Paul Landis

[Richard Booth]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

that smells to high heaven and sounds like something a very senior person might start claiming late in life. 

I know, many of us on the forum are seniors. Well... 

Some of my best friends are seniors. A very good friend who I talked to almost every day died last year, he was 72.  Right now another very good friend is in his 70s. 

Anyway. They both are/were very sharp and absolutely would never fabricate something. 

Wish I could figure out Landis' motive for saying all this.  It has the impression of bolstering the chain of custody and origin of CE399. Before Landis came out with his story this magic bullet was found on a stretcher in the hospital, which is suspicious. Then DiEugenio & co in JFK Revisited documented major chain of custody problems with that bullet after it was found.

Landis' comments have the appearance of trying to make CE399's discovery somehow more credible and believable. 

[Pat Speer]

27 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

The only thing that makes sense is that he impulsively picked it up, then he got scared about getting involved and put it on the stretcher because he was fearful about becoming involved in the investigation in any way.

However, until he says that, his story will remain not credible. He needs to explain why he broke chain of custody like that. 

Has anyone asked him WHY he put the bullet on the stretcher?  I'm not at all familiar with his story. I am not going to buy his book. The only exposure I have with the Landis material is that Reiner podcast. 

Whether or not it was Landis who put the bullet, presumably CE 399, on a stretcher, it should be pointed out that it appears someone put a bullet on a stretcher. The so-called magic bullet, CE 399, is purported to have been found on a stretcher near the elevator. The WC claimed it had been Connally's stretcher, but Tink Thompson, back in 1967, effectively argued that it had been instead the stretcher of a little boy, Ronnie Fuller. In any event, it never made much sense that this bullet fell out of Connally's leg and then clothing and then ended up on his stretcher...after the sheets had been removed and folded up. It always made more sense that someone put the bullet there. The HSCA spoke to someone who recalled seeing an SS agent standing near the stretcher where the bullet was found. And ten years ago or so a man came forward claiming to have been a friend of agent Sam Kinney, who claimed Kinney had told him he'd placed the bullet on the stretcher. This actually makes some sense, as Kinney was the agent who, perhaps innocently, and in a state of shock, began cleaning up the rear seat of the limo outside Parkland, and who never admitted as much in his reports. IF he found a bullet in the back seat, he may very well have placed it on what he assumed was JFK's stretcher, as opposed to admitting he'd found it while improperly cleaning up the limo. 

FWIW, here is some news footage of Kinney taking the bucket he'd used for this clean-up back into the hospital. 

P.S. If Landis was telling his story to support the single-assassin solution and SBT, he would have claimed he'd found the bullet on Connally's seat and placed it on the stretcher where it was found. That his story diverges from the official story makes it a CT story, and he knows it, as he now says he believes there was more to it than just Oswald. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Richard Booth]

Just now, Pat Speer said:

it should be pointed out that it appears someone put a bullet on a stretcher. The so-called magic bullet, CE 399, is purported to have been found on a stretcher near the elevator.

Right. And people, upon being informed of this, are quite naturally very suspicious.

Paul Landis' story serves to try to explain the planting of this bullet. 

I'm not buying.

Interesting stuff re: Kinney. Had never heard that before.

[Pat Speer]

4 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

Right. And people, upon being informed of this, are quite naturally very suspicious.

Paul Landis' story serves to try to explain the planting of this bullet. 

I'm not buying.

Interesting stuff re: Kinney. Had never heard that before.

I added a P.S. to my last comment but you responded before I could finish it. Here it is.

 

P.S. If Landis was telling his story to support the single-assassin solution and SBT, he would have claimed he'd found the bullet on Connally's seat and placed it on the stretcher where it was found. That his story diverges from the official story makes it a CT story, and he knows it, as he now says he believes there was more to it than just Oswald. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Richard Booth]

10 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

P.S. If Landis was telling his story to support the single-assassin solution and SBT, he would have claimed he'd found the bullet on Connally's seat and placed it on the stretcher where it was found. That his story diverges from the official story makes it a CT story, and he knows it, as he now says he believes there was more to it than just Oswald. 

That is a very good point. Perhaps he's just making this up to sell a book. 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Richard Booth said:

Has anyone asked him WHY he put the bullet on the stretcher?  I'm not at all familiar with his story. I am not going to buy his book. The only exposure I have with the Landis material is that Reiner podcast. 

Just think of all the answers you could be obtaining about this subject if you would just click on the link I provided earlier. (And it's a subject that you and I seem to agree on, 100%.)

Oh well.....your loss.

 

[Richard Booth]

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

This is what he said:

17:39
"I raced to the President's limosine. Mrs. Kennedy was sitting on left center of the rear seat. There was a pool of blood next to Mrs. Kennedy. She stood up, right behind where she had been sitting there was a pristine bullet. I picked this bullet up. It was not disformed other than recognized striations on it."

 

I don't care if he said the bullet was in a pool of bood or next to the pool of blood. What bothers me is he claims he just left the bullet on a stretcher next to Kennedy's shoe and didn't tell anyone. That makes no sense.

RB--

Your concerns are valid.

However...Jim Robenalt, who helped Landis write the book, was not a CT'er.

In late 2013, for the City Club of Cleveland, Robenalt hosted Howard Willens and Burt Griffin, Warren Commission lawyers, for a 1:18 talk. Willens and Griffin are staunch defenders of the WC and the LN narrative. 

As you can see, the talk is entitled, "The True Story of the Warren Commission."  Robenalt is a gracious and accepting host. Griffin and Willens, WC'ers, are hardcore WC defenders. 

But in a recent interview with Larry Schnapf and Jeff Morley, Robenalt said he has confidence in Landis. He describes Landis as lucid and active. 

The short story, as I understand it, is this: Landis was in a daze post-JFKA (that's believable). So, he did what he did, thinking he had left evidence where it would be found. 

Landis somewhat realized what he did was wrong, and he more or less detached from 11/22 thereafter. He left the Secret Service shortly after the JFKA and had a varied career, and says he did not involve himself in the JFKA thereafter, even passively. 

Landis testified to the HSCA, and left out his finding of the spent slug, although he did say he thought the shots had come from the front. 

But late in life Landis looked at the JFKA topic again, and realized the official record needed cleaning up, and he himself came clean. 

I will say this: The Landis version explains the shallow wound in JFK's back. An undercharged slug struck JFK in his back, entered perhaps an inch or two, and was pushed out by the shock wave of subsequent impacts. 

Pat Speer says the use of undercharged slugs is mentioned in CIA literature and I have confirmed that. 

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/ciaguat2.html

In the JFKA, I suspect someone hand-loaded a previously used WCC 6.5 cartridge, leaving behind the "dent" or crimp seen on one of the three recovered shells. Whether the shell was amateurishly hand-loaded due to a lack or ammo, or was done under CIA plotter's supervision...well, who knows? LHO, or other party, evidently had only four rounds. 

JFK's throat wound is a mystery, but perhaps Pat Speer/Tink Thompson are right, it was a bone fragment exiting the throat, or perhaps it was small glass shard from the windshield, also pushed out by subsequent impacts. 

If you can find the Robenalt interview both Schnapf and Morley, I recommend it. 

 

 

[Marcus Fuller]

I always think that stories like this, or at least ones based on memories, are often correct at their core, just some of the fine details might be off. Also, I don't think the timing means that he was telling porkies necessarily. If you've held onto that knowledge for nearly 60 years, waiting until a suitable time to release it seems more like common sense than anything. 

[Richard Booth]

22 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Landis somewhat realized what he did was wrong, and he more or less detached from 11/22 thereafter

Has he said that--that he realized it was wrong?

 

[Richard Booth]

 

FWIW, I can absolutely buy incompetence and fear as being motivations to keep quiet and ditch the bullet. 

 

[Nick Bartetzko]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RB--

Your concerns are valid.

However...Jim Robenalt, who helped Landis write the book, was not a CT'er.

In late 2013, for the City Club of Cleveland, Robenalt hosted Howard Willens and Burt Griffin, Warren Commission lawyers, for a 1:18 talk. Willens and Griffin are staunch defenders of the WC and the LN narrative. 

As you can see, the talk is entitled, "The True Story of the Warren Commission."  Robenalt is a gracious and accepting host. Griffin and Willens, WC'ers, are hardcore WC defenders. 

But in a recent interview with Larry Schnapf and Jeff Morley, Robenalt said he has confidence in Landis. He describes Landis as lucid and active. 

The short story, as I understand it, is this: Landis was in a daze post-JFKA (that's believable). So, he did what he did, thinking he had left evidence where it would be found. 

Landis somewhat realized what he did was wrong, and he more or less detached from 11/22 thereafter. He left the Secret Service shortly after the JFKA and had a varied career, and says he did not involve himself in the JFKA thereafter, even passively. 

Landis testified to the HSCA, and left out his finding of the spent slug, although he did say he thought the shots had come from the front. 

But late in life Landis looked at the JFKA topic again, and realized the official record needed cleaning up, and he himself came clean. 

I will say this: The Landis version explains the shallow wound in JFK's back. An undercharged slug struck JFK in his back, entered perhaps an inch or two, and was pushed out by the shock wave of subsequent impacts. 

Pat Speer says the use of undercharged slugs is mentioned in CIA literature and I have confirmed that. 

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB4/ciaguat2.html

In the JFKA, I suspect someone hand-loaded a previously used WCC 6.5 cartridge, leaving behind the "dent" or crimp seen on one of the three recovered shells. Whether the shell was amateurishly hand-loaded due to a lack or ammo, or was done under CIA plotter's supervision...well, who knows? LHO, or other party, evidently had only four rounds. 

JFK's throat wound is a mystery, but perhaps Pat Speer/Tink Thompson are right, it was a bone fragment exiting the throat, or perhaps it was small glass shard from the windshield, also pushed out by subsequent impacts. 

If you can find the Robenalt interview both Schnapf and Morley, I recommend it. 

 

 

The understanding of what happened is clearer now than ever. The back wound was indeed shallow and it was confirmed by an autopsy tech that the back probe simply pushed against intact chest tissue, but did not go through. Two SS agents claimed to have placed a bullet in Parkland. It is to me irrelevant which agent was covering for the other’s mishandling of evidence. The Pat Speer/Tink Thompson bone fragment exit theory is interesting and coincides with no metal residue being found on the front of the shirt and tie, but does not explain Dr Perry’s very specific comment to Weisberg in 1966 at Parkland that the wound had a ring of bruising that is consistent with a wound of entry. Dr Perry wiped blood from that wound and saw the ring of bruising. Unless a small, exiting fragment of bone can cause a ring of bruising, it is now a moot point. It doesn’t also explain why someone would cut such a large opening in the neck. The only conclusion is an attempt to retrieve something. 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

 

FWIW, I can absolutely buy incompetence and fear as being motivations to keep quiet and ditch the bullet. 

 

My guess is you are on target, although "incompetence" might be harsh.  "Dazed" or "not thinking clearly." 

But who knows? I guess the Landis story is real...but as for proof....

[Richard Booth]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My guess is you are on target, although "incompetence" might be harsh.  "Dazed" or "not thinking clearly." 

But who knows? I guess the Landis story is real...but as for proof....

Well, moving forensic evidence then not telling anyone about it - when you're a LEO participating in the biggest investigation of your career - that is incompetence to my mind. But I guess it is harsh. Hindsight is 20/20 right?

I can buy not thinking clearly, and I can absolutely buy fear.  Imagine being an FBI agent in 1963, if you are the guy who finds key evidence you're going to be terrified about how Mr. Hoover will have his eyes on you.  I can imagine someone in USSS might feel similar pressure and have similar fears and just not want to be involved at all. 

Occams Razor tells us it's likely just a mistake. It's very hard to know.

[David Von Pein]

While performing an online newspaper search for "Paul Landis, Secret Service" on the morning of September 11, 2023, I came across the 1983 newspaper article seen below, which contains an interesting passage that totally contradicts Landis' new 2023 claims. The '83 article says:

"Landis said that when he got to the Kennedy limousine outside the hospital, the president had already been taken inside, but he helped Mrs. Kennedy out. He said there was a bullet fragment on the top of the back seat that he picked up and gave to somebody."

So, in 1983, Mr. Landis was saying it was merely a "bullet fragment" that he picked up in the limo, which he "gave to somebody". But now, forty years later in 2023, it's a whole bullet (not just a fragment) which he didn't give to anyone but which he himself carried into the hospital and placed on JFK's stretcher.

Looks like Mr. Landis' credibility issues just got a lot worse.

 

And then there's also this......

 

Fred Litwin, in this article on his website, posted a quote from The Columbus Dispatch newspaper dated November 20, 1988, which confirms something that is also found in this November 1983 newspaper article that I posted online on September 11th, 2023:

The 1988 paper (seen in the pictures below), like the 1983 Associated Press newspaper article that I previously posted, says that Mr. Landis "picked up" a bullet "fragment" (not a whole bullet) and "handed" that fragment "to somebody".

So we now have two different newspaper accounts in the 1980s, five years apart, of Paul Landis saying to two different reporters that he had picked up only a "fragment" of a bullet, and that he had given that fragment "to somebody" (vs. Landis himself carrying any type of bullet or fragment into the hospital).

Also note that in the 1988 article seen below, the reporter/interviewer has placed quotation marks around these key words:

"I distinctly remember there was a bullet fragment on the seat which I picked up and handed to somebody."

So the reporter in 1988 is representing those words as having been directly spoken by Paul Landis. It's not being represented as merely something coming from the interviewer's memory of what Landis said, because there are quotation marks around that entire sentence.

The fact that we now have access to two different newspaper articles featuring interviews with Paul Landis that include the exact same information, with those articles and interviews being conducted some five years apart, virtually guarantees that Mr. Landis was not "misquoted" in either article concerning those two key "fragment" and "gave it to somebody" issues.

And Landis is, indeed, now saying that he was misquoted in at least one publication concerning those two important elements of his story. But the notion that two different interviewers (one in 1983 and another in 1988) both made the same mistakes and misquoted Landis in the exact same manner when it comes to both of those bullet-related issues does not seem to me to be a very credible or believable argument for Mr. Landis to be making.
-------------------------------

-------------------------------------

FWIW....

Here's what I think happened....

Paul Landis really did see and pick up a bullet fragment (not a whole bullet) off of the back seat of the Presidential limousine at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963. He then might very well have given that fragment to someone else nearby, with that person never being identified.

And, it would seem, that particular bullet fragment which Mr. Landis handled never came to light as evidence either. But we must keep in mind that a lot of tiny fragments from the fatal head shot that were probably scattered all over the car and in Dealey Plaza were never introduced as official evidence either. After all, more than half of the bullet that struck President Kennedy in the head was never found or recovered at all.

But now, in 2023, for some unknown reason, that bullet fragment (which he gave to someone else at Parkland on 11/22/63) has now been embellished by Mr. Landis and has morphed into a whole bullet (the CE399 "stretcher bullet" or so-called "magic bullet"), with Landis embellishing things further by also now saying he took that whole bullet into the hospital himself and placed it on JFK's stretcher in the emergency room.

So, in my opinion, Mr. Landis' current story probably does contain a layer of truth in it, which is very common among witnesses who have, shall we say, enhanced or added things to their assassination stories over the years (with Jean Hill, Roger Craig, and Buell Wesley Frazier coming to mind as three such examples).

I think Paul Landis probably did see (and perhaps also pick up) a small bullet fragment in the limousine. That's the "layer of truth" that exists in his account. And the two newspaper articles from the 1980s cited above tend to confirm that "layer of truth". But the remainder of Landis' current 2023 story just simply cannot be believed, in my opinion.

Mr. Landis, IMO, needs to be confronted with BOTH of the above newspaper articles at the same time, which each say the very same thing concerning the matter of the "bullet fragment".

I'd be interested to know if Landis thinks he was misquoted in both of those articles, five years apart.

Lots More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2023/06/paul-landis.html

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by David Von Pein