Rob Reiner talks about two Oswalds

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

Quote

I'll bet that the points made by Jeremy ... were either matters of opinion; trivial solutions like a silly mistake was made; or some other lame points

Well, there's a good way to find out, isn't there? Read the remarks in question. I even gave links to each comment, and told everyone which page they were on.

I know that ignoring objections is really the only way to continue believing in the far-fetched double-doppelgänger nonsense, but Sandy has no excuse for boasting about doing so.

Quote

He says, "[I explained] why Burroughs was an unreliable witness." How does Jeremy expect Jim to reply to that?

I would expect him to address the points I made, of course, and deal with each of the reasons I gave to show that Burroughs was an unreliable witness.

But Jim didn't do that. Instead, he followed his long-standing modus operandi: ignore the counter-arguments, and keep repeating the claims that have just been debunked. See my previous comment for a particularly blatant example of this.

Since Sandy didn't read it last time, I'll repeat the non-debunked evidence I put forward to show that Jim's original claim ("The 'Oswald lookalike' in the balcony that Butch Burroughs saw detained by police ...") is mistaken:

• Burroughs never claimed to have seen anyone come down the stairs from the balcony, apart from seeing a lone woman some time before the police entered the building.
• Burroughs could not have seen into the balcony from his position at the concession stand at the back of the auditorium, and so could not have seen the police detain anyone up there.
• Burroughs' story developed over time. In 1964, when appearing before the Warren Commission, he failed to mention anything about seeing an Oswald lookalike being arrested.
• Burroughs didn't even mention this story to Jim Marrs in 1987. Marrs was keen to find evidence of conspiracy, and surely would have asked Burroughs if he had seen anything suspicious.
• Burroughs mentioned the story of an arrest for the first time in 1993, 30 years after the arrest of the one and only Oswald.
• Burroughs expanded his story in 2007, 44 years after the event, when talking to James Douglass. In this version, the person was not only arrested but also placed in handcuffs.

I made a couple of other points, also ignored by Jim:

• The police reports about an arrest in the balcony were made by officers who probably weren't there.
• The notion that two Oswalds, members of an H&L-style top-secret double-doppelgänger project, would each have given the game away by telling the cops that his name was Oswald, is ludicrous.

I also provided a link to a more comprehensive debunking of this alleged incident, so that Jim could check the arguments and documentary evidence for himself. Here's that link again, for Sandy's benefit:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/?do=findComment&comment=407170

It's clear that Burroughs did not see what Jim Hargrove claims he saw.

To return to Sandy's question, I would expect Jim to have dealt with each of the points I raised, and done so honestly. The ball was in his court: I explained why Burroughs was an unreliable witness; if he thought my arguments and evidence didn't stand up, he had the opportunity and obligation to explain why.

But he didn't, did he? He simply repeated his original claim, as he usually does.

I hope that when Jim gets back, he either deals honestly with the points I made (you at the back there, stop sniggering!) or admits that Burroughs was in fact an unreliable witness and that there is no good reason to believe that an Oswald lookalike was arrested in the Texas Theater.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:52 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

On the subject of Jim Hargrove ignoring objections and simply repeating claims that have just been debunked, those of you who were browsing the forum in 2020 may remember this classic example:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26639-the-stripling-episode-harvey-lee-a-critical-review/

On 2/1/2024 at 2:52 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Mark Stevens demolished an important batch of H&L eye-witness 'evidence'.

 

I followed and commented in that thread. There was nothing substantive in Mark Stevens' argument. But by all means, everybody read the thread if you want.

The only thing useful that came out of that thread is that one of the H&L critics noticed that two different names were used by an important H&L witness, former Stripling Junior High principal. The critic made a big deal about it, saying that it proved the H&L witness was unreliable. Unsurprisingly it turned out that the H&L critic was wrong. It was John Armstrong who made the mistake... in one place for Jim's website he accidentally used the name of the Stripling principal when Oswald attended, instead of the one in 1963 when the FBI took all the records on Oswald's attendance there.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:26 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

The following FBI document, an internal teletype from 11/30/63, was withheld from public view for three decades.

URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB
TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK
FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/
NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON
LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS - R
ON NOV. THIRTY INSTANT, JACK D. TIPPIT, SELF EMPLOYED
CARTOONIST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES AND WIFE, ONE SIX FOUR
NEW TOWN TURNPIKE, WESTPORT, CONN., ADVISED AS FOLLOWS. AT
APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT
RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN WHO ASKED IF
MR. TIPPIT WAS A POLICEMAN AND IF HE WAS RELATED TO THE POLICE-
MAN TIPPIT WHO WAS SHOT IN DALLAS. MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER
HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER
TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER. ON ANOTHER EXTENSION
JACK TIPPIT LISTENED TO BALANCE OF PHONE CALL. THE WOMAN SAID
SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE. THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
WOULD BE KILLED.
THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW. WHEN MRS. TIPPIT TRIED TO FIND OUT WHOSE
BROTHER IN LAW THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW.
THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. THE WOMAN SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT WEINSTOCK THE EDITOR OF QUOTE WOMAN-S WORLD
UNQUOTE BUT DID NOT GIVE FURTHER DETAILS.. THE WOMAN SAID THE
END PAGE TWO

PAGE THREE:

GROUP IN NEW YORK PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, THAT OF
COURSE THEY WOULD DENY THIS BUT SHE KNEW IT TO BE TRUE.
SHE THEN HUNG UP ABRUPTLY. THE WOMAN NEVER GAVE ANY REASON
FOR HER CALL WHICH SOUNDED LOCAL. MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH. BOTH FELT THE WOMAN SOUNDED LIKE
A MATURE ADULT AND DID NOT HAVE A YOUTHFUL VOICE.
MR. TIPPIT EXPLAINED WOMAN MAY HAVE OBTAINED HIS IDENTITY
FROM AN ARTICLE ON PAGE ONE OF NORWALK, CONN. QUOTE HOUR
UNQUOTE FOR NOVEMBER TWENTYFIVE LAST, WHICH STATED THAT WE MAY
BE A DISTANT RELATIVE OF THE DALLAS POLICEMAN. TIPPIT SAID
ARTICLE RESULTED FROM TELEPHONE CALL FROM REPORTER WHO WAS
CHECKING ALL TIPPITS IN LOCAL TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES.
BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

An image of the actual document can be seen HERE.

 

 

Jim,

I'm beginning to believe that the above FBI document really does explain (or rather, helps to explain) the origin of HARVEY Oswald. The thing that got me to take it much more seriously is an argument put forth in this Paul Jolliffe post:

 

Paul argues that the FBI would have known the NYC Communist leaders mentioned in the report, and that they buried the report because it contained Oswald information that was far too sensitive to leave the report filed as usual.

You did say that that report was buried for thirty years. The significance of that didn't hit me till I saw Paul spelling it out.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

Those familiar with Armstrong's body of research may be able to identify convergence, overlap, or discrepancies with the timeline of Oswald found in the private datebook maintained by Pierre Lafitte then living in New Orleans.
 

March 26

McWillie — guns

with Davis - Oswald

 

April 7

Walker — Lee and pictures

Planned soon —

Can he do it? Wait [Won’t]

 

May 10

T says tail LO - no direct

contacts - calls? No

report to Angleton + not

here (wife) Rene says A

looks like cadaver -

Mexico City? 

 

May 23

Ask T about Oswald

Magazine? Kane and

Zale NY.

 

May 28

Oswald

 

July 23

Oswald — wife M —

Where

 

August 26

Oswald — bank?

M — meet T.

 

September 16

T. says L.O. is ‘idiot’

but w be used regardless

Set-up complete

 

September 22

Oswald — Mex City

Gaudet?

 

September 24

Oswald. D/T.

(Labadie / Florida)

W.J.

 

September 26

O. traveling

(Let T. know)

Madrid

 

September 27

Oswald — Commercio Hotel to

meet with Tom D at Luma —

T. Says yes

 

October 6

Oswald — issue (!)

check with

Caretaker . . .

 

October 9

………

T says

called Oswald to purpose — weapons—

…………

October 17

JA call yest.

Says high - level

gathering in D.C.

Lancelot - go - ok

Oswald - others

 

October 25

O says done

Oswald set in place

call Walker + others

 

November 9

On the wings of murder the

pigeon way for unsuspecting

Lee.  Clip clip his wings

 

November 22

Merde merde xxxx xxxx

—O Tippett  why?

Run sparrow run

fly!

—ask JA who is Tippett! ?

 

(possible references to Lee Oswald)

 

May 26

—L.O. — Wisner

    Vosjoli  D.C.  JA

 

October 27

Gali Sherbatov — L.O.

(Orlov)

(Itkin)

-Harvey-

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/30/2024 at 4:06 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Burroughs never claimed to have seen anyone detained in the balcony. I dealt with this particular 'Harvey and Lee' canard some time ago in the following comment:

As I indicated above, Douglass wrote: "His lookalike sneaked into the theater at 1:45 P.M. and, like Oswald, went immediately up the balcony stairs. By the time Burroughs witnessed the Oswald double’s arrest, he had also come down the balcony stairs on the far side of the lobby, either on his own or already accompanied by police who had been checking the balcony."

According to Lt. Cunningham, he and Det. Taylor and Det. Toney were questioning a young man in the balcony when they heard someone shout 'here he is' from the lower level. 

Deputy Buddy Walters reported: "Some unknown officer was holding a white man at the steps of the balcony and I proceeded on into the balcony."

Bill Courson wrote: "I started up the stairs of the balcony because that is where the call said that he was hiding.  I'm reasonably satisfied in my own mind that I met Oswald coming down.  I was looking for a man in a white or light colored jacket...."

 

And, again, there are not one but two Dallas Police reports indicating "Lee Harvey Oswald" was arrested in the balcony of the Dallas Theater.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/28/2024 at 8:12 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

@Jim Hargrove knows the code word for the Oswald Project. Sorry, I don't recall what it is.

According to CIA accountant James Wilcott, the Agency cryptonym for the Oswald Project was RX-ZIM.

 

For much more on this see: https://harveyandlee.net/Wilcott/Wilcott.htm

EDIT: Also, Sandy, it's going to take a couple of days for me to absorb at least most of the substance of the fellow from Budapest's messages.  It seems like it might be very relevant to the long-suppressed FBI report on the anonymous phone call to the Tippit's of Connecticut, but there is a lot of material to digest, and I've just returned from vacation. 

Do you think we should start a new thread to go on with this?

Edited February 11 by Jim Hargrove

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

According to CIA accountant James Wilcott, the Agency cryptonym for the Oswald Project was RX-ZIM.

The Mary Ferrell Foundation website reports that the alleged cryptonym "RX-ZIM" is "speculative" and "not corroborated."

Cryptonym: RXZIM (maryferrell.org)

Also, there is no other cryptonym listed at MFF that begins with "RX."

[Jonathan Cohen]

And once again Jim Hargrove is re-posting the same thing year after year, thread after thread, while refusing to acknowledge the mountain of evidence completely discrediting Wilcott's claims (which Tracy has so helpfully summarized below. There was no such thing as the "Oswald Project."

https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/james-wilcott.html

Edited February 11 by Jonathan Cohen

[Sandy Larsen]

19 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

...mountain of evidence completely discrediting Wilcott's claims...

 

I'm confident that Jonathan just made that up.

I recommend that anybody who wishes to see the "discrediting" evidence have a look at it and confront Jim Hargrove on any of it that you think is substantive.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Do you think we should start a new thread to go on with this?

 

I think you should have a thread dedicated to the call to Mrs. Tippits of Connecticut. I think you start from scratch so that it includes everything that is known.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

23 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And once again Jim Hargrove is re-posting the same thing year after year, thread after thread, while refusing to acknowledge the mountain of evidence completely discrediting Wilcott's claims (which Tracy has so helpfully summarized below. There was no such thing as the "Oswald Project."

https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/james-wilcott.html

Thanks for the mention, Jonathan. BTW, in re-reading my article I see that Wilcott, when under oath before the HSCA, couldn't remember the cryptonym or the name of the employee who told him about it.

[Jim Hargrove]

22 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

BTW, in re-reading my article I see that Wilcott, when under oath before the HSCA, couldn't remember the cryptonym or the name of the employee who told him about it.

Of course, Tracy should know, according to HSCA staff, government attorney Michael Goldsmith had a 

“…. desire  to insure secrecy of Wilcott testimony.  Goldsmith said Committee did not want any public revelation on his committee appearance.

“Schapp, Wilcott attormey refused.  Agreed not to reveal specifics of specific questions.”

Wilcott could not publicly reveal specifics, eh?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

51 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Of course, Tracy should know, according to HSCA staff, government attorney Michael Goldsmith had a 

What does the fact that they did not want Wilcott to publicly reveal potentially classified information have to do with what I said? The point is when given the opportunity under oath (and under penalty of perjury) to reveal the alleged cryptonym, Wilcott refused.

BTW, for lurkers who are unaware, Jim has posted this "information" previously possibly on more than one occasion. He is renowned for his "data dumps" as Jonathan pointed out.