM, Pat Speer said:

Alan will probably correct me, but my recollection is that Michael Paine told them he looked and the curtain rods were still there. Only it turned out he had in mind a different package entirely, one holding some blinds. Oops. 

   

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

And let's not jump to any conclusions about some of the corrections 😃😃😃

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Alan Ford]

10 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Michael even had taken them down  "for some reason" / "or something like that"  Ruth was also somewhat evasive about this (see previous post where see says, "you know what they took" etc), It's really odd the whole thing.   It is possible they simply talked about it (after hearing Frazier's story on the package with CR's)  and Michael went in the garage to check them out.   After that it should have been clear to them, but it wasn't clear at all.     

"They never particularly impressed themselves on my recollection", says Mr. Paine of the curtain rods during the run-up to November 22nd.

Fair enough. They're only curtain rods after all.

But the idea that they didn't impress themselves on the consciousness of the 'investigating' authorities after the assassination, such that no one even bothered to check whether any curtain rods had gone missing from the Paine garage, beggars belief.

[Pat Speer]

13 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Michael even had taken them down  "for some reason" / "or something like that"  Ruth was also somewhat evasive about this (see previous post where see says, "you know what they took" etc), It's really odd the whole thing.   It is possible they simply talked about it (after hearing Frazier's story on the package with CR's)  and Michael went in the garage to check them out.   After that it should have been clear to them, but it wasn't clear at all.     

You are correct in that it's smelly as heck. Michael does not remember looking to see if the curtain rods are still there, but Ruth kinda sorta remembers him looking and in any event they both think they were in a package, and guess what? The package on the shelf did not contain curtain rods and the only curtain rods found in the garage were loose curtain rods. Smells, don't it?

 

 

Mr. JENNER - Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE - I believe so.

Mr. JENNER - You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. PAINE - I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. JENNER - Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?

Mrs. PAINE - He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. JENNER - When did this take place?

Mrs. PAINE - After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. JENNER - And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE - It is my recollection it was.

Mr. JENNER - What about the venetian blind package?

Mrs. PAINE - Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. JENNER - You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?

Mrs. PAINE - A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator COOPER - At any time?

Mrs. PAINE - Did I, personally?

Senator COOPER - Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE - It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator COOPER - What?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator COOPER - Both of them?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Or just one?

Mrs. PAINE - Both.

Senator COOPER - Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. PAINE - No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator COOPER - But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. PAINE - It was not my most pressing--

Senator COOPER - What?

Mrs. PAINE - It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator COOPER - I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator COOPER - Didn't that lead you-Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. PAINE - It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator COOPER - I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. PAINE - So I did not.

Senator COOPER - You never did do it?

Mrs. PAINE - I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. JENNER - By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE - I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. JENNER - May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. PAINE - Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. JENNER - In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER - Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"--

Mrs. PAINE - "And thin."

Mr. JENNER - What is the next word?

Mrs. PAINE - "Curtain rods."

[Alan Ford]

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

You are correct in that it's smelly as heck. Michael does not remember looking to see if the curtain rods are still there, but Ruth kinda sorta remembers him looking and in any event they both think they were in a package, and guess what? The package on the shelf did not contain curtain rods and the only curtain rods found in the garage were loose curtain rods. Smells, don't it?

A masterclass in evasion!

Mr. JENNER - Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?

Mrs. PAINE - I believe so.

Mr. JENNER - You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. PAINE - I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. JENNER - Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?

Mrs. PAINE - He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. JENNER - When did this take place?

Mrs. PAINE - After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. JENNER - And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE - It is my recollection it was.

Mr. JENNER - What about the venetian blind package?

Mrs. PAINE - Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. JENNER - You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?

Mrs. PAINE - A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator COOPER - At any time?

Mrs. PAINE - Did I, personally?

Senator COOPER - Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE - It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator COOPER - What?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator COOPER - Both of them?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Or just one?

Mrs. PAINE - Both.

Senator COOPER - Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. PAINE - No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator COOPER - But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. PAINE - It was not my most pressing--

Senator COOPER - What?

Mrs. PAINE - It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator COOPER - I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Senator COOPER - Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator COOPER - Didn't that lead you-Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. PAINE - It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator COOPER - I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. PAINE - So I did not.

Senator COOPER - You never did do it?

Mrs. PAINE - I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. JENNER - By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE - I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. JENNER - May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. PAINE - Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. JENNER - In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. PAINE - To the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER - Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"--

Mrs. PAINE - "And thin."

Mr. JENNER - What is the next word?

Mrs. PAINE - "Curtain rods."

[Pat Speer]

Ruth's testimony in D.C. continued. 

Mr. JENNER - There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the venetian blinds?

Mrs. PAINE - I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.

(Note that the photograph just shown Mrs. Paine is presumed to have been taken by FBI photographer Arthur Carter, under the direction of FBI exhibits chief Leo Gauthier, on 3-10-64. (CD897) Note also that this photograph fails to show the light brown package of curtain rods Mrs. Paine recalls creating--that is, the package precisely matching Buell Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle's description of the package they saw Oswald carrying on the morning of November 22nd. Now note that Mrs. Paine has suddenly reversed course--that she no longer feels sure she wrapped these curtain rods in a separate package, and now thinks she may have wrapped them up with some Venetian blinds. And, finally, note that she admits this is a rationalization--an explanation she is offering to explain why the package she thought was there, appears to no longer be there, and why she can make out but one package in the photo. Well, this was precisely the kind of testimony Mr. Jenner had asked her to avoid.)

Mr. JENNER - You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Do you?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. They were not round.

Mr. JENNER - They were flat and slender?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - They were not at all heavy?

Mrs. PAINE - That is right.

Mr. JENNER - They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE - They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.

Mr. JENNER - May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?

Mrs. PAINE - You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.

Mr. JENNER - I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?

Mrs. PAINE - You are looking down.

Mr. JENNER - Now, where was the break?

Mrs. PAINE - The break?

Mr. JENNER - You said they were extension.

Mrs. PAINE - That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.

Mr. JENNER - You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - The double line indicates what on either side?

Mrs. PAINE - That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.

Mr. JENNER - Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER - While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.

Mrs. PAINE - You are perfectly welcome to them.

Mr. JENNER - Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine do not open the package until we arrive?

Mrs. PAINE - I won't even look, then.

 

Well, what's that they say about a good attorney's never asking a witness a question he doesn't know the answer to? Jenner really screwed up. In the DC testimony of Michael and Ruth he built up that Oswald did not take any curtain rods because THE PACKAGE containing these rods had been spotted in the Paine's garage. Only...when they went to Dallas and actually looked in the garage? No such package. Loose rods. But no such package. As a consequence there is nothing to suggest that 1) the loose rods had been there the whole time, and 2) that Oswald had not taken a package containing curtain rods from the garage. 

As noted in my chapter on the curtain rod story, this is but one problem with the government's investigation of the story. With two other problems being that 1) the curtain rods in Oswald's rooming house WERE damaged and needed replacing as of their first being photographed after the assassination and 2) Alan Ford's discovery that the DPD form supposedly showing that the rods recovered by Jenner were tested was altered to hide that they were actually tested before their purported discovery. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Pat Speer