Donald Willis Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Whaley's "Neches" wrecks Warren Report's Oswald/Tippit timeline Apparently, the Warren Commission panicked when witness William W. Whaley went off-script, on 3/12/64, and testified that he dropped Oswald off at "Neches and North Beckley". (In his 11/23/63 affidavit, Whaley mentions only "500 block of North Beckley".) That would have screwed up the official eta of Oswald at 10th & Patton of 1:16. (Warren Report p158) As the WR says, "Neches is within one-half block of the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley where Oswald was living." (WRp162) That would, in fact, seem to have been an ideal spot for Oswald to get out of the cab--not right in front of the house, but close, as Norman Redlich here acknowledges. Close enough perhaps, that is, for Oswald to see without being seen. The Commission--which had all the time in the world--went so far as to recall Whaley, who capitulated and now said that he left Oswald off at "the intersection of Beckley and Neely" (4/8/64 testimony p429), at (as per the WR p158) 12:54. That would have meant a walk of about 6 minutes to get to the rooming house. (WR pp158, 163) Then another 3 minutes before departing, arriving at 10th & Patton about 1:16. (WRp158) A 13-minute walk. However, Whaley's blundering, out-of-left-field reference to "Neches" throws that timeline a bit out of whack. Dutifully, he retains "Beckley" through it all, from affidavit to testimony to corrected testimony. But as a cab driver, he must have known that Neches and Beckley did not actually intersect--certainly he did know by 11/22/63. In fact, that might have been where Oswald actually instructed him to go, Neches near Beckley. How else would Whaley have latched on to "Neches"? To reconstruct the adjusted timeline: Out of cab 12:54 on Neches. Rooming house 12:55. Leaving rooming house 12:58. 10th & Patton 1:11. Leaving Oswald patiently waiting around for Tippit to show up, four or five minutes later. However, no witness saw the gunman do any such waiting, just walking. Revised, adjusted timeline, then, for Oswald: Leaving rooming house 12:58. Arriving Texas Theatre 1:16. No stopovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 On 2/16/2024 at 4:26 PM, Donald Willis said: Leaving Oswald patiently waiting around for Tippit to show up, four or five minutes later. However, no witness saw the gunman do any such waiting, just walking. Revised, adjusted timeline, then, for Oswald: Leaving rooming house 12:58. Arriving Texas Theatre 1:16. No stopovers. Bullseye! Also an astute solution to the Neches puzzle. Nice work, Donald. The "LHO" who walked past the bricklayers on E 10th was another person altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Willis Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 27 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said: Bullseye! Also an astute solution to the Neches puzzle. Nice work, Donald. The "LHO" who walked past the bricklayers on E 10th was another person altogether. Thank you much, Michael. Taking another look at the Oak Cliff map, I see that the Houston St. viaduct issues directly into Beckley, no need to bring Neches into it at all IF Oswald had said "Take me to the 500 block of North Beckley." Pretty clearly, that's not what he told Whaley... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Not trying to steal Mr. Willis' thunder, but I've been talking about this very thing for many years. What always got me was his own admission of his 37 year knowledge of every corner in Dallas... Neches was not some random mistake. And there is no Neches & Beckley, of course. Thanks for bringing it up again Don... Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners. Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection? Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir. Mr. BALL. North side? Mr. WHALEY. Yes. Mr. BALL. That would be-- Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner. Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Willis Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 8 hours ago, David Josephs said: Not trying to steal Mr. Willis' thunder, but I've been talking about this very thing for many years. What always got me was his own admission of his 37 year knowledge of every corner in Dallas... Neches was not some random mistake. And there is no Neches & Beckley, of course. Thanks for bringing it up again Don... Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners. Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection? Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir. Mr. BALL. North side? Mr. WHALEY. Yes. Mr. BALL. That would be-- Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner. Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley. I'm glad to know that others have had their eyes on that "Neches", which stands out so oddly in Whaley's testimony. I had forgotten that Whaley said he was well-versed in the ways and byways of Dallas. Hoist by his own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 On 2/16/2024 at 4:26 PM, Donald Willis said: Revised, adjusted timeline, then, for Oswald: Leaving rooming house 12:58. Arriving Texas Theatre 1:16. No stopovers. Your thinking opens up an enticing possibility. The timing puts him on Beckley when Tippit & Mentzel are hunting him down, former on E 10th, latter on Zangs & W 10th. For more on this see Jim Hargrove's "DPD Dispatcher Alterations and Tippit Murder" thread. Oswald had boarded the Marsalis bus which would have taken him directly to the library, but he detoured to the boarding house in Whaley's cab. Leaving the boarding house, where is he going? Possibly the Texas Theater but that was not the primary destination. The library was, and walking from Beckley to E Davis to Crawford would put him in the vicinity of the Abundant Life Temple within a few minutes of Tippit's murder. Eventually he continued through the parking lot, crossed Jefferson in front of the ambulance at 1:19, and proceeded east on the south side of Jefferson which would have taken him directly to the library. The distance of this route from the rooming house to Jefferson is about .85 miles. It would not take 21 minutes without pausing or detouring, but hearing the shots that killed Tippit may have interrupted his progress. Cops began to arrive a few minutes after the ambulance causing him to reverse course, taking him past 401 E Jefferson, heading west onto the 300 block en route to the secondary destination, the TT. This is as far as I can take things for now, mulling the implications, hoping you take it seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Willis Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 6 hours ago, Michael Kalin said: Your thinking opens up an enticing possibility. The timing puts him on Beckley when Tippit & Mentzel are hunting him down, former on E 10th, latter on Zangs & W 10th. For more on this see Jim Hargrove's "DPD Dispatcher Alterations and Tippit Murder" thread. Oswald had boarded the Marsalis bus which would have taken him directly to the library, but he detoured to the boarding house in Whaley's cab. Leaving the boarding house, where is he going? Possibly the Texas Theater but that was not the primary destination. The library was, and walking from Beckley to E Davis to Crawford would put him in the vicinity of the Abundant Life Temple within a few minutes of Tippit's murder. Eventually he continued through the parking lot, crossed Jefferson in front of the ambulance at 1:19, and proceeded east on the south side of Jefferson which would have taken him directly to the library. The distance of this route from the rooming house to Jefferson is about .85 miles. It would not take 21 minutes without pausing or detouring, but hearing the shots that killed Tippit may have interrupted his progress. Cops began to arrive a few minutes after the ambulance causing him to reverse course, taking him past 401 E Jefferson, heading west onto the 300 block en route to the secondary destination, the TT. This is as far as I can take things for now, mulling the implications, hoping you take it seriously. Why would he be going to the library? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Willis Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 3 hours ago, Donald Willis said: Why would he be going to the library? I've been thinking more about your take on Oswald's itinerary after leaving the boarding house. First, though, the main thing is that--alighting from the cab on Neches rather than Neely--he would have gotten to 10th & Patton too early to have been, credibly, Tippit's killer, would, that is, have had to hang around that block woolgathering for 4 or 5 minutes. The main thing, that is, is the path that Oswald didn't take. Whatever the path that Oswald did take after 12:58 just has to deposit him at the movie theatre by what was it 1:45. I see that, to this aim, you take into account various sightings of him. The ambulance driver, yes, good. And the 300 block of Jefferson, yes. But the parking lot & 401 E. Jefferson... Coming south on Beckley and Crawford, he would seem to have been going the wrong way through the lot (southwards) to tally with any witness. Though I have elsewhere, I must admit, completely discounted all witnesses to the parking lot--Reynolds, Patterson, Brock, and Brock. And I have to admit that I'm unfamiliar with the importance of the library, except as a false alarm... But, yes, I can entertain other post-Neches scenarios other than an Oswald beeline for the theater, as long as the bee of course gets there by 1:45-6, with the start (as Applin said) of the second feature... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 7 hours ago, Donald Willis said: Why would he be going to the library? It was the primary rendezvous with a contact, a trap where Decker's posse of constables & deputies waited long before C.T. Walker's radio message. The point is Oswald would not have boarded the Marsalis bus if his original intention was to stop at either the boarding house or the theater. Much of this was discussed in two previous threads. 1. Steve Thomas' "Who were the Secret Service men at the Library?" 2. Cory Santos' "Interesting note from LHO arrest." My thinking then followed the conventional argument that Oswald went directly from Whaley's cab to the boarding house to the theater after rejecting the primary destination for the alternate. The Neches angle is causing me to reconsider this. More later... Edited February 19 by Michael Kalin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 7 hours ago, Donald Willis said: First, though, the main thing is that--alighting from the cab on Neches rather than Neely--he would have gotten to 10th & Patton too early to have been, credibly, Tippit's killer, would, that is, have had to hang around that block woolgathering for 4 or 5 minutes. The main thing, that is, is the path that Oswald didn't take. Whatever the path that Oswald did take after 12:58 just has to deposit him at the movie theatre by what was it 1:45. I see that, to this aim, you take into account various sightings of him. The ambulance driver, yes, good. And the 300 block of Jefferson, yes. But the parking lot & 401 E. Jefferson... Coming south on Beckley and Crawford, he would seem to have been going the wrong way through the lot (southwards) to tally with any witness. Though I have elsewhere, I must admit, completely discounted all witnesses to the parking lot--Reynolds, Patterson, Brock, and Brock. He was definitely not Tippit's killer. That role was played by the pedestrian encountered by Red Smith at 500 E 10th, or an accomplice. Relative to wool gathering, with Bowley's 1:10 as a terminus ante quem not much loitering is required to locate Oswald in the immediate vicinity at the time of Tippit's murder. As to the auto contingent (including Callaway & Russell), our discussions drove them back into the barrel of red herrings from which they had oozed -- bunged up, never again to stink out this case. Would you buy a used car from any of them? Edited February 19 by Michael Kalin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 This whole Neches-street thing could be an intentional error of the Warren guys just like Vickie Adams "seeing" Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor ... since Whaley corrected himself I don't see the point to discuss this topic ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Another two cents: Did it ever occur to anybody that Oswald could have been driven from Beckley 1026 to the Texas Theater by the never identified squad car which honked twice outside his rooming house when he was there for a short time? It would fit with Butch Burroughs statement that Oswald entered the Theater around 1 o'clock. (Some squad cars of the Dallas Police were sold in 1963 if I remember correctly ... and maybe bought by the plotters ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 10 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said: Another two cents: Did it ever occur to anybody that Oswald could have been driven from Beckley 1026 to the Texas Theater by the never identified squad car which honked twice outside his rooming house when he was there for a short time? It would fit with Butch Burroughs statement that Oswald entered the Theater around 1 o'clock. (Some squad cars of the Dallas Police were sold in 1963 if I remember correctly ... and maybe bought by the plotters ?) Did it ever occur to anybody that the honking squad car at the rooming house was driven by Mentzel? He was known to be searching for Oswald in the vicinity of Zangs at this time, prior to a dispatch to an automobile accident. Edited February 20 by Michael Kalin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 @Michael Kalin said: Quote Did it ever occur to anybody that the honking squad card at the rooming house was driven by Mentzel? He was known to be searching for Oswald in the vicinity of Zangs at this time, prior to a dispatch to an automobile accident. Which would be a harmless explanation and good fairy tale to cover the possibility that Oswald maybe was driven to the Texas Theater by a fake squad car. (If I remember correctly they never figured out the correct squad car number...) I like the following scenario: Maybe ... Oswald left Whaleys Taxi at Neely. He went to his contact at Nelly or Elsbeth Street (were he and Marina lived a couple of month) expecting that he would be driven to Redbird airport and to Mexico. Instead the manipulation of Oswald entered the last stage: The plotters told him that planes had changed provided him with a pistol and ordered him to go back to Beckley Street and wait for the honk signal of a fake squad car, which would put him to Texas Theater to met a contact there ... that would match with Burroughs observation that Oswald entered the Texas Theater around 1 o'clock. Without a car he could not make it. But there was no contact for Oswald in the Texas Theater. Instead ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Kalin Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Burroughs said, "Oswald slipped into the theater between 1:00 and 1:07 pm." A man who resembled Oswald passed by bricklayer Red Smith on E 10th heading directly to the Tippit murder scene. He was picked up by a red Ford near the Abundant Life Temple immediately after the murder and driven to the theater. The timing is close, nominally off by no more than a few minutes. This man is not the same Oswald who entered the boarding house on Beckley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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