Those Front Steps

[Tony Krome]

48 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Is it the person lowering their arm between the two women in red? Looks like a white, long sleeved arm.

 

Great Gif Chris, clearly shows someone clapping on the TSBD steps.

[Alan Ford]

5 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Is it the person lowering their arm between the two women in red? Looks like a white, long sleeved arm.

 

Great GIF, Mr. Davidson, thank you!

Is the arm half-sleeved, or full sleeve & elongated by their holding something?

Either way, we can comfortably rule this person out as our man in front of the mailboxes in Darnell.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Great Gif Chris, clearly shows someone clapping on the TSBD steps.

Do you mean over on the east side, Mr. Krome?

[Alan Ford]

Speaking of people in long white sleeves who are not candidates for the guy in front of the mailboxes in Darnell........... who's this tall guy in white on the west side of the doorway? Weren't all the males in the doorway supposed to be accounted for?

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

18 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Friends, it can be a useful exercise to steelman another's argument. In that spirit, I'd like to take a little time out here-------------by way of nothing more than speculative excursus---------to envisage a counter-narrative that would combine two counter-suggestions members have advanced in recent posts:

a) Mr. Lovelady is Red Shirt Man in Hughes and in Towner 

b) The man holding the long rectangular object in Darnell could be Mr. Oswald himself.

Alternatively!

One might use the above starting premises to posit a slightly different scenario in order to bring the two eyebrow-raising oddities below into explanatory relation with one another:

(Again, in laying out an hypothetical scenario, I'm going to consciously ignore for now any problems/weaknesses.)

The smartened-up Mr. Oswald only steps out on to the front steps at the time of the actual shooting. He has been biding his time behind the glass door. As soon as he hears the first bang, he has his cue. Out he steps, and down--------and off the steps to the area by the mailboxes. Because everyone's attention is fixed on the motorcade, and the loud bangs that have just come out of nowhere, barely a soul notices him in their midst in these few seconds.

The original Wiegman showed him stepping down past Mr. Lovelady. The extant Wiegman shows just an impossible darkness to Mr. Lovelady's right (viewer's left). The reason the 'shadow' down Mr. Lovelady becomes more drastic in the later frames (when Mr. Lovelady has stepped down) is that Mr. Oswald, having now stepped down even lower than him, is showing up in a place that cuts right into the right side (viewer's left) of Mr. Lovelady's body............

This would offer an alternative reason for why Wiegman might have been monkeyed with. Those who monkeyed with it wished to hoodwink the viewer into thinking the natural shadowline from the west column went halfway across the west side of the doorway------------an analog-era hoax that simply cannot sustain the scrutiny of the digital age.

While you're here----------Pro Tip: Look closely at Mr. Lovelady's head in these Wiegman frames:

Edited October 31, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Andrej Stancak]

23 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

his Wiegman frame, which Mr. Stancak has aptly described as "unfortunate":

unfortunate ... owing to unusually sharp contrasts precluding separation of Lovelady's figure from the background as the whole backgroups appears solid black. With no gradations of grey tones, this image is useless for answering certain questions, such as what was the appearance of Lovelady's right side of his body, or details of Prayer Man's figure. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Alan Ford]

10 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

unfortunate ... owing to unusually sharp contrasts precluding separation of Lovelady's figure from the background as the whole backgroups appears solid black. With no gradations of grey tones, this image is useless for answering certain questions, such as what was the appearance of Lovelady's right side of his body, or details of Prayer Man's figure. 

 

No, Mr. Stancak-------------unfortunate because you cannot offer any realistic account of how darkness would fall this drastically down Mr. Lovelady's side in the first place.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

15 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Friends, it can be a useful exercise to steelman another's argument. In that spirit, I'd like to take a little time out here-------------by way of nothing more than speculative excursus---------to envisage a counter-narrative that would combine two counter-suggestions members have advanced in recent posts:

a) Mr. Lovelady is Red Shirt Man in Hughes and in Towner 

b) The man holding the long rectangular object in Darnell could be Mr. Oswald himself.

Now, to be clear! My own preferred candidate for this man in front of the mailboxes is still Mr. Bill Shelley.

This is the scenario I'm thinking:

Mr. Shelley

-----------runs down off the steps v. quickly after hearing the shots

-----------is told out at "the corner of the park" by Mrs. Gloria Calvery that Pres. Kennedy has been hit

-----------turns around, goes back and informs Mr. Oswald (who is setting up his political stunt in front of the mailboxes) of this stunning fact

-----------tells Mr. Oswald to abort mission and vamoose, and undertakes to clean up this scene himself

-----------retrieves the long paper bag and is about to stuff the banner back in

-----------is spotted by Officer Baker, who comes dashing straight his way

-----------freezes

[Alan Ford]

Statement of the obvious!:

If the man standing in front of the mailboxes is indeed Mr. Shelley, then there is no need to get Mr. Oswald all dressed up. He goes back inside the building, to the first-floor storage room, for some reason other than changing back into his work clothes.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

My opinions FWIW:

1. It certainly does look like someone is waving a flag in Towner.
2. The guy holding the debris/banner/whatever in Darnell appears to be waving. His hand blocks his face to various degrees as he waves.
3. Impossible shade being due to film alteration to hide something seems like a reasonable explanation.
4. This is an interesting presentation. I can't say I agree with it, but it does bring up new things worth considering.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

No, Mr. Stancak-------------unfortunate because you cannot offer any realistic account of how darkness would fall this drastically down Mr. Lovelady's side in the first place.

Alan:

you suggested in our recent exchange to quit the discussion on the topic of missing information on Lovelady's right body in one of Wiegman frames, and I obliged thinking it is wise to stop a discussion which cannot be resolved. You decided to call my name and raise the same problem again; I did explain why Lovelady's right body cannot be seen in that particular frame (but it can be seen in other frames quite well), and there is nothing else to be added. Simply, photographic materials on JFK assassination often have unknown provenance and show different levels of adjustments. In this particular image, the contrasts were made that sharp that we only can see basically one level of black with no gradations. 

Once the contrast has been strengthened that much as in the frame you are posted repeatedly, there is no information in the background and therefore, the transition between right side of Lovelady's body and the western wall of the doorway and other objects in the doorway got lost. 

Lovelady's right body could not be in shadow in that frame as he was still comparatively close to the central rail in that frame. 

I now understand that you want to propose a photographic manipulation with this frame - to achieve what? If this Wiegman frame was altered to obfuscate Lovelady's right side of the body, why other Wiegman frames showing Lovelady's right body all right were not altered?

Too many conspiracy thoughts kill the JFK assassination case. Your suggestion of photographic alteration in Wiegman film is similar to the claim that Lovelady's shirt in Altgens6 was flushed with a different colour to obfuscate Carl Jones's extended arm. It is beyond embarassing.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Alan Ford]

19 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Alan:

you suggested in our recent exchange to quit the discussion on the topic of missing information on Lovelady's right body in one of Wiegman frames, and I obliged thinking it is wise to stop a discussion which cannot be resolved. You decided to call my name and raise the same problem again; I did explain why Lovelady's right body cannot be seen in that particular frame (but it can be seen in other frames quite well), and there is nothing else to be added. Simply, photographic materials on JFK assassination often have unknown provenance and show different levels of adjustments. In this particular image, the contrasts were made that sharp that we only can see basically one level of black with no gradations. 

Once the contrast has been strengthened that much as in the frame you are posted repeatedly, there is no information in the background and therefore, the transition between right side of Lovelady's body and the western wall of the doorway and other objects in the doorway got lost. 

Lovelady's right body could not be in shadow in that frame as he was still comparatively close to the central rail in that frame. 

I now understand that you want to propose a photographic manipulation with this frame - to achieve what? If this Wiegman frame was altered to obfuscate Lovelady's right side of the body, why other Wiegman frames showing Lovelady's right body all right were not altered?

You completely misunderstand me, Mr. Stancak. I don't believe any of the Wiegman frames "show[] Lovelady's body all right".

Now stop being disingenuous and hiding behind this 'Nothing to see here, it's-a-problematic-frame' nonsense. It didn't work with the Kamp Darnell frame, and it won't work here. (BTW: getting on your high horse about an alterationist claim is a bit rich-----------when the Kamp frame was brought to your attention, you weren't slow to invoke the specter of alteration).

Kindly explain to us how you see the orientation of Mr. Lovelady's body in the latter frames here-----------the ones where he has stepped down:

 

I say a fake shadow has been laid down Mr. Lovelady's body. Prove me wrong.

Thank you.

[Alan Ford]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The guy holding the debris/banner/whatever in Darnell appears to be waving. His hand blocks his face to various degrees as he waves.

 

I honestly can't see that, Mr. Larsen. What I'm seeing is the end of his short sleeve remain at about the height of the west mailbox..........

[Alan Ford]

3 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Statement of the obvious!:

If the man standing in front of the mailboxes is indeed Mr. Shelley, then there is no need to get Mr. Oswald all dressed up. He goes back inside the building, to the first-floor storage room, for some reason other than changing back into his work clothes.

 

Thus, no reason why we can't combine the elements we have been playing with------------thusly:

1. Mr. Lovelady waves the flag

2. Mr. Oswald, dressed in his normal work clothes, only steps out upon hearing the first shot

3. Mr. Shelley, upon learning from Mrs. Gloria Calvery that Pres. Kennedy has been hit, tells Mr. Oswald to abort mission.

4. Mr. Shelley is spotted by Officer Baker holding the bag, as he makes to clean up the scene.

[Alan Ford]

42 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

Thus, no reason why we can't combine the elements we have been playing with------------thusly:

1. Mr. Lovelady waves the flag

2. Mr. Oswald, dressed in his normal work clothes, only steps out upon hearing the first shot

3. Mr. Shelley, upon learning from Mrs. Gloria Calvery that Pres. Kennedy has been hit, tells Mr. Oswald to abort mission.

4. Mr. Shelley is spotted by Officer Baker holding the bag, as he makes to clean up the scene.

Consider this!

From Judge HYER's window, Mrs. [Lillian] MOONEYHAM noted a number of bystander running toward the cement pavilion which borders Elm Street between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.

If Mr. Shelley, having learned that Pres. Kennedy was actually hit, has to act quickly to inform Mr. Oswald and to then dispose of what he has previously understood to be 'necessary' evidence (i.e. necessary to tie the provocation to a pro-Castro group), then it is reasonable to posit that someone else in the TSBD group who has facilitated what they thought was going to be a staged non-lethal incident goes up to the SN window shortly after the assassination to perform a similar clean-up operation there.

The man seen at the sixth-floor window 4-5 minutes after the assassination by Mrs. Mooneyham may have been Mr. Truly. Or he may have been Mr. Lovelady. Or he may have been Mr. Dougherty. Or he may have been Mr. Oswald.

Any TSBD person who was 'guiltocent'-------i.e. privy or party to what they had been told would be a missed-shots affair-------would fit the bill.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Alan Ford