A Military Takeover Of The United States?

[Michael Hogan]

Dealey Plaza should be recognized as a highly effective assault on civilian control over the military.

Correspondingly, the Warren Commission can be seen as a delegation of the civilian leaders of our country accepting the terms laid down to them by the military. The military conceded one condition which clearly was in the initial planning; they dropped their requirement for an invasion of Cuba. Beyond that concession, the assassination and the inquiry are best recognized for what they were: a military takeover of the United States. It was nothing less.

If we are to understand and bring under control the forces which are shaping today's America and are endeavoring to shape our future, we cannot rest with the official version of the killing of John Kennedy. The model of explanation offered here explains the available data. We must employ this tool of analysis until or unless another one is offered which better explains the evidence.

If we cannot have the truth once and for all about the government's murder of John Kennedy, if the warfare interests in our government are so powerful that they cannot be questioned about such things, then let us have an end to the pretense that this is a government of the people.

If the American people choose to do nothing about what was done to John Kennedy and about the subtle conversion of their country from a democracy into a thinly disguised version of the warfare state, then the republic is lost and we will never see it again in our time.

In any event, we need no longer pretend that there is any mystery left about the assassination of John Kennedy. The cold war was the biggest business in America, worth eighty billion dollars a year as well as tremendous power to men in Washington. The President was murdered because he was genuinely seeking peace in a corrupt world. As tired as we are of the horror of the subject, all of us must address ourselves honestly to the meaning and implications of the assassination of John Kennedy, or all of us will pay the price of living in tyranny.

Jim Garrison, A Heritage of Stone

G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1970

[James Richards]

There have been rumors over the last few years, that the DOD

had drawn up plans to use Army troops to put down any uprised

following the assassination. The question is, were these troops already

in the air prior to the assassination? The code name given was "Operation

Big Lift" which I have on 16mm footage. According to the DOD, this

operation was to send US troops over to Germany.

johnw

John,

Troops were indeed sent to Germany. In fact from about October of 1963, all 13,000 from Fort Hood plus about 3,000 support troops were sent to Frankfurt.

This image below shows Captain Chester Lamb and Lt. Col. John Ginder from 'Op Big Lift' going over flight plans.

FWIW.

James

[Robert Howard]

There have been rumors over the last few years, that the DOD

had drawn up plans to use Army troops to put down any uprised

following the assassination. The question is, were these troops already

in the air prior to the assassination? The code name given was "Operation

Big Lift" which I have on 16mm footage. According to the DOD, this

operation was to send US troops over to Germany.

johnw

John,

Troops were indeed sent to Germany. In fact from about October of 1963, all 13,000 from Fort Hood plus about 3,000 support troops were sent to Frankfurt.

This image below shows Captain Chester Lamb and Lt. Col. John Ginder from 'Op Big Lift' going over flight plans.

FWIW.

James

I would think, to any serious student or investigator of the assassination in "real time," that one of the biggest sources of frustration, are the initial attempts to ascertain "exactly" what happened, not just in regards to November 22, 1963 but the year itself. In other words, the "leading up to" can, arguably present as much factual relevance to Dealey Plaza, as the events taking place that day.

Operation Big Lift is conceivably an understated aspect of pre-assassination machinations. If there were, as many individuals believe, a direct link between the program and Dealey Plaza it would only reinforce the reality that Dealey Plaza was one big black-op. The reference point connecting Dealey Plaza and Operation Big Lift is a valid one, it's just so "outlandish" [yet probably true] the common folk [see No 2 below] can't, or don't want to believe it.

As a contribution to the thread, I would mention that there are 3 types of people in America.

1. The ones who don't read the newspaper or watch the "news," because it is a collection of lies, mis-truths and spin.

2. The ones who do and believe everything generated by the news media as a generalized version of reality.

3. Those who fall "in-between" 1 and 2, but take it, with a much needed grain of salt.

It is "interesting" to look at the Americans who believed there was a conspiracy, then and see how they were portrayed in the media, as a result.

Those who had quite a view of the facts and believed there was a conspiracy included the new president after Dealey Plaza L.B.J.,

then, Atty Gen. Robert Kennedy, former V.P. Richard Nixon and the soon to be deposed Premier Kruschshev.

Their specific comments, views regarding same were never given a "great deal" of mainstream media attention. So no media slam on them re their views on the assassination.

Then there are the individuals who were "reverse slam-dunked" by the media for echoing the same sentiment

New Orleans DA Jim Garrison

Former liason between the White House & Pentagon Col Fletcher Prouty

Former Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura

well, you get the point.......

Can anyone elucidate re Operation Big-Lift?

[Ron Ecker]

I can see a worst-case scenario in which the military was fully prepared to take over openly on 11/22/63, depending on how things went in Dallas. Operation Big Lift would be a part of this, and could also serve as an excuse for Maxwell Taylor to be at Fort Hood (also serving as host to Israel's visiting Rabin) and in Dallas, on his way home from the Honolulu Conference.

This takeover would be in the guise of martial law imposed in the wake of two atrocious "Castro terrorists acts" crippling the government: the hit on JFK and the bombing of the flight that was carrying almost the entire Cabinet to Japan. An invasion of Cuba would ensue, with VP Johnson in the meantime being eased into power in a return to "Constitutional" government.

The military would be seen as having saved our democracy.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Ron Ecker

[Jim Root]

From a previous post but of interest to the idea of a military takeover, the position of Commander and Chief and "civilian control."

Some of you may recall that I have posted two letters, one from General Walker to the Association of Graduates of West Point and the other from John J. McCloy to Edwin Walker. By coincidnce these two men shared written communications some five months before the assassination of JFK.

The spark for these two letters was the fact that John J. McCloy was presented the Sylvanus Thayer Award by the Association of Graduates on May 25, 1963.

Sylvanus Thayer was the Superintendent of West Point from 1818 - 1833. When assigned to the Superintendency the students mutinied when Thayer replaced the previous superintendent. This mutiny led to the placing of West Point under strict military disipline and the cadets from this point forward were considered soldiers subject to military law and discipline.

This mutiny occurred on Nov. 22, 1818 exactly 145 years before the assassination of John F. Kennedy. In some ways this mutiny led to the assendency of a professional military elite within the United States. It was this event that began Sylvanus Thayer's march to becomming the "Father of West Point."

Thayer would later resign as the superintendent of West Point in a dispute with the President of the United States in 1833. At that time Andrew Jackson was fearful of the rise of a military class within the United States and was constantly overrulling Thayer's positions that delt with the corp of cadets at West point.

Thayer was adament that the professional soldier served at the will of Civilian Authority in American but Thayer was also quick to point out that the President, although the Commander and Chief, was only a temporary custodian of the powers he controlled. Walker alluded to this same position in his letter dealing with McCloy.

I have always found it interesting that John J. McCloy and Edwin Walker exchanged letters five months before the assassination of JFK. I now find it interesting that the subject of their letters center around Sylvanus Thayer whose own history with "Civilian Authority" would seem to suggest that he believed that the power of the President is only temporary. The fact that Thayer's assendency in West Point leadership lore began with a mutiny on November 22 is perhaps only a coincidence but one that I find interesting when dealing with events that surround McCloy, Walker and Maxwell Taylor.

Another in this series of coincidences then occured on June 5, 1963, the same day that Edwin Walker penned his letter dealing with McCloy to the Association of Graduates.

Maxwell Taylor would talk about the ascendency of the professional military man and Sylvanus Thayer at the graduation commencement at West Point. Taylor spoke about the "emancipation" and "independence of the American Soldier" making the statements "If recognized and respected abroad, at home the achievements of the American Soldier are often ignored...We must perhaps progress further before there will be wholehearted acceptance at home of the continuing need for a large and respected military profession in the United States...you are about to become an American Soldier, one of the band who, having emancipated themselves from foreign authority, now set the dominant tone in matters of national defense, stategy, tactics, and advanced weaponry...He (the American Soldier) must have a just appreciation of our national objectives and of the role of military power in attaining them...He must understand the proper relation of the military in support of civil policy, and comport himself in accord with the code which has always guided the American Soldier in the past - loyal support of the Commander-in-Chief and the civil authority which he represents...the voice of the American Soldier is entitled to a serious hearing in our national councils...But when civil autority makes the decision, it then becomes his own decision - therafter to support loyally and to execute fathfully in the tradition of the American Soldier."

Knowing that at the time of this speech Taylor was in a serious dispute with Kennedy over the Limited Test Ban Treaty I find the speech to be enlightening. Taylor, the linguist, uses the word "COMPORT" when speaking of "loyal support of the Commander-in-Chief and the civil authority which he represents." These two groups, the Commander in Chief (Kennedy) and the Civil Authority (others in government including John J. McCloy) were not alligned on this important issue dealing with the proliferation of nuclear weapons, there development and the testing of these weapons. Yet Taylor speaks of comporting himself or bringing these two distinct groups together or into alignment. On the issue of Limited versus Comprehensive Test Ban Treaties the two would only be brought into allignment after the assassination of JFK when once again John J. McCloy would find himself in a leadership role in this effort.

At the end of his speech Taylor points out that "when civil autority makes the decision, it then becomes his own decision - therafter to support loyally and to execute fathfully in the tradition of the American Soldier."

I believe that it may be of importance to understand that at that exact time in history, while Taylor was in a dispute with his Commander and Chief, that he (Taylor) would choose the words that suggest that the American Soldier must follow the directives of "civil authority" and to "execute faithfully in the tradition of the American Soldier" rather than the using the wording "Commander in Chief."

Just five days after Taylor's speech was spoken at West Point, Kennedy would announce his new position on nuclear talks with the Soviets. This to the dismay of both Maxwell Taylor and John J. McCloy!

Jim Root

[Myra Bronstein]

There have been rumors over the last few years, that the DOD

had drawn up plans to use Army troops to put down any uprised

following the assassination. The question is, were these troops already

in the air prior to the assassination? The code name given was "Operation

Big Lift" which I have on 16mm footage. According to the DOD, this

operation was to send US troops over to Germany.

johnw

I must be out of phase.

Was "Big Lift" (if true) meant to deal with possible uprising in Europe or in the US?

[Stan Wilbourne]

Here's how I think the assassination may have happened:

Kennedy had an array of enemies. A president always does. Each faction of enemies was used in some way in the plot to kill him. That way, the dog continually chases its tail. Research never gets very far. Or, at least, moves very, very slowly.

The Mafia

Texas

Anti-Castro Cubans

The Military

The CIA

Researchers see someone involved from one of these groups (or others) and wrongly conclude that is who ordered the murder.

But, I think those that gave the order to kill JFK were insulated and removed themselves from the actual process of carrying out his assassination. It's the old magician's trick of having the audience watch the right hand while the left performs the "magic".

Now, what was the most powerful element in the US in 1963? Who was the most powerful man of that element? Was it/he at odds with Kennedy? Over what? Would this powerful man/element have had the use and ties to Texas, The Mafia, Cubans, the Military? Intell?

The research, intelligence, and passion I see on this forum amazes me. I am a lout compared. My view of this crime continues to evolve and change. Like Cliff and Tony Soprano, I've lost a lot of pets over the years.

John McCloy and Allen Dulles, I think, were central to the plot. But there was a higher power at work.

Who did these two work for?

[Charles Drago]

There have been rumors over the last few years, that the DOD

had drawn up plans to use Army troops to put down any uprised

following the assassination. The question is, were these troops already

in the air prior to the assassination? The code name given was "Operation

Big Lift" which I have on 16mm footage. According to the DOD, this

operation was to send US troops over to Germany.

johnw

I must be out of phase.

Was "Big Lift" (if true) meant to deal with possible uprising in Europe or in the US?

Myra, does the code name ECOMCON ring a bell?

It is in fact a plot device created by Fletcher Knebel and Charles W. Bailey II in their novel "Seven Days in May," an "exercise" in which control of all American radio and television broadcasts would be assumed by the Pentagon, while the president would be in a secure location.

It was also a critical component in the fictional JCS's plan to overthrow this country's civilian government, led by a chief executive whose plan for unilateral nuclear disarmament was, shall we say, less than popular with the brass.

It is said that JFK at the very least admired the novel and made the White House and other USG facilities available to the filmmakers bringing the work to the screen.

Knebel especially was an insider of the nth degree. Apparently he knew whereof he wrote.

Beware of any Preakness pools.

[Myra Bronstein]

Here's how I think the assassination may have happened:

Kennedy had an array of enemies. A president always does. Each faction of enemies was used in some way in the plot to kill him. That way, the dog continually chases its tail. Research never gets very far. Or, at least, moves very, very slowly.

The Mafia

Texas

Anti-Castro Cubans

The Military

The CIA

Researchers see someone involved from one of these groups (or others) and wrongly conclude that is who ordered the murder.

But, I think those that gave the order to kill JFK were insulated and removed themselves from the actual process of carrying outhis assassination. It's the old magician's trick of having the audience watch the right hand while the left performs the "magic".

Now, what was the most powerful element in the US in 1963? Who was the most powerful man of that element? Was it/he at odds with Kennedy? Over what? Would this powerful man/element have had the use and ties to Texas, The Mafia, Cubans, the Military? Intell?

...

John McCloy and Allen Dulles, I think, were central to the plot. But there was a higher power at work.

Who did these two work for?

Good overview. I'll add that there were higher powerS at work, spanning the "military industrial" complex that President Eisenhower warned about after waking up from his eight-year Rip Van-Winkle nap to hand the leash of a rabid dog to President Kennedy (yeah, I know Ike was sick a lot), after the heir apparent, Nixon, blew it in spite of Prescott's string-pulling.

Industrial--First and foremost. At one level nascent war-profiteers/Johnson puppeteers Brown & Root/Halliburton and Bell Helicoptor. Also oil moguls HL Hunt & Sons and Clint Murchison and Sid Richardson (all from Texas). At a higher level bankers like Brown Bros Harriman (and JP Morgan--now JP Morgan Chase--still smarting over their failure to overthrow FDR?). At an even higher level the Rockefellers.

Legal--The first level of defense for the Industrial faction. McCloy, who I knew nothing about before this thread, was a Harvard (Ivy League CIA) lawyer for the ruling class, head of the World Bank (ahem, a predecessor to Wolfowitz...). He does seem to have a helluva pedigree--purebred fascist. Ah prairie-xxxx, I'll just say it; he was a Nazi.

Banking--And money laundering. Especially laundering. McCloy was president of the Rockefeller's Chase Manhattan Bank.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html

" McCloy had long been involved in the murky world of espionage, intrigue and Nazis. He spent the decade of the 1930s working out of Paris. Much of his time was spent on a law case stemming from German sabotage in World War I. His investigation took him to Berlin, where he shared a box with Hitler at the 1936 Olympics. He was in contact with Rudolph Hess before the Nazi leader made a mysterious flight to England in 1941....When JFK moved to lower the oil depletion allowance, he incurred the displeasure of John McCloy, whose clients' profits would be trimmed. Hoover, Dulles and McCloy did not belong to the Kennedy fan club. When the president was shot, Hoover controlled the field investigation, and Dulles and McCloy helped mold the final verdict of the Warren Commission."

Then there's Prescott Bush and his laundering activities for the Nazis via Union Bank.

Intelligence--The covert enforcement/assassination branch of the Industrial faction, including friends of Prescott like the treasonous Dulles Bros, and comprised of the NSA/CIA/individual military branches. The co-second level of defense, along with the Military.

Propaganda--CIA Mockingbirds in the media. Were there actual PR firms involved?

Military--The overt enforcement branch of the Industrial faction via Joint Chiefs (?) who were still fuming over the President's rejection of Operation Northwoods and dumping of Chairman Lemnitzer. The co-second level of defense, along with the CIA/Mafia.

Others in this thread are discussing the specific individuals possibly involved (like John "the Constitution is just a scrap of paper to me" McCloy). http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccloyJ.htm

"As John D. Rockefeller Jr. told his personal lawyer, Thomas M. Debevoise, "McCloy knows so many people in government

circles... that he might be in the way to get information in various quarters about the matter without seeking it, or

revealing his hand."

Contractors--Hired or duped hit-men/muscle including mobsters and (as Stan noted, and Larry Hancock wrote about in "Someone Would Have Talked") misguided gullible (my terms, not Larry's) anti-Castro Cubans.

Congressional--The front-men for the Industrial fascists. Among them Lyndon Johnson who never would have given up his

Majority Leader position if he didn't know he would quickly advance beyond VP, and good ol' boy "Winkin'" Albert Thomas (both

from Texas).

Organizational 1/National-International--Council on Foreign Relations. "From 1954 to 1970, [McCloy] was chairman of the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations in New York, to be succeeded by David Rockefeller, who had worked closely with him at the Chase Bank. McCloy had a long association with the Rockefeller family, going back to his early Harvard days when he taught the young Rockefeller brothers how to sail. He was also a member of the Draper Committee, formed in 1958 by Eisenhower."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._McCloy

"The earliest origin of the Council stemmed from a working fellowship of distinguished scholars, tasked to brief President

Woodrow Wilson [who was supposedly the first president to extensively use propaganda, and was supposedly admired by Harry (Pendergast puppet/bomb-dropper/CIA creator/World Bank inventor/original Cold Warrier) Truman (the buck really does stop there)] about options for the postwar world when Germany was defeated. Through 1917-18, this academic band, a prominent member of whom was Wilson's closest adviser

Edward M. House, as well as Walter Lippmann, gathered discreetly at 155th Street and Broadway in New York City, to assemble the strategy for the postwar world. This band of scholars then travelled to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919...The Americans who subsequently returned from the conference became drawn to a discreet club of New York financiers and international lawyers who had organized previously in June 1918 and was headed by Elihu Root; this select group called itself the Council on Foreign Relations. They joined this group and the Council was formally established in New York on July 29, 1921, with 108 founding members, including Elihu Root as a leading member and John W. Davis, the personal attorney for J. P. Morgan, as its founding president. Other luminaries included John Foster Dulles, Herbert Lehman, Henry Stimson, Averell Harriman and the Rockefeller family's public relations expert, Ivy Lee.

The Council initially had strong connections to the Morgan interests, such as the lawyer, Paul Cravath, whose pre-eminent New York law firm (later named Cravath, Swaine & Moore) represented Morgan businesses; and a Morgan partner, Russell Leffingwell, later becoming its first chairman. Over time, however, the locus of power shifted inexorably to the Rockefeller family."

Organizational 2/Texas epicenter--Texas & the 8F klan. Texas was of course the nation-state that served as the ideal incubator for evil. "As the historian, Robert A. Caro has pointed out in Lyndon Johnson: The Path to Power: "Texans were elected on December 7, 1931, not only to the Speakership of the House but to the chairmanship of five of its most influential committees, Lyndon Johnson's first day in the Capitol was the day Texas came to power in it - a power that the state was to hold, with only the

briefest interruptions, for more than thirty years."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgroup8F.htm

"The assassination of John F. Kennedy brought an end to this proposal to bring an end to the oil depletion allowance. The

Suite 8F Group also did very well out of the escalation of the Vietnam War. They formed a new company called RMK-BRJ to

obtain these contracts. This included Halliburton who took over Brown & Root in 1962. These contracts included building jet

runways, dredging channels for ships, hospitals, prisons, communications facilities, and building American bases from Da Nang

to Saigon. RMK-BRJ did 97% of the construction work in Vietnam. The other 3% went to local Vietnamese contractors. Between

1965 and 1972 Brown & Root (Halliburton) alone obtained revenues of $380 million from its work in Vietnam.

...

Another company associated with the Suite 8F Group also did well out of the Vietnam War. Bell Helicopter Corporation began

producing the UH-1. It could climb 2,000 feet per minute and could fly at 125 miles per hour for about three hours. It could

carry nine fully equipped soldiers and a crew of four. By 1969 Bell Helicopter Corporation was selling nearly $600 million

worth of helicopters to the United States Military. According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters". "

Alright, just a first stab at a first draft. Many more drafts needed.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[James Richards]

Can anyone elucidate re Operation Big-Lift? (Robert Howard)

Officially, Operation Big Lift was a test of U.S. global strike power. The idea was to be able to send masses of troops to Europe in 72 hours.

The main player running the planning and supervision was Brig. Gen. Keith L. Ware. This is one interesting guy and well worth researching. He was killed in 1968 in a chopper crash in Vietnam.

Ware below.

James

Edited March 2, 2007 by James Richards

[Terry Mauro]

Here's how I think the assassination may have happened:

Kennedy had an array of enemies. A president always does. Each faction of enemies was used in some way in the plot to kill him. That way, the dog continually chases its tail. Research never gets very far. Or, at least, moves very, very slowly.

The Mafia

Texas

Anti-Castro Cubans

The Military

The CIA

Researchers see someone involved from one of these groups (or others) and wrongly conclude that is who ordered the murder.

But, I think those that gave the order to kill JFK were insulated and removed themselves from the actual process of carrying out his assassination. It's the old magician's trick of having the audience watch the right hand while the left performs the "magic".

Now, what was the most powerful element in the US in 1963? Who was the most powerful man of that element? Was it/he at odds with Kennedy? Over what? Would this powerful man/element have had the use and ties to Texas, The Mafia, Cubans, the Military? Intell?

The research, intelligence, and passion I see on this forum amazes me. I am a lout compared. My view of this crime continues to evolve and change. Like Cliff and Tony Soprano, I've lost a lot of pets over the years.

John McCloy and Allen Dulles, I think, were central to the plot. But there was a higher power at work.

Who did these two work for?

******************************************************

"Who did these two work for?"

Rockefeller/Morgan. Why is everybody so afraid to mention, or make the connection to Wall Street? And, I ask for the umpteenth time, "Who had the resources, the collateral, if you will, to contract the deed, cover the tracks, and control all pertinent data, as well as the whole U.S. gov. into doing their bidding? It takes M-O-N-E-Y. Lots of it. The kind that Washington, D.C. couldn't lay claim to in a million years. Why? Because, excuse me but, D.C. is nothing more than a big facade from which to present whatever bills, rules, or regs needed to fool the populace into believing they have a say in what happens in their lives. But, mostly to make it look like the paid lackeys in the congress and the senate have a job to do. When in reality they're the ones deciding, which "sweet" deal will garner them the most money to line their pockets with, by allowing global corporations to ride roughshod over what's left of the planet and all that inhabit it.

And, we pay them with our taxed dollars to do this. To pull the proverbial wool over our eyes.

The world belongs to the Rockefellers, the Morgans, the Rothschildts and the Cecil family. It's their world, after all, to do what they want with it. Their daddies and their forefathers stole, pillaged, and annexed it for them, and for their progeny, ONLY. They're not about to allow some common tripe in on the deal. Follow the cobblestone road, across the Atlantic, and all the way to London, and Venice.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Terry Mauro

[Terry Mauro]

Here's how I think the assassination may have happened:

Kennedy had an array of enemies. A president always does. Each faction of enemies was used in some way in the plot to kill him. That way, the dog continually chases its tail. Research never gets very far. Or, at least, moves very, very slowly.

The Mafia

Texas

Anti-Castro Cubans

The Military

The CIA

Researchers see someone involved from one of these groups (or others) and wrongly conclude that is who ordered the murder.

But, I think those that gave the order to kill JFK were insulated and removed themselves from the actual process of carrying outhis assassination. It's the old magician's trick of having the audience watch the right hand while the left performs the "magic".

Now, what was the most powerful element in the US in 1963? Who was the most powerful man of that element? Was it/he at odds with Kennedy? Over what? Would this powerful man/element have had the use and ties to Texas, The Mafia, Cubans, the Military? Intell?

...

John McCloy and Allen Dulles, I think, were central to the plot. But there was a higher power at work.

Who did these two work for?

Good overview. I'll add that there were higher powerS at work, spanning the "military industrial" complex that President Eisenhower warned about after waking up from his eight-year Rip Van-Winkle nap to hand the leash of a rabid dog to President Kennedy (yeah, I know Ike was sick a lot), after the heir apparent, Nixon, blew it in spite of Prescott's string-pulling.

Industrial--First and foremost. At one level nascent war-profiteers/Johnson puppeteers Brown & Root/Halliburton and Bell Helicoptor. Also oil moguls HL Hunt & Sons and Clint Murchison and Sid Richardson (all from Texas). At a higher level bankers like Brown Bros Harriman (and JP Morgan--now JP Morgan Chase--still smarting over their failure to overthrow FDR?). At an even higher level the Rockefellers.

Legal--The first level of defense for the Industrial faction. McCloy, who I knew nothing about before this thread, was a Harvard (Ivy League CIA) lawyer for the ruling class, head of the World Bank (ahem, a predecessor to Wolfowitz...). He does seem to have a helluva pedigree--purebred fascist. Ah prairie-xxxx, I'll just say it; he was a Nazi.

Banking--And money laundering. Especially laundering. McCloy was president of the Rockefeller's Chase Manhattan Bank.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html

" McCloy had long been involved in the murky world of espionage, intrigue and Nazis. He spent the decade of the 1930s working out of Paris. Much of his time was spent on a law case stemming from German sabotage in World War I. His investigation took him to Berlin, where he shared a box with Hitler at the 1936 Olympics. He was in contact with Rudolph Hess before the Nazi leader made a mysterious flight to England in 1941....When JFK moved to lower the oil depletion allowance, he incurred the displeasure of John McCloy, whose clients' profits would be trimmed. Hoover, Dulles and McCloy did not belong to the Kennedy fan club. When the president was shot, Hoover controlled the field investigation, and Dulles and McCloy helped mold the final verdict of the Warren Commission."

Then there's Prescott Bush and his laundering activities for the Nazis via Union Bank.

Intelligence--The covert enforcement/assassination branch of the Industrial faction, including friends of Prescott like the treasonous Dulles Bros, and comprised of the NSA/CIA/individual military branches. The co-second level of defense, along with the Military.

Propaganda--CIA Mockingbirds in the media. Were there actual PR firms involved?

Military--The overt enforcement branch of the Industrial faction via Joint Chiefs (?) who were still fuming over the President's rejection of Operation Northwoods and dumping of Chairman Lemnitzer. The co-second level of defense, along with the CIA/Mafia.

Others in this thread are discussing the specific individuals possibly involved (like John "the Constitution is just a scrap of paper to me" McCloy). http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccloyJ.htm

"As John D. Rockefeller Jr. told his personal lawyer, Thomas M. Debevoise, "McCloy knows so many people in government

circles... that he might be in the way to get information in various quarters about the matter without seeking it, or

revealing his hand."

Contractors--Hired or duped hit-men/muscle including mobsters and (as Stan noted, and Larry Hancock wrote about in "Someone Would Have Talked") misguided gullible (my terms, not Larry's) anti-Castro Cubans.

Congressional--The front-men for the Industrial fascists. Among them Lyndon Johnson who never would have given up his

Majority Leader position if he didn't know he would quickly advance beyond VP, and good ol' boy "Winkin'" Albert Thomas (both

from Texas).

Organizational 1/National-International--Council on Foreign Relations. "From 1954 to 1970, [McCloy] was chairman of the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations in New York, to be succeeded by David Rockefeller, who had worked closely with him at the Chase Bank. McCloy had a long association with the Rockefeller family, going back to his early Harvard days when he taught the young Rockefeller brothers how to sail. He was also a member of the Draper Committee, formed in 1958 by Eisenhower."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._McCloy

"The earliest origin of the Council stemmed from a working fellowship of distinguished scholars, tasked to brief President

Woodrow Wilson [who was supposedly the first president to extensively use propaganda, and was supposedly admired by Harry (Pendergast puppet/bomb-dropper/CIA creator/World Bank inventor/original Cold Warrier) Truman (the buck really does stop there)] about options for the postwar world when Germany was defeated. Through 1917-18, this academic band, a prominent member of whom was Wilson's closest adviser

Edward M. House, as well as Walter Lippmann, gathered discreetly at 155th Street and Broadway in New York City, to assemble the strategy for the postwar world. This band of scholars then travelled to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919...The Americans who subsequently returned from the conference became drawn to a discreet club of New York financiers and international lawyers who had organized previously in June 1918 and was headed by Elihu Root; this select group called itself the Council on Foreign Relations. They joined this group and the Council was formally established in New York on July 29, 1921, with 108 founding members, including Elihu Root as a leading member and John W. Davis, the personal attorney for J. P. Morgan, as its founding president. Other luminaries included John Foster Dulles, Herbert Lehman, Henry Stimson, Averell Harriman and the Rockefeller family's public relations expert, Ivy Lee.

The Council initially had strong connections to the Morgan interests, such as the lawyer, Paul Cravath, whose pre-eminent New York law firm (later named Cravath, Swaine & Moore) represented Morgan businesses; and a Morgan partner, Russell Leffingwell, later becoming its first chairman. Over time, however, the locus of power shifted inexorably to the Rockefeller family."

Organizational 2/Texas epicenter--Texas & the 8F klan. Texas was of course the nation-state that served as the ideal incubator for evil. "As the historian, Robert A. Caro has pointed out in Lyndon Johnson: The Path to Power: "Texans were elected on December 7, 1931, not only to the Speakership of the House but to the chairmanship of five of its most influential committees, Lyndon Johnson's first day in the Capitol was the day Texas came to power in it - a power that the state was to hold, with only the

briefest interruptions, for more than thirty years."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgroup8F.htm

"The assassination of John F. Kennedy brought an end to this proposal to bring an end to the oil depletion allowance. The

Suite 8F Group also did very well out of the escalation of the Vietnam War. They formed a new company called RMK-BRJ to

obtain these contracts. This included Halliburton who took over Brown & Root in 1962. These contracts included building jet

runways, dredging channels for ships, hospitals, prisons, communications facilities, and building American bases from Da Nang

to Saigon. RMK-BRJ did 97% of the construction work in Vietnam. The other 3% went to local Vietnamese contractors. Between

1965 and 1972 Brown & Root (Halliburton) alone obtained revenues of $380 million from its work in Vietnam.

...

Another company associated with the Suite 8F Group also did well out of the Vietnam War. Bell Helicopter Corporation began

producing the UH-1. It could climb 2,000 feet per minute and could fly at 125 miles per hour for about three hours. It could

carry nine fully equipped soldiers and a crew of four. By 1969 Bell Helicopter Corporation was selling nearly $600 million

worth of helicopters to the United States Military. According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters". "

Alright, just a first stab at a first draft. Many more drafts needed.

*******************************************************

"According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters". ""

And, Hughies, too. Compliments of Hughes Aircraft Industries, Inc.

Damn, Myra! I couldn't have said it better than you did. Bravo, girl!

[Guest John Woods]

Thanks James.

I'm guessing pratice makes perfect?

Yet we have not seen it done in the US(?).

The closest would be the King assassination

as I remember images of machine gun post

and barb wire at the White House.

johnw

[Robert Howard]

Here's how I think the assassination may have happened:

Kennedy had an array of enemies. A president always does. Each faction of enemies was used in some way in the plot to kill him. That way, the dog continually chases its tail. Research never gets very far. Or, at least, moves very, very slowly.

The Mafia

Texas

Anti-Castro Cubans

The Military

The CIA

Researchers see someone involved from one of these groups (or others) and wrongly conclude that is who ordered the murder.

But, I think those that gave the order to kill JFK were insulated and removed themselves from the actual process of carrying outhis assassination. It's the old magician's trick of having the audience watch the right hand while the left performs the "magic".

Now, what was the most powerful element in the US in 1963? Who was the most powerful man of that element? Was it/he at odds with Kennedy? Over what? Would this powerful man/element have had the use and ties to Texas, The Mafia, Cubans, the Military? Intell?

...

John McCloy and Allen Dulles, I think, were central to the plot. But there was a higher power at work.

Who did these two work for?

Good overview. I'll add that there were higher powerS at work, spanning the "military industrial" complex that President Eisenhower warned about after waking up from his eight-year Rip Van-Winkle nap to hand the leash of a rabid dog to President Kennedy (yeah, I know Ike was sick a lot), after the heir apparent, Nixon, blew it in spite of Prescott's string-pulling.

Industrial--First and foremost. At one level nascent war-profiteers/Johnson puppeteers Brown & Root/Halliburton and Bell Helicoptor. Also oil moguls HL Hunt & Sons and Clint Murchison and Sid Richardson (all from Texas). At a higher level bankers like Brown Bros Harriman (and JP Morgan--now JP Morgan Chase--still smarting over their failure to overthrow FDR?). At an even higher level the Rockefellers.

Legal--The first level of defense for the Industrial faction. McCloy, who I knew nothing about before this thread, was a Harvard (Ivy League CIA) lawyer for the ruling class, head of the World Bank (ahem, a predecessor to Wolfowitz...). He does seem to have a helluva pedigree--purebred fascist. Ah prairie-xxxx, I'll just say it; he was a Nazi.

Banking--And money laundering. Especially laundering. McCloy was president of the Rockefeller's Chase Manhattan Bank.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html

" McCloy had long been involved in the murky world of espionage, intrigue and Nazis. He spent the decade of the 1930s working out of Paris. Much of his time was spent on a law case stemming from German sabotage in World War I. His investigation took him to Berlin, where he shared a box with Hitler at the 1936 Olympics. He was in contact with Rudolph Hess before the Nazi leader made a mysterious flight to England in 1941....When JFK moved to lower the oil depletion allowance, he incurred the displeasure of John McCloy, whose clients' profits would be trimmed. Hoover, Dulles and McCloy did not belong to the Kennedy fan club. When the president was shot, Hoover controlled the field investigation, and Dulles and McCloy helped mold the final verdict of the Warren Commission."

Then there's Prescott Bush and his laundering activities for the Nazis via Union Bank.

Intelligence--The covert enforcement/assassination branch of the Industrial faction, including friends of Prescott like the treasonous Dulles Bros, and comprised of the NSA/CIA/individual military branches. The co-second level of defense, along with the Military.

Propaganda--CIA Mockingbirds in the media. Were there actual PR firms involved?

Military--The overt enforcement branch of the Industrial faction via Joint Chiefs (?) who were still fuming over the President's rejection of Operation Northwoods and dumping of Chairman Lemnitzer. The co-second level of defense, along with the CIA/Mafia.

Others in this thread are discussing the specific individuals possibly involved (like John "the Constitution is just a scrap of paper to me" McCloy). http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccloyJ.htm

"As John D. Rockefeller Jr. told his personal lawyer, Thomas M. Debevoise, "McCloy knows so many people in government

circles... that he might be in the way to get information in various quarters about the matter without seeking it, or

revealing his hand."

Contractors--Hired or duped hit-men/muscle including mobsters and (as Stan noted, and Larry Hancock wrote about in "Someone Would Have Talked") misguided gullible (my terms, not Larry's) anti-Castro Cubans.

Congressional--The front-men for the Industrial fascists. Among them Lyndon Johnson who never would have given up his

Majority Leader position if he didn't know he would quickly advance beyond VP, and good ol' boy "Winkin'" Albert Thomas (both

from Texas).

Organizational 1/National-International--Council on Foreign Relations. "From 1954 to 1970, [McCloy] was chairman of the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations in New York, to be succeeded by David Rockefeller, who had worked closely with him at the Chase Bank. McCloy had a long association with the Rockefeller family, going back to his early Harvard days when he taught the young Rockefeller brothers how to sail. He was also a member of the Draper Committee, formed in 1958 by Eisenhower."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._McCloy

"The earliest origin of the Council stemmed from a working fellowship of distinguished scholars, tasked to brief President

Woodrow Wilson [who was supposedly the first president to extensively use propaganda, and was supposedly admired by Harry (Pendergast puppet/bomb-dropper/CIA creator/World Bank inventor/original Cold Warrier) Truman (the buck really does stop there)] about options for the postwar world when Germany was defeated. Through 1917-18, this academic band, a prominent member of whom was Wilson's closest adviser

Edward M. House, as well as Walter Lippmann, gathered discreetly at 155th Street and Broadway in New York City, to assemble the strategy for the postwar world. This band of scholars then travelled to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919...The Americans who subsequently returned from the conference became drawn to a discreet club of New York financiers and international lawyers who had organized previously in June 1918 and was headed by Elihu Root; this select group called itself the Council on Foreign Relations. They joined this group and the Council was formally established in New York on July 29, 1921, with 108 founding members, including Elihu Root as a leading member and John W. Davis, the personal attorney for J. P. Morgan, as its founding president. Other luminaries included John Foster Dulles, Herbert Lehman, Henry Stimson, Averell Harriman and the Rockefeller family's public relations expert, Ivy Lee.

The Council initially had strong connections to the Morgan interests, such as the lawyer, Paul Cravath, whose pre-eminent New York law firm (later named Cravath, Swaine & Moore) represented Morgan businesses; and a Morgan partner, Russell Leffingwell, later becoming its first chairman. Over time, however, the locus of power shifted inexorably to the Rockefeller family."

Organizational 2/Texas epicenter--Texas & the 8F klan. Texas was of course the nation-state that served as the ideal incubator for evil. "As the historian, Robert A. Caro has pointed out in Lyndon Johnson: The Path to Power: "Texans were elected on December 7, 1931, not only to the Speakership of the House but to the chairmanship of five of its most influential committees, Lyndon Johnson's first day in the Capitol was the day Texas came to power in it - a power that the state was to hold, with only the

briefest interruptions, for more than thirty years."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgroup8F.htm

"The assassination of John F. Kennedy brought an end to this proposal to bring an end to the oil depletion allowance. The

Suite 8F Group also did very well out of the escalation of the Vietnam War. They formed a new company called RMK-BRJ to

obtain these contracts. This included Halliburton who took over Brown & Root in 1962. These contracts included building jet

runways, dredging channels for ships, hospitals, prisons, communications facilities, and building American bases from Da Nang

to Saigon. RMK-BRJ did 97% of the construction work in Vietnam. The other 3% went to local Vietnamese contractors. Between

1965 and 1972 Brown & Root (Halliburton) alone obtained revenues of $380 million from its work in Vietnam.

...

Another company associated with the Suite 8F Group also did well out of the Vietnam War. Bell Helicopter Corporation began

producing the UH-1. It could climb 2,000 feet per minute and could fly at 125 miles per hour for about three hours. It could

carry nine fully equipped soldiers and a crew of four. By 1969 Bell Helicopter Corporation was selling nearly $600 million

worth of helicopters to the United States Military. According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters". "

Alright, just a first stab at a first draft. Many more drafts needed.

*******************************************************

"According to Robert Bryce: "Vietnam made Bell Helicopters". ""

And, Hughies, too. Compliments of Hughes Aircraft Industries, Inc.

Damn, Myra! I couldn't have said it better than you did. Bravo, girl!

James thanks for the info on Operation Big Lift. All of the points raised on this thread have considerable weight, the obvious reason being, we are basically discussing the "button pusher's," re the genuine article. The ultimate insult to American's in the 1960's [and this is obviously something cannot be effectively communicated in a book, it almost certainly can only be a "lived" experience] is the fact that when the cornerstones of effective Liberal leadership [JFK, MLK, and RFK] were eliminated, we all were treated to the insulting spectacle of the media condescendingly "explaining" that all of this violence was the product of deranged lone nut's......isolated, failed humans, who sought glory by making the ultimate political statement. "I can kill the most powerful man in America," in the case of Oswald. That the political environment in American culture circa 2007, has relegated those who believe the three assassinations were the result of the "C" word; villified residents of la-la land, while those souls who nobly take, nay embrace, the "official" version of history are "good American's," ostensibly. Shades of George Orwell

The ultimate reality I am afraid, is the perpetuation of a macarbe status-quo, in which there has developed "two versions of history." One for the masses and one for the seekers of truth, who have discovered the same fact that the Jim Garrison's, spooks who have come clean, and Ramsey Clark's of the world have learned. Which is that politics takes place every day not just every four years. The struggle to reveal the truth about the assassination versus those dedicated to being the keepers of the secrets, or perhaps more accurately the keepers of the skeleton's firmly in their respective closets, illustrates the ultimate analogy to the Biblical story of David vs Goliath.......

So as not to end on a fatalistic, bleak summation of the State of the Union of the "JFK saga," I will add that, in relation to the topic thread, the passage of time has seen the dissolution of the "official version of the JFK Assassination." This was illustrated to a degree when E Howard Hunt's last book, floated the hook of - LBJ having the motive and yada yada, yada...to have been the person who was THE button pusher, was almost predictable.....Think about that.......in the teaser for Hunt's book, it was floated in the media that in reality, it was a Democrat!!!

When dealing with profoundly important topics, December 7th, 1941, November 22, 1963, and September 11, 2001 the historical details can take "awhile" to become "in focus."

Let's hope it does not take forty or fifty years to figure out 9-11........

Edited March 3, 2007 by Robert Howard

[James Richards]

Thanks James.

I'm guessing pratice makes perfect?

Yet we have not seen it done in the US(?).

The closest would be the King assassination

as I remember images of machine gun post

and barb wire at the White House.

johnw

Indeed, John.

With something like Op Big Lift in play during the weeks before the assassination, having say a flight out of Laos with operational teams on board would not have drawn much attention.

In addition, with all the activity out of Fort Hood, Texas would have been a hive of activity and shuffling personnel around would have been easy.

I have always wondered if one of the reasons Dallas was selected was because of this.

James