The Finding of the Sniper's Nest

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Does this suggest his truthfulness before the Warren Commission?

Why pretend this is credible? This is Batchelor talking, not Sawyer, trying to remember what he'd heard a month before. No one saw anyone running out of the building with a gun. The 30-30/Winchester bit almost certainly came from the statements of Brennan and Euins. One of the top shows at the time was The Rifleman, in which Chuck Connors as Lucas McCain fired a Winchester rifle...a model that could be rapid fired. By telling the DPD he thought it was a Winchester, Euins was saying two of the shots rang out within a second or so of each other, and not the 3 seconds or so one would expect if it had been a bolt-action rifle. So the problem with the timing of the shots--that two of the shots were fired too close together to have come from the M/C rifle--was there from the beginning, in the very first witness statements. 

[Alan Ford]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Why pretend this is credible?

Why pretend it's uncredible? It explains an otherwise perplexing broadcast from Insp. Sawyer.

When asked for a clothing description, he says, "Current witness can't remember that". This, all on its own, rules out Mr. Brennan as the source of the description.

And Mr. Euins says a witness was on the scene talking about seeing a man running from the building. This is known in the trade as corroboration.

Here's Insp. Sawyer's 'description' of the witness: "I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things I can remember about him." He left out 'He appeared to be a member of the human race'. It's just laughable. The man's lying.

[Pat Speer]

Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct? 
Mr. SAWYER. That's correct. 
Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there? 
Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here." 
Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator? 
Mr. SAWYER. That was after. 
Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out? 
Mr. SAWYER. That was after. 
Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time? 
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45. 
Mr. BELIN. What did you say then? 
Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." 
Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?" 
Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle." 
Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?" 
Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that." 

The apparent solution is that the description sent out was a combo of what Brennan and Euins had told Sawyer. Brennan described the shooter and Euins--the current witness who couldn't ID the clothing--described it as a Winchester. Sawyer never said anything about anyone seeing someone run out of the building with the rifle. Batchelor, however, took Sawyer's broadcast to mean a witness had seen someone run out with the rifle. And an excited Euins somehow mis-remembered Brennan--the construction worker--as saying as much. My guess would be that Brennan told Sawyer he saw the man and Sawyer asked if he'd seen him leave the building, and Brennan said no. But Euins mis-heard him. But it's also possible that by the time he testified he'd heard about Richard Randolph Carr--a construction worker who said he saw someone on the sixth floor who he later saw walking down the street--and conflated his story with Brennan's. In any event, no one ran out of the building while carrying a rifle. Nobody said such a thing at the time or after. There were hundreds of people in the area. No one saw such a thing. And it makes no sense to begin with. There are very few parking spaces in the area that could be reached without passing by dozens of witnesses, and carrying a rifle while in flight in a crowd makes little sense. As anyone who's played Fortnite can tell you, a handgun is much more useful in his circumstance. And it has the added benefit of concealment. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Why pretend this is credible? This is Batchelor talking, not Sawyer, trying to remember what he'd heard a month before. No one saw anyone running out of the building with a gun. The 30-30/Winchester bit almost certainly came from the statements of Brennan and Euins. One of the top shows at the time was The Rifleman, in which Chuck Connors as Lucas McCain fired a Winchester rifle...a model that could be rapid fired. By telling the DPD he thought it was a Winchester, Euins was saying two of the shots rang out within a second or so of each other, and not the 3 seconds or so one would expect if it had been a bolt-action rifle. So the problem with the timing of the shots--that two of the shots were fired too close together to have come from the M/C rifle--was there from the beginning, in the very first witness statements. 

 

[Alan Ford]

10 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The apparent solution is that the description sent out was a combo of what Brennan and Euins had told Sawyer. Brennan described the shooter and Euins--the current witness who couldn't ID the clothing--described it as a Winchester. Sawyer never said anything about anyone seeing someone run out of the building with the rifle. Batchelor, however, took Sawyer's broadcast to mean a witness had seen someone run out with the rifle. And an excited Euins somehow mis-remembered Brennan--the construction worker--as saying as much. My guess would be that Brennan told Sawyer he saw the man and Sawyer asked if he'd seen him leave the building, and Brennan said no. But Euins mis-heard him.

The 'apparent solution'? Really, Mr. Speer?

------------Insp. Sawyer hears Mr. Brennan describe the shooter, including a clothing description

------------Mr. Euins hears Mr. Brennan give this description of a man shooting from the window and somehow mis-hears it as 'a man with a bald spot running from the building'

------------Insp. Sawyer holds off on putting out a description until he has spoken with......

------------Mr. Euins, who describes a black shooter, but can offer no description of rifle (beyond 'it looked like a rifle') nor any physical description beyond ethnicity

------------Insp. Sawyer then puts out a description ignoring what Mr. Euins has told him but putting 'Winchester' in his mouth ; forgetting, even when asked in follow-up by Dispatcher, how Mr. Brennan described the suspect's clothing; not mentioning the window the man was last seen at; taking a big leap by assuming that officers should be on the look out for a man carrying a Winchester rifle (as though checking the window in question might not be a good idea)

------------Assistant Chief Batchelor sees fit, in January, to pluck out of thin air for the benefit of FBI S.A. Drain, without even speaking with Insp. Sawyer himself, a story about a witness who saw a man running from the building

------------A couple months later, Mr. Euins tells his wild mis-memory of what Mr. Brennan said he saw, and this wild mis-memory just so happens to coincide with the wild story Asst. Chief Batchelor has unpublicly passed on to S.A. Drain.

Improbability heaped on improbability heaped on improbability.

[Alan Ford]

From the 11/22/63 affidavit of Mr. Jack Dougherty---------------------

From the 11/22/63 statement by Mr. J. C. Price, who witnessed the assassination from the roof of the Terminal Annex Building:

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT!

What if Mr. Price is being accurately quoted in his signed statement? What if he did not hallucinate that shot he heard "as much as five minutes later"?

And...............

What if Mr. Dougherty really did hear only one shot? What if he was going up in the noisy freight elevator at the time of the shots at 12:30pm and so did not hear them, but then, as much as five minutes later, he was 'getting stock' at the rear of the fifth floor when he heard a single loud bang?

 

[Alan Ford]

2 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

From the 11/22/63 affidavit of Mr. Jack Dougherty---------------------

From the 11/22/63 statement by Mr. J. C. Price, who witnessed the assassination from the roof of the Terminal Annex Building:

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT!

What if Mr. Price is being accurately quoted in his signed statement? What if he did not hallucinate that shot he heard "as much as five minutes later"?

And...............

What if Mr. Dougherty really did hear only one shot? What if he was going up in the noisy freight elevator at the time of the shots at 12:30pm and so did not hear them, but then, as much as five minutes later, he was 'getting stock' at the rear of the fifth floor when he heard a single loud bang?

 

Speaking of "as much as five minutes later", is there any evidence of human presence on the sixth floor?

Yes, there very much is----------------

From Judge HYER's window, Mrs. [Lillian] MOONEYHAM noted a number of bystander running toward the cement pavilion which borders Elm Street between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

From the 11/22/63 affidavit of Mr. Jack Dougherty---------------------

From the 11/22/63 statement by Mr. J. C. Price, who witnessed the assassination from the roof of the Terminal Annex Building:

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT!

What if Mr. Price is being accurately quoted in his signed statement? What if he did not hallucinate that shot he heard "as much as five minutes later"?

And...............

What if Mr. Dougherty really did hear only one shot? What if he was going up in the noisy freight elevator at the time of the shots at 12:30pm and so did not hear them, but then, as much as five minutes later, he was 'getting stock' at the rear of the fifth floor when he heard a single loud bang?

 

I discuss this on my website, in my Pinning the Tale on the Oswald chapter. They were both five flights up, above the noise of the street, and they both heard a loud sound well after others heard a loud sound. I conclude this sound was Baker and Truly slamming the hatch door to the roof, as they came back down. The key bit of testimony is actually Truly's. He said he saw Dougherty working on the fifth floor as they came down. So Dougherty comes out of the break room (or bathroom, let's be realistic) AFTER the shots were fired, and AFTER Baker and Truly have run upstairs, and goes back to work on the sixth, then down to the fifth (now vacant as Norman, Jarman, and Williams have already ran down to the fourth) and hears a loud sound from above--essentially the elevator shaft as opposed to the open window in the corner. He continues working as Baker and Truly descend in the east elevator, but then realizes from the noises outside that something is going on. Whereupon he descends in the west elevator and runs into Eddie Piper, who tells him Kennedy has been shot. This scenario answers numerous questions but was dismissed, if even pondered, by the WC lawyers because...it has Dougherty taking the west elevator up a few minutes after the shooting, when Baker and Truly said it was on a high floor just minutes before. IOW, if one puts together the pieces (Dougherty claiming he went upstairs after 12:30, his failure to see or hear N, W, and J on the fifth floor, their simultaneous failure to see him, his hearing a sound from above and not from the SE window, and Truly's seeing him on the fifth floor as he came down) in a manner that makes sense, it becomes obvious that some unidentified person took the west elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up.  

And that Oswald (as a result of his being seen on the second floor by Baker and Truly) wasn't that person. 

 

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

The 'apparent solution'? Really, Mr. Speer?

------------Insp. Sawyer hears Mr. Brennan describe the shooter, including a clothing description

------------Mr. Euins hears Mr. Brennan give this description of a man shooting from the window and somehow mis-hears it as 'a man with a bald spot running from the building'

------------Insp. Sawyer holds off on putting out a description until he has spoken with......

------------Mr. Euins, who describes a black shooter, but can offer no description of rifle (beyond 'it looked like a rifle') nor any physical description beyond ethnicity

------------Insp. Sawyer then puts out a description ignoring what Mr. Euins has told him but putting 'Winchester' in his mouth ; forgetting, even when asked in follow-up by Dispatcher, how Mr. Brennan described the suspect's clothing; not mentioning the window the man was last seen at; taking a big leap by assuming that officers should be on the look out for a man carrying a Winchester rifle (as though checking the window in question might not be a good idea)

------------Assistant Chief Batchelor sees fit, in January, to pluck out of thin air for the benefit of FBI S.A. Drain, without even speaking with Insp. Sawyer himself, a story about a witness who saw a man running from the building

------------A couple months later, Mr. Euins tells his wild mis-memory of what Mr. Brennan said he saw, and this wild mis-memory just so happens to coincide with the wild story Asst. Chief Batchelor has unpublicly passed on to S.A. Drain.

Improbability heaped on improbability heaped on improbability.

Euins was almost certainly the source of both the Winchester 30-30 and the bald spot. Winchester 30-30's were probably the most famous automatic rifle in America, as a result of the TV show The Rifle Man, and most every teenage boy in America would associate a rapid volley of shots with that rifle. 

(11-22-63 signed statement to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 16H963, 19H474) “I saw the President turn the corner in front of me and I waived at him and he waived back. I watched the car on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot. I started looking around and then I looked up in the red brick building. I saw a man in the window with a gun and I saw him shoot twice…I could tell the gun was a rifle and it sounded like an automatic rifle the way he was shooting. This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just saw this man for a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this man before.”

(12-14-63 FBI report, CD205 p12) "He said after the President's car started down the hill, he heard what he thought was a car backfire and he looked around and also glanced at the TSBD building, and on the fifth floor where he he had seen what he thought to be a metal rod, he noticed a rifle in the window and saw the second and third shots fired. He stated he saw a man's hand on what appeared to be the trigger housing and he could also see a bald spot on the man's head. He stated he did not see the face of this individual and could not identify him. He said he was sure this man was white, because his hand extended outside the window on the rifle. He stated he also heard what he believes was a fourth shot, and that the individual in the window, after firing the fourth shot, began looking around and he (EUINS) at this time hid behind a concrete partition.

[Alan Ford]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I discuss this on my website, in my Pinning the Tale on the Oswald chapter. They were both five flights up, above the noise of the street, and they both heard a loud sound well after others heard a loud sound. I conclude this sound was Baker and Truly slamming the hatch door to the roof, as they came back down. The key bit of testimony is actually Truly's. He said he saw Dougherty working on the fifth floor as they came down.

So Mr. Truly notices Mr. Dougherty on five as he & Officer Baker are passing five on the descending east elevator?

[Alan Ford]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Euins was almost certainly the source of both the Winchester 30-30 and the bald spot. Winchester 30-30's were probably the most famous automatic rifle in America, as a result of the TV show The Rifle Man, and most every teenage boy in America would associate a rapid volley of shots with that rifle. 

(11-22-63 signed statement to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 16H963, 19H474) “I saw the President turn the corner in front of me and I waived at him and he waived back. I watched the car on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot. I started looking around and then I looked up in the red brick building. I saw a man in the window with a gun and I saw him shoot twice…I could tell the gun was a rifle and it sounded like an automatic rifle the way he was shooting. This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just saw this man for a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this man before.”

(12-14-63 FBI report, CD205 p12) "He said after the President's car started down the hill, he heard what he thought was a car backfire and he looked around and also glanced at the TSBD building, and on the fifth floor where he he had seen what he thought to be a metal rod, he noticed a rifle in the window and saw the second and third shots fired. He stated he saw a man's hand on what appeared to be the trigger housing and he could also see a bald spot on the man's head. He stated he did not see the face of this individual and could not identify him. He said he was sure this man was white, because his hand extended outside the window on the rifle. He stated he also heard what he believes was a fourth shot, and that the individual in the window, after firing the fourth shot, began looking around and he (EUINS) at this time hid behind a concrete partition.

Mr. Euins says he saw a bald spot on the shooter at the window, and afterwards heard a witness describe a man with a bald spot running from the building with a rifle. What's so complicated about this? The idea that he would 'mis-hear' Mr. Brennan's description of a man shooting from the window as a man running from the building is still wildly implausible.

As for the ethnicity of the man Mr. Euins saw, Mr. James Underwood leaves us in no doubt as to what Mr. Euins was telling police on the scene: "He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle [...] I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes, sir""

Even if we were to buy into your The Rifle Man explanation for Insp. Sawyer's "looked like [my emphasis, A. F.] a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester" (quite a reach!), I'm afraid an eye-watering stack of improbabilities remains undisposed of:

------------Insp. Sawyer hears Mr. Brennan describe the shooter, including a clothing description

------------Mr. Euins hears Mr. Brennan give this description of a man shooting from the window and somehow mis-hears it as 'a man with a bald spot running from the building'

------------Insp. Sawyer holds off on putting out a description until he has spoken with......

------------Mr. Euins, who describes a 'colored' shooter, but can offer no physical description beyond ethnicity

------------Insp. Sawyer then puts out a description ignoring what Mr. Euins has told him about a 'colored' shooter; forgetting, even when asked in follow-up by Dispatcher, how Mr. Brennan described the suspect's clothing; not mentioning the window the man was last seen at; taking a big leap by assuming that officers should be on the look out for a man carrying a Winchester rifle (as though checking the window in question might not be a good idea)

------------Assistant Chief Batchelor sees fit, in January, to pluck out of thin air for the benefit of FBI S.A. Drain, without even speaking with Insp. Sawyer himself, a story about a witness who saw a man running from the building

------------A couple months later, Mr. Euins tells his wild mis-memory of what Mr. Brennan said he saw, and this wild mis-memory just so happens to coincide with the wild story Asst. Chief Batchelor has unpublicly passed on to S.A. Drain.

Makes no sense, Mr. Speer.

[Pat Speer]

Amos Euins. Beyond the confusion as to Euins' location during the shooting, there is considerable confusion over Euins' earliest statements, and whether or not he said the shooter was a white man or a black man. Statements regarding his identification of the shooter's race have been highlighted. (11-22-63 report to KRLD and CBS by Jim Underwood, about 30 minutes after the assassination) "As I told you earlier, a youngster said that he saw a colored man fire three times from the window of that building... one of the officers found a small colored boy who said he thought he saw a man fire from about the fourth floor window of the school book depository building." (Note: this officer was D.V. Harkness, who never confirmed nor denied Underwood's claim Euins said the shooter was black.) (11-22-63 signed statement to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 16H963, 19H474) “I saw the President turn the corner in front of me and I waived at him and he waived back. I watched the car on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot. I started looking around and then I looked up in the red brick building. I saw a man in the window with a gun and I saw him shoot twice…I could tell the gun was a rifle and it sounded like an automatic rifle the way he was shooting. This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just saw this man for a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this man before.” (11-29-63 memorandum from SA Leo Robertson in the Dallas FBI files, as found in the Weisberg Archives) "Amos Lee Euins...advised that on the day of the assassination he was standing on the the northeast corner of the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets. He stated that the car in which the President was riding had turned the corner and was proceeding on down Elm. He stated since he could no longer see the President's car, he happened to glance up and noticed what appeared to be the barrel of a rifle protruding from a window near the top of the Texas School Book Depository Building. He stated he saw a man's hand on what appeared to be the rifle stock and that he knew it was a rifle because he heard the shots fired. He stated he could not tell anything about the man and that he never saw anything other than what appeared to be his hand on the stock." (12-14-63 FBI report, CD205 p12) "He said after the President's car started down the hill, he heard what he thought was a car backfire and he looked around and also glanced at the TSBD building, and on the fifth floor where he he had seen what he thought to be a metal rod, he noticed a rifle in the window and saw the second and third shots fired. He stated he saw a man's hand on what appeared to be the trigger housing and he could also see a bald spot on the man's head. He stated he did not see the face of this individual and could not identify him. He said he was sure this man was white, because his hand extended outside the window on the rifle. He stated he also heard what he believes was a fourth shot, and that the individual in the window, after firing the fourth shot, began looking around and he (EUINS) at this time hid behind a concrete partition. He said he saw this individual withdraw his rifle and step back in the window... Euins advised he could not distinguish the features of the man standing at the window, and as he had previously stated, he only saw his hand and a bald spot on his head." (12-23-63 FBI report, CD205 p.i) “Amos Lee Euins, age 14, states saw white man…in window…with rifle after first shot and observed this man fire second and third shots and what he believes may have been a fourth shot.” (3-10-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 2H201-210) ‘then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was backfire. Everybody else started looking round. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again... I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again. (When asked how many shots he heard) “I believe there was four to be exact…After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity… The first shot I was standing here… And as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B… I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.” (When asked what he saw in the building) "I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window." (When asked what kind of a look he got at the shooter) "All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this." (When asked for the record if he means the man was looking down the rifle) "Yes, sir, and I could see the spot on his head." (When asked to describe the man) "I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand." (When asked if he was slender or fat) "I didn't get to see him." (When asked if he could tell if he was tall or short) "No." (When asked the man's race) "I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded." (When asked if he could tell if the man was black or white) "No, sir." (When asked by an incredulous Arlen Specter 'Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head." (When asked if he could tell the color of the man's hair) "No, sir." (When asked if he could tell if his hair was dark or light) "No, sir." (When asked how far back the bald spot stretched) "I would say about right along in here." (Specter then asks: "Indicating about 2 1/2 inches above where you hairline is. Is that about what you are saying? To which Euins responds) "Yes, sir; right along in here." (When asked again if he'd got a good look at the man) "No, sir; I did not." (When asked if he could tell anything about the man's clothes) "No, sir." (Specter then reads Euins the statement he'd signed in which he claimed the shooter was a white man. He is then asked if the statement refreshes his memory) "No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head." (When then asked if his best recollection was that he doesn't know if the man was a white man or a negro) "Yes, sir." (When then asked if he'd told the police he'd seen a white man, or if they'd made a mistake) "They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head."

(4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of KRLD reporter James Underwood) (Describing the aftermath of the shooting, 6H167-171) "I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice." (When asked "Euins?") "It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes, sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice." (4-9-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of officer D.V. Harkness, 6H308-315) (When asked by David Belin if he remembered anything Euins had told him beyond that the shots had come from the sniper's nest window) "No, sir." (When then asked if Euins had said he'd seen a rifle.) "He couldn't tell." (Note that this last response is at odds with Euins' own statements, and suggests Harkness was being deliberately vague about Euins' statements to him outside the building. Well, this in turn, suggests Euins DID tell Harkness he saw a black man, and that Harkness was under pressure to deny Euins told him anything beyond that the shots came from the sniper's nest. Or not. It also seems possible Harkness was anticipating Belin's asking him about Euins' statements regarding the race of the shooter, and responded to that question instead of the one in the transcript--about the rifle.) (March 1964 account of Dallas Morning News reporter Kent Biffle, reporting on the witnesses he saw and heard in Dealey Plaza just after the shooting on 11-22-63, published in an 11-19-78 Dallas Times Herald article, and subsequently published in JFK Assassination: The Reporters' Notes, 2013) (After first running to the grassy knoll to see what was going on) "I ran east toward the Texas School Book Depository. 'A policeman was talking to a black boy. 'It was a colored man done it. I saw him' the boy was saying. The boy was pointing toward the upper levels of the building." (5-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels, 7H332-350) (When asked if he'd interviewed Euins in Dealey Plaza a short period after the shots had been fired) "Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white." (11-21-64 AP article found in the Brandon Manitoba Sun) "Amos Lee Euins, 16, schoolboy who went with friends to the end of the motorcade route because he thought they could get a better view than in the crowds downtown. He saw the president fine. And also saw a rifle being withdrawn from the sixth floor of the Depository. Ever since the phone has been ringing at the Euins home. Often it is a man with a heavy voice saying "Amos better be careful with what he says. I have a complete copy of what he told police." "I got a phone call just last week," said Amos' mother, Eva, 40. "Twenty minutes later he called back. It sounded like the same heavy voice. I don't think it's a prank "cuz no grown man is going to play that much. It. makes me uneasy, it really does." The Euins' told police but didn't ask for protection and none was offered. There have been a lot of crank calls to figures in the assassination. Meanwhile at the Euins home a light burns on the front and back porches all night. Amos doesn't usually take the bus to school. Members of the family take him by car. He isn't allowed to roam too far alone. Amos does not appear concerned over the calls." (12-15-64 interview with Dallas Police Officer J. Herbert Sawyer as reported in FBI File 105-82555, sec. 224, p39) "Sawyer continued that only one other person was brought to him who had reportedly seen the assassin. This person was a young negro boy named Euins. However, upon talking to this youth, it was determined that the boy could not describe the subject, not even to the detail as to whether the man he had seen had been a white man or a negro."

Edited November 17, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

9 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Amos Euins. Beyond the confusion as to Euins' location during the shooting, there is considerable confusion over Euins' earliest statements, and whether or not he said the shooter was a white man or a black man. Statements regarding his identification of the shooter's race have been highlighted. (11-22-63 report to KRLD and CBS by Jim Underwood, about 30 minutes after the assassination) "As I told you earlier, a youngster said that he saw a colored man fire three times from the window of that building... one of the officers found a small colored boy who said he thought he saw a man fire from about the fourth floor window of the school book depository building." (Note: this officer was D.V. Harkness, who never confirmed nor denied Underwood's claim Euins said the shooter was black.) (11-22-63 signed statement to the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 16H963, 19H474) “I saw the President turn the corner in front of me and I waived at him and he waived back. I watched the car on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot. I started looking around and then I looked up in the red brick building. I saw a man in the window with a gun and I saw him shoot twice…I could tell the gun was a rifle and it sounded like an automatic rifle the way he was shooting. This was a white man, he did not have on a hat. I just saw this man for a few seconds. As far as I know, I had never seen this man before.” (11-29-63 memorandum from SA Leo Robertson in the Dallas FBI files, as found in the Weisberg Archives) "Amos Lee Euins...advised that on the day of the assassination he was standing on the the northeast corner of the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets. He stated that the car in which the President was riding had turned the corner and was proceeding on down Elm. He stated since he could no longer see the President's car, he happened to glance up and noticed what appeared to be the barrel of a rifle protruding from a window near the top of the Texas School Book Depository Building. He stated he saw a man's hand on what appeared to be the rifle stock and that he knew it was a rifle because he heard the shots fired. He stated he could not tell anything about the man and that he never saw anything other than what appeared to be his hand on the stock." (12-14-63 FBI report, CD205 p12) "He said after the President's car started down the hill, he heard what he thought was a car backfire and he looked around and also glanced at the TSBD building, and on the fifth floor where he he had seen what he thought to be a metal rod, he noticed a rifle in the window and saw the second and third shots fired. He stated he saw a man's hand on what appeared to be the trigger housing and he could also see a bald spot on the man's head. He stated he did not see the face of this individual and could not identify him. He said he was sure this man was white, because his hand extended outside the window on the rifle. He stated he also heard what he believes was a fourth shot, and that the individual in the window, after firing the fourth shot, began looking around and he (EUINS) at this time hid behind a concrete partition. He said he saw this individual withdraw his rifle and step back in the window... Euins advised he could not distinguish the features of the man standing at the window, and as he had previously stated, he only saw his hand and a bald spot on his head." (12-23-63 FBI report, CD205 p.i) “Amos Lee Euins, age 14, states saw white man…in window…with rifle after first shot and observed this man fire second and third shots and what he believes may have been a fourth shot.” (3-10-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 2H201-210) ‘then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was backfire. Everybody else started looking round. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again... I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again. (When asked how many shots he heard) “I believe there was four to be exact…After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity… The first shot I was standing here… And as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B… I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.” (When asked what he saw in the building) "I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window." (When asked what kind of a look he got at the shooter) "All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this." (When asked for the record if he means the man was looking down the rifle) "Yes, sir, and I could see the spot on his head." (When asked to describe the man) "I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand." (When asked if he was slender or fat) "I didn't get to see him." (When asked if he could tell if he was tall or short) "No." (When asked the man's race) "I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded." (When asked if he could tell if the man was black or white) "No, sir." (When asked by an incredulous Arlen Specter 'Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head." (When asked if he could tell the color of the man's hair) "No, sir." (When asked if he could tell if his hair was dark or light) "No, sir." (When asked how far back the bald spot stretched) "I would say about right along in here." (Specter then asks: "Indicating about 2 1/2 inches above where you hairline is. Is that about what you are saying? To which Euins responds) "Yes, sir; right along in here." (When asked again if he'd got a good look at the man) "No, sir; I did not." (When asked if he could tell anything about the man's clothes) "No, sir." (Specter then reads Euins the statement he'd signed in which he claimed the shooter was a white man. He is then asked if the statement refreshes his memory) "No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head." (When then asked if his best recollection was that he doesn't know if the man was a white man or a negro) "Yes, sir." (When then asked if he'd told the police he'd seen a white man, or if they'd made a mistake) "They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head."

(4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of KRLD reporter James Underwood) (Describing the aftermath of the shooting, 6H167-171) "I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice." (When asked "Euins?") "It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes, sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice." (4-9-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of officer D.V. Harkness, 6H308-315) (When asked by David Belin if he remembered anything Euins had told him beyond that the shots had come from the sniper's nest window) "No, sir." (When then asked if Euins had said he'd seen a rifle.) "He couldn't tell." (Note that this last response is at odds with Euins' own statements, and suggests Harkness was being deliberately vague about Euins' statements to him outside the building. Well, this in turn, suggests Euins DID tell Harkness he saw a black man, and that Harkness was under pressure to deny Euins told him anything beyond that the shots came from the sniper's nest. Or not. It also seems possible Harkness was anticipating Belin's asking him about Euins' statements regarding the race of the shooter, and responded to that question instead of the one in the transcript--about the rifle.) (March 1964 account of Dallas Morning News reporter Kent Biffle, reporting on the witnesses he saw and heard in Dealey Plaza just after the shooting on 11-22-63, published in an 11-19-78 Dallas Times Herald article, and subsequently published in JFK Assassination: The Reporters' Notes, 2013) (After first running to the grassy knoll to see what was going on) "I ran east toward the Texas School Book Depository. 'A policeman was talking to a black boy. 'It was a colored man done it. I saw him' the boy was saying. The boy was pointing toward the upper levels of the building." (5-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels, 7H332-350) (When asked if he'd interviewed Euins in Dealey Plaza a short period after the shots had been fired) "Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white." (11-21-64 AP article found in the Brandon Manitoba Sun) "Amos Lee Euins, 16, schoolboy who went with friends to the end of the motorcade route because he thought they could get a better view than in the crowds downtown. He saw the president fine. And also saw a rifle being withdrawn from the sixth floor of the Depository. Ever since the phone has been ringing at the Euins home. Often it is a man with a heavy voice saying "Amos better be careful with what he says. I have a complete copy of what he told police." "I got a phone call just last week," said Amos' mother, Eva, 40. "Twenty minutes later he called back. It sounded like the same heavy voice. I don't think it's a prank "cuz no grown man is going to play that much. It. makes me uneasy, it really does." The Euins' told police but didn't ask for protection and none was offered. There have been a lot of crank calls to figures in the assassination. Meanwhile at the Euins home a light burns on the front and back porches all night. Amos doesn't usually take the bus to school. Members of the family take him by car. He isn't allowed to roam too far alone. Amos does not appear concerned over the calls." (12-15-64 interview with Dallas Police Officer J. Herbert Sawyer as reported in FBI File 105-82555, sec. 224, p39) "Sawyer continued that only one other person was brought to him who had reportedly seen the assassin. This person was a young negro boy named Euins. However, upon talking to this youth, it was determined that the boy could not describe the subject, not even to the detail as to whether the man he had seen had been a white man or a negro."

 

It appears from the timeline that Euins initially told Harkness the man was black, or was at least believed to have said as much. He was a young excitable boy, speaking in a strong accent. It could have been a miscommunication. In any event, he stopped saying as much within minutes, and eventually started claiming he never said the man was white, either. 

Was he scared of something or someone? Or just a young kid? 

[Alan Ford]

32 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

(4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of KRLD reporter James Underwood) (Describing the aftermath of the shooting, 6H167-171) "I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice." (When asked "Euins?") "It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes, sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice." (4-9-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of officer D.V. Harkness, 6H308-315) (When asked by David Belin if he remembered anything Euins had told him beyond that the shots had come from the sniper's nest window) "No, sir." (When then asked if Euins had said he'd seen a rifle.) "He couldn't tell." (Note that this last response is at odds with Euins' own statements, and suggests Harkness was being deliberately vague about Euins' statements to him outside the building. Well, this in turn, suggests Euins DID tell Harkness he saw a black man, and that Harkness was under pressure to deny Euins told him anything beyond that the shots came from the sniper's nest. Or not. It also seems possible Harkness was anticipating Belin's asking him about Euins' statements regarding the race of the shooter, and responded to that question instead of the one in the transcript--about the rifle.) (March 1964 account of Dallas Morning News reporter Kent Biffle, reporting on the witnesses he saw and heard in Dealey Plaza just after the shooting on 11-22-63, published in an 11-19-78 Dallas Times Herald article, and subsequently published in JFK Assassination: The Reporters' Notes, 2013) (After first running to the grassy knoll to see what was going on) "I ran east toward the Texas School Book Depository. 'A policeman was talking to a black boy. 'It was a colored man done it. I saw him' the boy was saying. The boy was pointing toward the upper levels of the building." (5-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission of Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels, 7H332-350) (When asked if he'd interviewed Euins in Dealey Plaza a short period after the shots had been fired) "Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white." (11-21-64 AP article found in the Brandon Manitoba Sun) "Amos Lee Euins, 16, schoolboy who went with friends to the end of the motorcade route because he thought they could get a better view than in the crowds downtown. He saw the president fine. And also saw a rifle being withdrawn from the sixth floor of the Depository. Ever since the phone has been ringing at the Euins home. Often it is a man with a heavy voice saying "Amos better be careful with what he says. I have a complete copy of what he told police." "I got a phone call just last week," said Amos' mother, Eva, 40. "Twenty minutes later he called back. It sounded like the same heavy voice. I don't think it's a prank "cuz no grown man is going to play that much. It. makes me uneasy, it really does." The Euins' told police but didn't ask for protection and none was offered. There have been a lot of crank calls to figures in the assassination. Meanwhile at the Euins home a light burns on the front and back porches all night. Amos doesn't usually take the bus to school. Members of the family take him by car. He isn't allowed to roam too far alone. Amos does not appear concerned over the calls." (12-15-64 interview with Dallas Police Officer J. Herbert Sawyer as reported in FBI File 105-82555, sec. 224, p39) "Sawyer continued that only one other person was brought to him who had reportedly seen the assassin. This person was a young negro boy named Euins. However, upon talking to this youth, it was determined that the boy could not describe the subject, not even to the detail as to whether the man he had seen had been a white man or a negro."

So Mr. Underwood and Mr. Biffle clearly heard Mr. Euins insist the shooter was 'colored', but all law enforcement parties closed ranks after the event and pretended it never happened. 'Miscommunication'? 'Young excitable boy, speaking in a strong accent'? Nope. Just standard cover-up shenanigans.

Which leaves us back with Insp. Sawyer putting out a suspect description that doesn't work for either Mr. Euins or Mr. Brennan. Thankfully, Asst. Chief Batchelor explains the true source of the description.

[Pat Speer]

6 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

So Mr. Underwood and Mr. Biffle clearly heard Mr. Euins insist the shooter was 'colored', but all law enforcement parties closed ranks after the event and pretended it never happened. 'Miscommunication'? 'Young excitable boy, speaking in a strong accent'? Nope. Just standard cover-up shenanigans.

Which leaves us back with Insp. Sawyer putting out a suspect description that doesn't work for either Mr. Euins or Mr. Brennan. Thankfully, Asst. Chief Batchelor explains the true source of the description.

I believe Euins wrote and signed a statement saying it was a white man before Oswald had even been arrested, but it would be interesting to nail this all down. It could be that he originally believed and said it was a black man, and was coerced into saying it was a white man after Oswald had been arrested. And that the DPD then covered their tracks. If so, well, then it appears he tried to wiggle out of it by saying he'd never said it was a black man or a white man. This might explain then why he was so scared in the years after the shooting, and why he kept such a low profile over the decades to follow.