David Von Pein Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 PAT SPEER SAID [BACK IN OCT. 2007 at the John McAdams newsgroup]: To support that three evenly-spaced shots were fired by a bolt-action rifle, he [DVP] uses Warren Commission testimony taken 4 months or more after the assassination, after the witnesses had been told by the media and their government that Oswald had acted alone. He avoids the earliest statements of the witnesses like the plague. .... This is not chaff, by any means. A competent and committed defense attorney could establish reasonable doubt on this fact alone. DAVID VON PEIN SAID: When thinking some more about witness Harold Norman and his comments made after President Kennedy's assassination, this thought struck me: The argument about the SPACING between the gunshots that Norman heard is really kind of an irrelevant and unimportant argument. Why? Because regardless of the exact number of seconds that passed between the three shots, ALL THREE OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE SAME RIFLE ABOVE NORMAN'S HEAD. And surely no conspiracy theorist wants to propose a theory that has TWO gunmen and TWO different rifles being fired from the Sniper's Nest window on the 6th Floor directly above Mr. Norman's head....do they? Therefore, no matter what the precise spacing was between the shots, per Norman's never-wavering "I HEARD THREE SHOTS FROM ABOVE ME" account of the shooting, it HAS to mean that the ONE gunman WAS able to fire those three shots from the gunman's ONE rifle in the allotted time to get off three such shots from his bolt-action weapon. The same argument I just made regarding Norman could also be made when it comes to many of the other Dealey Plaza witnesses, i.e., the witnesses who fall into the following category: I HEARD EXACTLY THREE SHOTS AND ALL OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF THE BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING. That is to say: What major difference does it really make what the precise SPACING was between these three shots, which were ALL shots (per those witnesses in the category just mentioned) that VERY LIKELY CAME FROM THE VERY SAME GUN? So, given these parameters that many witnesses DO agree on (i.e., exactly THREE shots fired and all coming from ONE rear location at or very near the Texas School Book Depository Building), the "spacing" issue is largely a moot point altogether. David Von Pein October 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Coleman Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, David Von Pein said: PAT SPEER SAID [BACK IN OCT. 2007 at the John McAdams newsgroup]: To support that three evenly-spaced shots were fired by a bolt-action rifle, he [DVP] uses Warren Commission testimony taken 4 months or more after the assassination, after the witnesses had been told by the media and their government that Oswald had acted alone. He avoids the earliest statements of the witnesses like the plague. .... This is not chaff, by any means. A competent and committed defense attorney could establish reasonable doubt on this fact alone. DAVID VON PEIN SAID: When thinking some more about witness Harold Norman and his comments made after President Kennedy's assassination, this thought struck me: The argument about the SPACING between the gunshots that Norman heard is really kind of an irrelevant and unimportant argument. Why? Because regardless of the exact number of seconds that passed between the three shots, ALL THREE OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE SAME RIFLE ABOVE NORMAN'S HEAD. And surely no conspiracy theorist wants to propose a theory that has TWO gunmen and TWO different rifles being fired from the Sniper's Nest window on the 6th Floor directly above Mr. Norman's head....do they? Therefore, no matter what the precise spacing was between the shots, per Norman's never-wavering "I HEARD THREE SHOTS FROM ABOVE ME" account of the shooting, it HAS to mean that the ONE gunman WAS able to fire those three shots from the gunman's ONE rifle in the allotted time to get off three such shots from his bolt-action weapon. The same argument I just made regarding Norman could also be made when it comes to many of the other Dealey Plaza witnesses, i.e., the witnesses who fall into the following category: I HEARD EXACTLY THREE SHOTS AND ALL OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF THE BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING. That is to say: What major difference does it really make what the precise SPACING was between these three shots, which were ALL shots (per those witnesses in the category just mentioned) that VERY LIKELY CAME FROM THE VERY SAME GUN? So, given these parameters that many witnesses DO agree on (i.e., exactly THREE shots fired and all coming from ONE rear location at or very near the Texas School Book Depository Building), the "spacing" issue is largely a moot point altogether. David Von Pein October 2007 How many heard evenly spaced shots? How many heard bang….bang bang? How many heard 3? How many heard more? Less? How many sourced the TSBD? The GK? Both? Theres a lot of theory computations there from a lot of people. Without a sound recording of the event, we’ll never know. Hold on, there was a sound recording……… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said: Hold on, there was a sound recording..... No there wasn't. The cycle with the open mic was miles away from Elm & Houston at 12:30. Edited January 27 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Of the three ear-witnesses on the TSBD fifth floor, two thought the shots had come from above them, and one thought the shots had come from below them. In addition, dozens and dozens of witnesses described a "bang...bang-bang" sequence of shots on 11/22. Gov. Connally thought the shots had entered the cab of the limo as if fired from an "automatic rifle." Amos Euins, very close to the TSBD and who witnessed the gunman, said he heard four shots. I do not understand the reasoning behind this post. One witness statement means....what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) A flurry of shells came into the limo. -Roy Kellerman Edited January 28 by Michael Crane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Cole Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Michael Crane said: A flurry of shells came into the limo. -Roy Kellerman Exactly. Kellerman's words echo those of Connally. My guess is someone was using a silenced semi-automatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Michael Crane said: A flurry of shells came into the limo. -Roy Kellerman Roy Kellerman's "flurry of shells [came] into the car" testimony can easily be reconciled within the "lone assassin" scenario: Kellerman merely heard the effects of the bullet that hit President Kennedy in the head (a bullet that was fired, of course, from the 6th Floor of the TSBD by Lee Oswald). Kellerman undoubtedly heard the two bullet fragments [CE567 and CE569] striking the chrome topping and the windshield of the limousine. Kellerman was sitting right next to this activity in the front of the car, and to him it sounded like a "flurry of shells" or "flurry of shots" coming into the car. (Kellerman said both of those things--"flurry of shells" and "flurry of shots"--during his Warren Commission testimony.) It makes total sense that Kellerman would, indeed, have possibly thought a "flurry of shells" or a "flurry of shots" (i.e., more than one "shell" or "shot") came "into the car". What would ANY of us have thought if we had heard what Roy Kellerman heard while sitting right next to the places where bullet fragments were clanking against the front parts of the automobile during the period of time when bullets were flying around Dealey Plaza? Would you have thought the clanking of bullets in the front part of the car was merely the result of bullet FRAGMENTS striking the automobile? Or would you possibly have thought that multiple ADDITIONAL bullets (or "shells") were being fired into the car? If it were me, I think I'd probably be inclined to think the latter. --------------------------- Another "Flurry" Discussion..... ROBERT HARRIS SAID: Recently, you suggested that when Roy Kellerman heard a "flurry of shells" come into the car, that he was referring to the sound of bullet fragments from the head explosion striking the windshield. Are you suggesting that the sound of a fragment glancing off the glass is so similar to that of a gunshot, that Mr. Kellerman was fooled? DAVID VON PEIN SAID: Of course that's what I am suggesting. Exactly that. From the totality of evidence that tells any reasonable person that ONLY THREE GUNSHOTS WERE FIRED in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, it's quite obvious that Mr. Kellerman's "flurry of shells" and/or "flurry of shots" were the sounds of the head-shot bullet fragments striking the interior portions of the limousine (the windshield and the metal/chrome near the windshield). Are you, Robert Harris, suggesting that the sounds of bullet fragments striking those objects RIGHT NEXT TO KELLERMAN IN THE CAR made NO audible sound whatsoever? Plus: There's the fact that Secret Service Agent Kellerman is a witness who is on record (at least twice) as having said he heard precisely THREE shots fired in Dealey Plaza. No more. No less. http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Kellerman+Flurry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy Bainbridge Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 How does the spacing of shots become moot merely because some people agree on the shot number? Yes more than person was observed in the sixth floor, so yes more than one person may have fired (I think the Loy Factor story relies on this). To my understanding the time between shots CANNOT exceed the time in which someone can reload, aim and fire a Manlicher Carcano (for the lone-nut theory). Please explain how again if I've got that wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) On 1/27/2024 at 3:49 AM, David Von Pein said: PAT SPEER SAID [BACK IN OCT. 2007 at the John McAdams newsgroup]: To support that three evenly-spaced shots were fired by a bolt-action rifle, he [DVP] uses Warren Commission testimony taken 4 months or more after the assassination, after the witnesses had been told by the media and their government that Oswald had acted alone. He avoids the earliest statements of the witnesses like the plague. .... This is not chaff, by any means. A competent and committed defense attorney could establish reasonable doubt on this fact alone. DAVID VON PEIN SAID: When thinking some more about witness Harold Norman and his comments made after President Kennedy's assassination, this thought struck me: The argument about the SPACING between the gunshots that Norman heard is really kind of an irrelevant and unimportant argument. Why? Because regardless of the exact number of seconds that passed between the three shots, ALL THREE OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE SAME RIFLE ABOVE NORMAN'S HEAD. And surely no conspiracy theorist wants to propose a theory that has TWO gunmen and TWO different rifles being fired from the Sniper's Nest window on the 6th Floor directly above Mr. Norman's head....do they? Therefore, no matter what the precise spacing was between the shots, per Norman's never-wavering "I HEARD THREE SHOTS FROM ABOVE ME" account of the shooting, it HAS to mean that the ONE gunman WAS able to fire those three shots from the gunman's ONE rifle in the allotted time to get off three such shots from his bolt-action weapon. The same argument I just made regarding Norman could also be made when it comes to many of the other Dealey Plaza witnesses, i.e., the witnesses who fall into the following category: I HEARD EXACTLY THREE SHOTS AND ALL OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF THE BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING. That is to say: What major difference does it really make what the precise SPACING was between these three shots, which were ALL shots (per those witnesses in the category just mentioned) that VERY LIKELY CAME FROM THE VERY SAME GUN? So, given these parameters that many witnesses DO agree on (i.e., exactly THREE shots fired and all coming from ONE rear location at or very near the Texas School Book Depository Building), the "spacing" issue is largely a moot point altogether. David Von Pein October 2007 The "flurry" was a result of silenced gunfire in addition to the non-silenced gunfire. 4 shots Kennedy 2 or 3 shots Conally 4 or 5 missed shots Possible 11 +shots. Edited January 30 by Michael Crane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Crane said: 4 shots Kennedy. 2-3 shots Con[n]ally. 4 or 5 missed shots. Possible 11+ shots. What a load of nonsense. 11+ shots? Hilarious. 4 more and you'll be in Bob Groden's ultra-fantasy territory. Edited January 28 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crane Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 7 hours ago, David Von Pein said: What a load of nonsense. 11+ shots? Hilarious. 4 more and you'll be in Bob Groden's ultra-fantasy territory. I guarantee you that 11 is closer than 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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