Jean Ceulemans Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 29 minutes ago, Gary Murr said: Hello James: I am familiar with all of the documents you have posted in this thread, and many more, so if/when you have questions, let me know. I did visit the former Century Arms sites - yes, sites because the company did move around - in Vermont in 2018 as part of my research on 6.5mm WCC ammunition. Will do, just put them up here as I first have to catch up on some reading about them. But I'm also going to install a new PC this weekend, before that making a backup of the old ones, cleaning up files, etcc Putting them up here for a few days was the easiest way, my desk is a big mess for the moment, cables, files and papers every where (I'm old school and still like prints and paper books). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 On 10/24/2023 at 9:21 PM, Gary Murr said: No problem. As I indicated, if you or anyone else have any questions regarding any aspect of this ammunition, just let me know and I will respond in kind, if possible. Just wondering, ever considered publishing your manuscript ? I´ve seen it contains important information, and I´m sure there is lot more like that in the other chapters. I´m very much looking forward to reading more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 53 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said: Just wondering, ever considered publishing your manuscript ? I´ve seen it contains important information, and I´m sure there is lot more like that in the other chapters. I´m very much looking forward to reading more. Jean/Gary I just did a post that highlights WC 6.5 ammo. FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 @Gary Murr Do you know when the FBI got their hands on the 3rd empty TSBD cartridge ? Fritz allegedly kept one of those three. Now, also see Ben's topic on the dented cartridge. To me it looks like an old Italian style crimp, no way WCC would use that. Did Fritz keep that 3rd one because it was... different ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 35 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said: @Gary Murr Do you know when the FBI got their hands on the 3rd empty TSBD cartridge ? Fritz allegedly kept one of those three. Now, also see Ben's topic on the dented cartridge. To me it looks like an old Italian style crimp, no way WCC would use that. Did Fritz keep that 3rd one because it was... different ? I am going off the top of my head, but am fairly certain the third shell was sent over to the FBI a week or so after the shooting. This was recognized as a problem, even by the WC, which tried to figure out why this occurred. The story, as pushed by Fritz, is that he chose to hold onto the third shell because damn it it was his investigation. And this actually passes muster. The DPD was not subordinate to the FBI. They sent them some of their evidence as a courtesy, which the FBI had to rush right on back. He had three shells. Why not hold onto one in case the others got lost, or maybe to insure they don't pull a switcheroo? As far as the crimp. I wouldn't be surprised if Fritz recognized this could be a problem, and that he held onto that shell in particular because of its possible significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said: Do you know when the FBI got their hands on the 3rd empty TSBD cartridge ? Fritz allegedly kept one of those three. Hey Jean: Pat Speer was in essence correct. In an affidavit dated June 9, 1964, Fritz indicates that he believes he turned the third shell - CE545 - over the FBI around November 27th. See: 7H403-404. This would appear to be accurate - as John Hunt found an "evidence" listing sheet that had been written by Robert Frazier and taped to the back of a file folder in among the FBI bulky collection. If you look at figure 2 in John's excellent essay regarding what he called the arrival of the "mysterious bullet" you will see that the last entry on this listing states - "Q48 - c.c. rec'd 11/27 Vincent Drain, Warren DeBrueys, Dallas FO." Q48 was the first designation assigned to the Fritz sequestered cartridge which became thereafter C48, then CE 545. [As you may already know, the FBI lab designations of the initials "Q" and "C" stand for "questioned" items of evidence and "confirmed" items of evidence.] Somewhere I have a copy of this transferance signed by Vincent Drain, but after searching for an hour or so I gave up... even though I know I saw it among my collection just a few days ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 (edited) Thanks for the reactions, it travelled with the palmprint on 11/26 (rep 11/27) Edited November 9, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Just for the record, the WC 6.5 hull with the dent is CE543. If Fritz was withholding CE545, then he was not keeping the "dented" hull (cartridge, shell). From reading online, it appears some thought has been given to the dented hull, along the lines that it was always empty, and caused a small "jam" when it passed through the M-C rifle, and thus became dented. At the time, and through the 1970s-HSCA, no one seems to have pondered if the dent could have been created by a hand reloading. As an aside, I suspect someone on the GK used a hand-loaded snubnose .38 to create a smoke and bang show. The hand reloading allows the use of cheap gunpowder that would smoke, and a .38, with a short barrel, gives a loud bang and lots of smoke. Ergo, hand reloading may have been a capacity of the JFKA conspirators, and indeed was a popular pastime among target shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) @Gary Murr If you find the time, I'd be very interested in what you have found on this acquisition by Burton D. Munhall (adding two excerpts from your work for a quick reference to this) Edited November 9, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted November 4, 2023 Author Share Posted November 4, 2023 Jean - I sent you a PM a while ago; when you get the chance give it a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 9, 2023 Share Posted November 9, 2023 I replied some time ago, I hope you could solve the technical issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted November 10, 2023 Share Posted November 10, 2023 I still want to know...does anyone know what happened to the bulk of the 4 million WC 6.5 rounds that were manufactured? Where were they distributed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) Have been doing some more reading on the topic. 1) And I have to say it's darn frustrating how they seem to have been avoiding the use of the letters "W.C.C" Goodwin and others offering cartridge cases, lab making reports, etc without even once mentioning the headstamp WCC.... The only thing they will write is "6.5 cartridge cases" and that's it... Now, no problem, just have to dig deeper... 2) Also I was wondering about the clips, most that I have seen are marked SMI (Italian made), a few others. And made of steel or brass. I don't think WCC made clips. So the stores that sold the rifles likely also imported (?) the clips. The ammo to go with that, well that's the question. I do see large numbers in $$$$ I wonder what that contract was really all about. First they pay $$$$ to the State for delivering faulty ammo, next they get a nice contract (ofcourse the company name was changed...) Edited November 12, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) So some Italian made ammo did make it to the US.... this one was produced in 1953. Italian SMI is the most common to be found in Europe (b.t.w. also for the clips, I believe WCC made no clips so SMI clips were to be used). But so it seems Italian made SMI 6.5 Carcano ammo made it to the US. Some other 6.5 were given to the lab but I have not yet found the headstamps on those. But some stores said they never sold WCC, they did sell the SMI 939 or other SMI (939 indication production date, 939 = 1939, so really old and probably recharged and fitted with a hunting load) It is clear - and just like Gary said - the WCC 6.5 carcano ammo was not that common... Edited November 24, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ceulemans Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 On 11/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Benjamin Cole said: I still want to know...does anyone know what happened to the bulk of the 4 million WC 6.5 rounds that were manufactured? Where were they distributed? I'm sure Gary will have a lot more to say on this, but have you read the FBI file with information given by the informant on the Greece-Canada-Sucher transfers ? It possibly didn't happen that way according Gary, but it's a good read. Sucher (in the files also referred to as Zuker / Zucker / ...) did provide some data to the FBI on ammo he shipped to various dealers (but not adding up to 2,000,000 ) I have those documents printed, but I can provide the links if you like (will have to look'm up first) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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