Involvement of the Secret Service

[Vince Palamara]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Denise,

Like I said, I don't remember where I read this, but the change took place on the evening of November 21st, and it took the DPD by surprise.

A car full of policemen armed with tommy guns would not be totally out of line in light of what happened to Charles DeGaulle at Petit-Clamart in August, 1962.

wc testimony of Will Fritz

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you had been told the President or before November 22, 1963, you had been told that the President was coming to Dallas?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And had you taken certain precautions for his safety?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed. We were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly behind it, I don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the Vice President's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did make preparation for that.
But at 10 o'clock the night before the parade, Chief Stevenson called me at home and told me that had been changed, and I was assigned with two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the Trade Mart.

 

Captain. Purdue Lawrence was in charge of traffic control and parade security.

He was sumoned to a meeting on the afternoon of the 21st. William Lawson of the Secret Service was meeting with Curry and the Assistant Police Chiefs. They had already been meeting before he arrived:

WC testimony of Purdue Lawrence

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/lawrence.htm

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy

chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you met with the Secret Service, what do you recall that the Secret Service did discuss?
Captain LAWRENCE. I sat in on the discussion and I did not participate in any at all, and from what I heard there would be sufficient personnel inside the Trade Mart--they were discussing this, and these detectives assignments were not the ones that I was at that time primarily instructed in, so--I know that they had made some elaborate precautions, which no one discussed with me, but I don't remember all of the conversation that went on regarding that. I was particularly interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones I was listening for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that?
Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that the Secret Service man in there--when it was mentioned about these motorcycle officers alongside the Presidents car, he said, "No, these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward the car, if there was any movement at all where the President was endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun their motors and get between them and the Presidential car," and he mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and those words were mentioned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But was that concept of the security and the safety of the President spelled out in any certain details?
Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. Now, you see, I'm not familiar with .some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau commanders.

 

Now, someone who was there was Assistant Police Chief, M.Stevenson.

He submitted a combined after-action report signed by him, Charles Batchelor, and Charled L. Lumpkin. In their combined report, Stevenson wrote,

Combined After-Action Report of Assist Police Chiefs, M.W. Stevenson, Charles Batchelor and

Charles L. Lumpkin

Stevenson Ex 5053

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1138#relPageId=594

CE XXI, pp. 570-71

 

It was Lawson who nixed the idea.

Steve Thomas

Yes, Steve--Will Fritz wanted a car and so did Chief Curry. I made these points in my first book. Past motorcades used a Sheriff's car and a regular police car.

[Denise Hazelwood]

I also want to ask what is the best sort of vehicle to have after the President's car and the Secret Service follow-up car? Some are complaining that the Press car wasn't immediately in front of the President's car, which is apparently the usual order (?). But which is better, a bunch of cameras aimed at the POTUS, or SS and LE immediately ahead (which is what happened).  Some are complaining that a marked police car wasn't the next vehicle behind the POTUS or the POTUS follow-up. Well, they were immediately behind the main dignitaries (President, V.P., mayor) and the necessary security details. The motorcade vehicle order was: DPD lead motorcycles, Lead car (containing DPD chief, Dallas County Sheriff, and SS men), Presidential car with 4 DPD motorcycles at its rear fenders, the SS follow-up car, the VP car, the VP follow-up car, the mayor's car, the press pool car, 3 news cameramen cars, and more DPD motorcycle officers. (See http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/M Disk/Motorcade Route/Item 15.pdf) So maybe the press were a car or two behind their normal position immediately behind the President's Follow-up car, apparently), but they were still pretty close to the front. The cameramen weren't even filming the whole time, or they might have caught the shooter in the window on film. So I don't see anything nefarious about the motorcade order, beyond it being handled very sloppily and last-minute. But the SS et. al. didn't seem concerned with the potential danger from open windows along the way, only with crowds rushing the President--which obviously they should have been. Very sloppy. Not necessarily nefarious.

[Vince Palamara]

12 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Greer was involved only inasmuch as he idiotically “tapped the brake to test the tires” (per Clint Hill) when he thought he had a tire blowout and didn’t realize that there was a shooting taking place. But he didn’t shoot Kennedy or anything like that, as some people believe.

AGREED! I get this silly theory thrown at me all the time from non-researchers, especially on social media. Greer was suspect but he did NOT shoot JFK! 

 

[Vince Palamara]

 

[Ron Bulman]

11 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Rybka was assigned to Love Field during the Dallas leg of the trip. He wasn’t supposed to accompany the motorcade.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/palamara/ssrosters.html

Not according to Survivors Guilt.  

"While leaving Love Field on the way to the heart of Dallas, Agent Roberts rose from his seat and using his voice and several hand gestures, forced agent Donald J Lawton, and more than likely, the agent he immediately relieved, Henry Rybka, to fall back from the rear area of JFK's limousine, causing a perplexed Lawton to stop and raise his arms several times in disgust."  Pages 233-234.

It's interesting to note I think in Vinces' Roster and Duties list you linked that Lawton, O'Leary and Rybka at Love Field are at the end.  probably nothing.  But Lawton and Rybka did normally participate in JFK's personal protection.

Not sure why I thought it was Rybka waving his arms in disgust.  But he was there if Lawton was relieving him (?), in the parade initially.  I had forgotten Roberts standing up and apparently yelling and pointing at them then motioning and or yelling more for them to get back.  Away from the President's limousine.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a different version of the video below, taken from a little further away but much clearer of Lawton, or maybe called Rybka in it (?).  In this one you can see Roberts standing up for a split second near the end.  It's interesting to hear Clint Hill say Lawton or Rybka was saying to them as they passed by, Guess I'm going to lunch guys, have a good trip!

User Clip: SECRET SERVICE CONFUSION AT LOVE FIELD EXPLAINED | C-SPAN.org

[Denise Hazelwood]

2 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

Johns was adamant to me in 2004 that he was NOT the knoll agent and never left the street. See also this video:

Johns also said that he saw Youngblood "jump in the back seat with the Vice President," which Senator Yarborough refuted. And the news man who offered Johns a ride in their car said that he met up with him at the top of the Knoll. I'm pretty sure Johns was lying.

(I also don't think Johns was necessarily the man running towards the car, who was hi lighted in the clip.)

And witnesses like the Newman's who saw SS men running up the knoll with their guns drawn.

In an acoustical perception phenomenon involving the acoustic shockwave (illustration of this in the HSCA diagrams), Douglas Jackson would have been in a position to perceive the shot as having come from the knoll. Jackson was, I believe, the "Knoll Rider). Paul Landis was pointing up the knoll, too. Bobby Hargis started up that way (he was also in a position to pick up the acoustic shockwave) before returning to street. It all gave the impression that there was a shooter up there. But it was against protocol to not stay with the protectee (his reason for lying). If Johns was just in the street, why didn't the VP follow-up car stop just long enough for him to dive back in?

And then there's the "blond agent." I believe this was most likely a new agent (just as Hickey was four-months new to the SS) since Clint Hill in The Kennedy Detail documentary said something about "brand-new agents" (plural) being used. I think this "Blond Agent" was in the VP follow-up car rear seat between Taylor and Johns. Otherwise, there were 3 men in the front (driver, civilian, Kivett), and only 2 in the back--which makes no sense to me. Why would you crowd the driver, when you didn't have to?

By Johns' report, he didn't arrive at Parkland (about 5 minutes away) until something like 20-25 minutes after the assassination. That gives him 15-20 minutes in Dealey Plaza. 

It's not illegal to lie in an interview. Where's Johns' under-oath testimony? I''m pretty sure there was a reason why only Kellerman, Greer, and Hill were called, but no agents from the follow-up car at the time of the head shot, and no agents from the VP detail.

Edited May 15 by Denise Hazelwood
Add a clarification. Fixed a typo "Doublas"-->"Douglas"

[Denise Hazelwood]

In addition for it being against protocol to leave the protectee (as one reason for Lem Johns to lie), there was also the pool of blood at the top of the stairs, which I believe was caused by overzealous SS men shooting at or punching an innocent bystander (the Black man running up the stairs). Reports of John Chism being tackled by a SS man (or sometimes "SS man or police man) supports that notion. Conjecture, yes, but not without merit.

[Denise Hazelwood]

Vince,

Re: SS agents at the back of the car--I think it was left to the agents' discretion, depending upon travel speed, etc. Clint Hill could be seen on the back of the car on Main Street, then jumped off and returned to the follow-up car before Houston. Not there for the whole motorcade, but for parts of it.

As far as some of the agents saying that Kennedy ordered them not get on the back of the car, I think that story of Kennedy saying "Tell those Ivy League charletans..." was a lie, intended to deflect blame from the SS. In any case, I don't think an agent on the back of the car would have helped protect JFK from the first shot, which I contend was a frontal shot (forehead entry), so the only difference might have been that if Clint Hill or somebody had been on the back of the car and/or in the process of climbing into the back seat, the AR-15 shot might have hit him instead of Kennedy, so Kennedy might have only suffered one head shot instead of two, and actually Ready (rather than Hill) would have been in a better position to receive the AR-15 shot, and would probably have been killed. Hill said tearfully in one interview that he wished it had been him who had been hit instead of Kennedy. So that whole "no agents on the back of the limo" was probably just concocted to protect the SS's (in general) and Ready's (specifically) reputations--that whole "band of brothers" thing.

My 2 cents.

[Denise Hazelwood]

Also, as far as Emory Roberts ordering the agents "Not to move," what he actually did was order Ready (who had jumped off after Hill) back to the car. Kinney had to swerve to the right to avoid hitting Clint Hill. (I think it's in the agents' HSCA interviews, which isn't online anymore, but I have that in my documentary--episode 1). If Ready had run up to the limo, Kinney would have probably run over him. 

(I also think Roberts may have called Ready back to the follow-up car with the aid of a pea-whistle, which can be heard in the dicta belt. So there may not be anything nefarious there.

What is obvious to me, however, is that the public hasn't been given the whole truth about the assassination. And that makes me very angry.

[Denise Hazelwood]

Also, Clint Hill had jumped off the follow-up car to run to the back of the limousine before the last shot, which occurred just as he stepped up onto the back step. The Z-film is an altered product. Elsewhere on this forum someone recently posted a stabilized .gif of the frames leading to Z313 but taking out Z313 and the blurry frames. You can see a back-spray from Connally blowing from behind Connally and well in front of Kennedy, backwards to cover Kennedy. (I think this is in the Z317 thread.) Mary Moorman herself said that she heard two more shots after the one when she took her picture, and the next one after her picture (not the Z313 position) was when she saw Kennedy's "hair lift". The Franzens seemed to think there was a head shot when the limousine was about ready to pass their position (in addition to Jack Franzen describing a "firecracker" inside the car with the first shot). 

The key to figuring it all out is understanding that the Z-film is altered, as are other photographic and X-ray images. There was a massive and coordinated cover-up. But a cover-up is not the same as a conspiracy to murder. The cover-up was to hide the AR-15 accident and the general ineptitude of many of the SS agents.

Correction: the .gif is on the 2nd page of the thread "Greatest challenge to conspiracy side; greatest challenge to lone-nut side." Posted by Keven Hofeling. Slow-motion .gif of Z-film frames without the distracting head shot or distracting blurred frames.

Edited May 15 by Denise Hazelwood

[Pamela Brown]

1 hour ago, Vince Palamara said:

AGREED! I get this silly theory thrown at me all the time from non-researchers, especially on social media. Greer was suspect but he did NOT shoot JFK! 

 

However, Greer did slow the limo down almost to a stop, or even an actual stop, and turn to face JFK until the fatal shot had been fired....

[Ron Bulman]

13 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

a mention in the SFM Couch interview of a SS agent asking for a phone and placing a piece of brain tissue on the desk while he used the phone (apparently told to Gary Mack by a “secretary”—I asked Stephen Fagin about it but he didn’t know anything more than that).

I've never heard of this.  Brain on the desk?

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Doublas Jackson would have been in a position to perceive the shot as having come from the knoll. Jackson was, I believe, the "Knoll Rider).

Who was Doublass Jackson/aka the "Knoll Rider?

[Denise Hazelwood]

1 minute ago, Ron Bulman said:

I've never heard of this.  Brain on the desk?

It was Stephen Fagin telling Couch in Couch's SFM interview. I asked Fagin about it, and he said it was something Gary Mack had said to him. That was all he knew.

From my transcript of the 2007 interview of Malcolm Couch (who by that time had apparently earned his doctorate). Here it says "official," but Couch was describing a "well-dressed man" (which describes Weitzman) picking up a blob of brain matter or something on the street, and carrying it to the area in the front of the TSBD where he then gave this to a SS man. This account matches Weitzman's of picking up what he thought was a "firecracker" from the street and giving this object to a SS man. Weitzman later found out it was a chunk of the President's skull. So...Couch followed Weitzman, who picked up a chunk of brain matter and skull from the street. Weitzman gave it to a SS man. Somewhere in this process, the skull/brain matter was dropped, leaving a spot (not a pool) of blood on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD.

From my transcript of Couch's 2007 SFM interview (from the transcript, it seems clear that Couch had a stutter):

 

Quote

 

Stephen: No, no one else has mentioned the blood on the sidewalk.

Malcom: Or the brain matter?

Stephen: Yeah. And, well, yeah, well the brain matter, I, I, I recall a few people

mentioning, like seeing stuff in the street. (Malcom looks startled) But…

Malcom: Cause, see, I was the, I, I always thought I was the only guy who reported

that, or ma, made mention of it.

Stephen: There was a secretary from the schoolbook depository that remembers an

official putting a chunk of brain matter on her desk, just to hold it there for a minute

while he was questioning people, so that might’ve been what sa…

Malcom: (looks really startled, arms fly to sides) I got goosebumps. (55:12) Cause

it’s, it’s, it’s c, it’s corroborating what I’m, think I, think I… what I think I think I’m

saying. (smiles)

 

 

[Denise Hazelwood]

12 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Who was Doublass Jackson/aka the "Knoll Rider?

Sorry, typo. My bad. DOUGLAS Jackson, the motorcycle escort officer riding behind Chaney on the right rear outboard of the limousine.