Historical Clarity On The Construction Of WCC 6.5mm Carcano Ammunition

[Gary Murr]

Jean - You should find attached herein an enlargement from one of the WCC 6.5mm carcano cartridges taken from a box of this ammunition the FBI got from John Brinegar [C310 - CE 310]. If you look at this closely you will note that when the "new"soft point bullet was re-seated in the cartridge the end result was ok, but not perfect. You can see a portion of the cannelure sitting just above the lip of the cartridge case. Note also the "new" [lead?] tip of the soft point bullet appears to have an "X" etched into it, a common practice by some to assure greater fragmentation on contact with the given target.

 

Edited February 6 by Gary Murr

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 10/27/2023 at 5:47 PM, Gary Murr said:

 

“3. If all four million Western Cartridge 6.5 mm rounds were sent offshore, how did the FBI secure bona fide Western Cartridge 6.5 mm ammo, post-JFKA? Why did a least a few domestic suppliers have some bona fide Western Cartridge 6.5 mm ammo? “

If you like, I can provide a link to a section in my manuscript that clearly outlines how the FBI secured “bona fide” WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammunition; just let me know.

I would be interested in reading about that,  and as I'm intrigued by those WCC ammunition,  I'm looking forward to your other chapters and parts.

[Cliff Varnell]

Out of two million rounds of WCC 6.5mm FMJ how many would be short loads, on an average?

There’s one regular poster here who thinks defective rounds were common in 1963.

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

I would be interested in reading about that,  and as I'm intrigued by those WCC ammunition,  I'm looking forward to your other chapters and parts.

Gary Murr has provided remarkable research.

But I have to ask: does a lack of documentation regarding WCC 6.5mm rounds being shipped offshore...mean no rounds were shipped offshore? 

The US military had no weapons that could fire the WCC rounds. A logical deduction is the WCC rounds, ordered by the US military, were manufactured for use offshore. 

Or, could have William Sucher and The International Firearms Company, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, acted as a cutout, and they shipped some number of rounds to Greece or Guatemala, or other locales? 

That is, the US wanted plausible denial in providing bullets to a clash somewhere?

 

[Gary Murr]

6 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

I would be interested in reading about that,

Hello Jean:

If I get the time in the next couple of days I will try to either reproduce this information - where the FBI "secured bona-fide Western Cartridge 6.5mm ammo post- JFKA..." - directly from the working pages of my manuscript, or at very least provide a temporary link where you or any other interested parties can view/download this same information.

[Gary Murr]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Out of two million rounds of WCC 6.5mm FMJ how many would be short loads, on an average?

Hello Cliff:

Thanks for your question. Unfortunately I cannot give you a definitive answer as I just don't know. I can tell you that of the approximately 3000+ rounds of this ammunition that I know was tested by various individuals or concerns, such as the Western Cartridge Company, directly, the research and development branch of their corporate partner, Winchester-Western in New Hampshire, the testing facilities of the OSAAC in St. Louis, Missosuri, the Aberdeen Proving Grounds test facilities, H. P. White Laboratories, all of who produced copies of their results, copies that I do have, as well as tests performed by the FBI Lab and Navy Lab in Washington, as well as numerous individuals and critics who defend the work of the Warren Commission et al, such as Dr. John Lattimer and Lucien Haag and his son, not a single "short load" round of WCC 6.5mm ammunition was recorded as being experienced. The main complaint indicated in these various reports was a failure of the ammunition to load, in particular as it was tested in the Breda LMG and to a lesser extent in the various Carcano rifles/carbines of Italian manufacture, and a propensity to fail to eject from the test weapons. However, even in these instances the occurrences were minor in nature. For instance, of the 1,593 rounds of ammunition put through the various testing procedures by the OSAAC in St. Louis and Aberdeen, these particular failures occurred 27 times. In their summation of the servicability of this ammunition there was agreement that these failures to feed or eject were caused "by faulty weapons or a different time-pressure relationship" in the WCC 6.5mm ammunition than in ammunition designed and manufactured by Italian concerns specifically for these same weapons. 

While I am not in a position to deny that "short loads" may have existed in an unknown quantity of cartridges out of the 4 million+ that were produced by the WCC - after all, anything is possible - I have no proof that just such short-loaded ammunition existed or still exist, and I base this answer on my study of the extremely stringent manufacturing rules for military ammunition ... which is really what the WCC 6.5mm ammunition was and is. 

In closing, I would be curious and interested as to the basis of the unamed "regular poster[s]" basis for his thought that 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC specifically possessed "short-load" rounds that were common in 1963.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Gary Murr said:

Hello Cliff:

Thanks for your question. Unfortunately I cannot give you a definitive answer as I just don't know. I can tell you that of the approximately 3000+ rounds of this ammunition that I know was tested by various individuals or concerns, such as the Western Cartridge Company, directly, the research and development branch of their corporate partner, Winchester-Western in New Hampshire, the testing facilities of the OSAAC in St. Louis, Missosuri, the Aberdeen Proving Grounds test facilities, H. P. White Laboratories, all of who produced copies of their results, copies that I do have, as well as tests performed by the FBI Lab and Navy Lab in Washington, as well as numerous individuals and critics who defend the work of the Warren Commission et al, such as Dr. John Lattimer and Lucien Haag and his son, not a single "short load" round of WCC 6.5mm ammunition was recorded as being experienced. The main complaint indicated in these various reports was a failure of the ammunition to load, in particular as it was tested in the Breda LMG and to a lesser extent in the various Carcano rifles/carbines of Italian manufacture, and a propensity to fail to eject from the test weapons. However, even in these instances the occurrences were minor in nature. For instance, of the 1,593 rounds of ammunition put through the various testing procedures by the OSAAC in St. Louis and Aberdeen, these particular failures occurred 27 times. In their summation of the servicability of this ammunition there was agreement that these failures to feed or eject were caused "by faulty weapons or a different time-pressure relationship" in the WCC 6.5mm ammunition than in ammunition designed and manufactured by Italian concerns specifically for these same weapons. 

While I am not in a position to deny that "short loads" may have existed in an unknown quantity of cartridges out of the 4 million+ that were produced by the WCC - after all, anything is possible - I have no proof that just such short-loaded ammunition existed or still exist, and I base this answer on my study of the extremely stringent manufacturing rules for military ammunition ... which is really what the WCC 6.5mm ammunition was and is. 

In closing, I would be curious and interested as to the basis of the unamed "regular poster[s]" basis for his thought that 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC specifically possessed "short-load" rounds that were common in 1963.

Thanks for your detailed response, Gary.

Every time I cite the fact 6.5mm FMJ don’t leave shallow wounds in soft tissue, Ben Cole chimes in with the short load scenario.  

No amount of contrary evidence gets Ben to get off it.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Gary Murr said:

Hello Cliff:

Thanks for your question. Unfortunately I cannot give you a definitive answer as I just don't know. I can tell you that of the approximately 3000+ rounds of this ammunition that I know was tested by various individuals or concerns, such as the Western Cartridge Company, directly, the research and development branch of their corporate partner, Winchester-Western in New Hampshire, the testing facilities of the OSAAC in St. Louis, Missosuri, the Aberdeen Proving Grounds test facilities, H. P. White Laboratories, all of who produced copies of their results, copies that I do have, as well as tests performed by the FBI Lab and Navy Lab in Washington, as well as numerous individuals and critics who defend the work of the Warren Commission et al, such as Dr. John Lattimer and Lucien Haag and his son, not a single "short load" round of WCC 6.5mm ammunition was recorded as being experienced. The main complaint indicated in these various reports was a failure of the ammunition to load, in particular as it was tested in the Breda LMG and to a lesser extent in the various Carcano rifles/carbines of Italian manufacture, and a propensity to fail to eject from the test weapons. However, even in these instances the occurrences were minor in nature. For instance, of the 1,593 rounds of ammunition put through the various testing procedures by the OSAAC in St. Louis and Aberdeen, these particular failures occurred 27 times. In their summation of the servicability of this ammunition there was agreement that these failures to feed or eject were caused "by faulty weapons or a different time-pressure relationship" in the WCC 6.5mm ammunition than in ammunition designed and manufactured by Italian concerns specifically for these same weapons. 

While I am not in a position to deny that "short loads" may have existed in an unknown quantity of cartridges out of the 4 million+ that were produced by the WCC - after all, anything is possible - I have no proof that just such short-loaded ammunition existed or still exist, and I base this answer on my study of the extremely stringent manufacturing rules for military ammunition ... which is really what the WCC 6.5mm ammunition was and is. 

In closing, I would be curious and interested as to the basis of the unamed "regular poster[s]" basis for his thought that 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC specifically possessed "short-load" rounds that were common in 1963.

Gary Murr:

OK, here is what I really posed and asked:

If Paul Landis, in fact, found a slug, which in appearance looked like CE399, on the rear seat of the limo in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, how did that happen?

We know, in part from the documents you have provided, that a proper WCC 6.5 round left the assassin's muzzle at ~2,300 feet per second, and it was 50-75 yards from from gun barrel until impact on JFK.

In short, such a proper WCC 6.5 round would have passed through JFK, akin to the round that passed through Gov. Connally. 

So what happened (if Landis' recollection is correct)? 

The only answer that avails itself is that the WCC round was defective (unlikely) or, more likely, "short-loaded" by hand. 

Perhaps LHO (or other party), lacking much ammo, hand-loaded a leftover cartridge. As LHO (or other party) evidently had only four rounds total, the idea of LHO (or other party) hand-loading a round is not totally farfetched. 

As I recall, there is even a question about one of the WCC 6.5 cartridges found in the sniper's nest having an odd, or defective "crimp" in its nose, just atop of the cannelure. A short-loaded round? 

IMHO, a short-loaded WCC 6.5 cartridge may explain the curious injury in JFK's back.  

My back of the envelope calculations (based on industry literature) is that a short-loaded WW cartridge, one fired ~700 feet per second, would have but minor (insignificant) "drop" at 50 yards, but could still penetrate JFK by an inch or two. 

Others may have other explanations for the possibly shallow injury in JFK's back. 

Some contend the slug penetrated JFK's back and exited the throat. 

So it goes. 

Some people have divine assistance in these matters, or are divine themselves, and can "divine the answer." 

I just slog along with facts at hand....

 

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Gary Murr:

OK, here is what I really posed and asked:

This is merely the latest iteration of the “short load” scenario posed by Mr. Cole.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If Paul Landis, in fact, found a slug, which in appearance looked like CE399, on the rear seat of the limo in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, how did that happen?

We know, in part from the documents you have provided, that a proper WCC 6.5 round left the assassin's muzzle at ~2,300 feet per second, and it was 50-75 yards from from gun barrel until impact on JFK.

SSA Glen Bennett’s abundantly corroborated contemporaneous written account establishes the back shot immediately before the head shot — 90 yards.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

In short, such a proper WCC 6.5 round would have passed through JFK, akin to the round that passed through Gov. Connally. 

So what happened (if Landis' recollection is correct)? 

The only answer that avails itself is that the WCC round was defective (unlikely)

This is a breakthrough!  The first time Ben Cole has acknowledged the scenario is “unlikely.”

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

or, more likely, "short-loaded" by hand. 

Short loaded by hand and still only missed the head by 7 - 8 inches?  

Or the bullet was planted.  

But that doesn’t fit Ben’s pet theory, so he goes with a wildly far fetched scenario to naysay a point of clarity.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Perhaps LHO (or other party), lacking much ammo, hand-loaded a leftover cartridge. As LHO (or other party) evidently had only four rounds total, the idea of LHO (or other party) hand-loading a round is not totally farfetched. 

And the round dropped only 8 inches over 90 yards?

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As I recall, there is even a question about one of the WCC 6.5 cartridges found in the sniper's nest having an odd, or defective "crimp" in its nose, just atop of the cannelure. A short-loaded round? 

IMHO, a short-loaded WCC 6.5 cartridge may explain the curious injury in JFK's back.  

My back of the envelope calculations (based on industry literature) is that a short-loaded WW cartridge, one fired ~700 feet per second, would have but minor (insignificant) "drop" at 50 yards, but could still penetrate JFK by an inch or two. 

The distance was almost twice that.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Others may have other explanations for the possibly shallow injury in JFK's back. 

Some contend the slug penetrated JFK's back and exited the throat. 

Which brings us to Ben’s Lone Nut Adjacent scenario — the bullet entered the back at T3 at a downward angle, somehow climbed up the spine to fracture the right T1 transverse  process, then change direction again to tear the trachea and exit the throat.  Even Lone Nutters reject this as idiotic.

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So it goes. 

Some people have divine assistance in these matters, or are divine themselves, and can "divine the answer." 

I just slog along with facts at hand....

 

No, Ben, you ignore anything that doesn’t confirm your pet theories.

[Benjamin Cole]

18 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

This is merely the latest iteration of the “short load” scenario posed by Mr. Cole.

SSA Glen Bennett’s abundantly corroborated contemporaneous written account establishes the back shot immediately before the head shot — 90 yards.

This is a breakthrough!  The first time Ben Cole has acknowledged the scenario is “unlikely.”

Short loaded by hand and still only missed the head by 7 - 8 inches?  

Or the bullet was planted.  

But that doesn’t fit Ben’s pet theory, so he goes with a wildly far fetched scenario to naysay a point of clarity.

And the round dropped only 8 inches over 90 yards?

The distance was almost twice that.

Which brings us to Ben’s Lone Nut Adjacent scenario — the bullet entered the back at T3 at a downward angle, somehow climbed up the spine to fracture the right T1 transverse  process, then change direction again to tear the trachea and exit the throat.  Even Lone Nutters reject this as idiotic.

No, Ben, you ignore anything that doesn’t confirm your pet theories.

CV-

It is enough to post your views, and respect those of others. Try to be civil, cordial, collegial. 

[Benjamin Cole]

https://kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Griffith/Dented_shell.html

Here is an interesting read on the "dented" WCC 6.5 cartridge found in the TSBD, post-JFKA. 

The lip of the hull was dented.

The authors suggested that means the shell was empty at the time of the JFKA.

But possibly the dented shell had been hand-loaded, and inadvertently under-loaded. 

If LHO (or other party) had only four rounds total, that may explain re-using a round. 

Lots of gun enthusiasts re-load shells.

And, of course, the WCC 6.5 cartridges were re-loaded by at least one local Dallas gun shop, and fitted with slugs more suited for hunting. 

Reloading of the WCC 6.5 cartridges is an interesting topic. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

CV-

It is enough to post your views, and respect those of others. Try to be civil, cordial, collegial. 

Try to show good faith in your discussions, Ben, then you might be treated with the respect you think you deserve.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Try to show good faith in your discussions, Ben, then you might be treated with the respect you think you deserve.

I show good faith, and all earnest commenters deserve respect. 

We disagree on the possible causes of JFK's 11/22 back wound. 

With the new revelations of Paul Landis, I suspect an undercharged WCC 6.5 round. 

You suspect a disintegrating projectile did the trick. 

So it goes. 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I show good faith, and all earnest commenters deserve respect. M

No, you habitually mischaracterize the evidence: Pierre Finck’s experience with gunshot wounds, the timing of the back shot according to Bennett’s well-corroborated report, the accounts of the probing of the back wound — to name the more egregious examples of bad faith.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

We disagree on the possible causes of JFK's 11/22 back wound. 

And you refuse to acknowledge any evidence that doesn’t fit your pet theories — bad faith.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

With the new revelations of Paul Landis, I suspect an undercharged WCC 6.5 round. 

Without a shred of evidence that such a round was ever produced.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You suspect a disintegrating projectile did the trick. 

No, I’m pointing out that the autopsists suspected a disintegrating projectile,.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So it goes. 

 

You habitually bash witnesses who don’t support your pet notions.  I call that bad faith.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

No, you habitually mischaracterize the evidence: Pierre Finck’s experience with gunshot wounds, the timing of the back shot according to Bennett’s well-corroborated report, the accounts of the probing of the back wound — to name the more egregious examples of bad faith.

And you refuse to acknowledge any evidence that doesn’t fit your pet theories — bad faith.

Without a shred of evidence that such a round was ever produced.

No, I’m pointing out that the autopsists suspected a disintegrating projectile,.

You habitually bash witnesses who don’t support your pet notions.  I call that bad faith.

You have the final word CV.