Fritz HSCA interview?

[Greg Doudna]

The HSCA Report, volume 9, page 1121, endnote 64, refers to "interview of Fritz, Sept. 24, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 4 (JFK Document 002370)."

I cannot find that HSCA interview of Fritz on the Mary Ferrell Foundation site. Has anyone seen that HSCA interview of Fritz or know how to access it?

[Mark Ulrik]

Does this link (to the Malcolm Blunt Archive) work for you?

[Jean Ceulemans]

2 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Does this link (to the Malcolm Blunt Archive) work for you?

Thanks Mark, I had been looking last night to find it.

I think if I was to loose my car keys you´d know where to find them 😀 

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Does this link (to the Malcolm Blunt Archive) work for you?

Perfect Mark, that's it -- thank you!

 

[Mark Ulrik]

Tom Gram was kind enough to once lead me to the proverbial water (in this post).

From there it's a matter of navigating to a promising folder:

Malcolm Blunt Archive > Dallas - Texas > DPD > Will Fritz

(This was after having hit a few dead ends.)

[Greg Doudna]

This was just an "icebreaker", an "informal" conversation with "no notes...taken during the actual conversation".

If this is all HSCA got, it is pathetic.

Did Fritz ask Oswald about intelligence agency contacts? What did Oswald say about that?

Did Fritz ever ask Oswald about the rifle?

Did Oswald speak to Fritz confidentially about anything?

This HSCA conversation took place Sept 24, 1977.

On Aug 23, 1976, a story in the Village Voice quoted ATF agent Frank Ellsworth as saying Fritz called him over to question Oswald, Ellsworth says about the rifle, and tat Ellsworth did so. Ellsworth's presence and questioning of Oswald is not known in any report of Fritz or anyone else at the time. If that was true, why did Fritz not report it earlier?

Did Oswald privately give Fritz any name to call to vouch for him?

Such a short conversation, so innocuous, of Fritz. 

From the HSCA document, first words:

"Note: The term "informal interview" is used because no notes were taken during the actual conversation. It was felt by both investigators that any attempt to transcribe the conversation between Captain Fritz and ourselves would have caused Captain Fritz to halt conversation. We were dealing with a subject who is 81+ years of age.

"DOB 6/15/96. He has just been operated on for removal of his prostate. While his mind is reasonably clear, he must still be considered .. "fragile". This interview was an "icebreaker". We expect to talk to Fritz again!"

Did HSCA ever go back to Fritz? Subpoena him? 

If so, is there a record?

Maybe they didn't. If not, pathetic.

The question is whether Oswald "talked", but privately, to Fritz, of things that were not reported. 

Fritz told the HSCA he sometimes took notes. He said he did not with Oswald during the mere 12 hours of interrogation over three days he had him and Oswald was talking, even though he did with other interrogations sometimes. That behavior combined with the importance of the case sounds to me like Fritz was having some questionings taped, never mind his denials. If Fritz didn't get that done on his own, one of the feds would have quietly had that set up for him. It defies belief that that would not have been done.

No wonder Fritz never gave interviews, never talked publicly after the assassination, and is even frosty and cold shoulder to HSCA in this conversation. 

The man wasn't telling everything. And he had things which could have been told--I think. But its gone now, the opportunity to question him that is.

 

[Mark Ulrik]

There was a follow-up interview a month later, but only the first page (or most of it) of the two-page memo is available in the MBA. It's HSCA JFK Doc 003051 (RIF# 180-10107-10177) and released in full since 1993, according to the NA.

[Robert Morrow]

Speaking of Will Fritz - agree or disagree with the following - any commentary would be appreciated.

Did Lyndon Johnson actually call Will Fritz and tell him to quit interviewing Lee Harvey Oswald. If so, when did this phone call occur?

I am leaning towards Sunday morning just a little while before Oswald was assassinated by Jack Ruby.

Lyndon Johnson personally told Dallas Police Detective Capt. Will Fritz to STOP questioning Oswald

The time of the LBJ call must have occurred on Sunday morning 11/24/1963 because Oswald was questioned by Dallas police as late as just before 11:15AM Sunday morning

The questioning of Oswald was on Saturday at 10:35AM, then12:35PM and 6PM. At 11:15AM the transfer party leaves Fritz’ office after a final round of questions.

 

 

There is an extremely important passage in Noel Twyman's Bloody Treason; it is on pages 792 to 803 of the hardback version. Twyman details and confirms Lyndon Johnson PERSONALLY calling Will Fritz late on Saturday 11/23/63 and telling him to QUIT interrogating Oswald.

 

The fix had been in on Oswald since 14 minutes after the JFK assassination when Marguerite Oswald’s 1960 physical description of him to the FBI was broadcast all over the Dallas police radio five times within 24 minutes.

Author Noel Twyman spoke to 2 people: Frank B. Harrell and Jim Leavelle. Here is what Twyman says about his meeting with Harrell:

"He was very cooperative. He remembered the lunch and confirmed that Captain Fritz told that story, that Lyndon Johnson had called and ordered Captain Fritz to pull off questioning Oswald."

 

[Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason, p. 794]

"Harrell says that Fritz was 'pulled off because he was getting too close.' He said that in 'a couple of more hours he'd have broken Oswald, but they pulled Oswald out.'"

[Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason, p. 794]

 

It is just another example of Lyndon Johnson being so swift and furious with the cover up of the JFK assassination; remember the day before he was telling two people a Dallas cop and Gen. Godfrey McHugh that there was an "international conspiracy."

 

Sandy Larsen 4/24/24 Education Forum post on Will Fritz interviewing Oswald on Sunday morning 11/24/1963

 

Under Cover of Night - Page 3 - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

 

If that is true, Captain Fritz ignored LBJ's order.

Excerpted from the report of the Oswald interrogation that took place in Fritz's office on 11/24/1963 at 9:30 AM:

This interview started at approximately 9:30 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963. The interview was conducted in the office of Captain WIll Fritz of the Homicide Bureau, Dallas Police. Present at the interview in addition to Oswald were Captain Fritz, Postal Inspector Holmes, SAIC Sorrels, Inspector Kelley and four members of the Homicide Squad. The interview had just begun when I arrived and Captain Fritz was again requesting Oswald to identify the place where the photograph of him holding the gun was taken. Captain Fritz indicated that it would save the Police a great deal of time if he would tell them where the place was located. Oswald refused to discuss the matter. Captain Fritz asked, "Are you a Communist?" Oswald answered, "No, I am a Marxist but I am not a Marxist Leninist." Captain Fritz asked him what the difference was and Oswald said it would take too long to explain it to him. Oswald said that he became interested in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee while he was in New Orleans; that he wrote to the Committee's Headquarters in New York and received some Committee literature and a letter signed by Alex Hidell. He stated that he began to distribute that literature in New Orleans and it was at that time that he got into an altercation with a group and he was arrested. He said his opinions concerning Fair Play for Cuba are well known; that he appeared on Bill Stukey's television program in New Orleans on a number of occasions and was interviewed by the local press often.

He denies knowing or ever seeing Hidell in New Orleans, said he believed in all of the tents of the Fair Play for Cuba and the things which the Fair Play for Cuba Committee stood for, which was free intercourse with Cuba and freedom for tourists of both countries to travel within each other's borders.

Among other things, Oswald said that Cuba should have full diplomatic relationship with the United States. I asked him if he thought that the President's assassination would have any effect on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He said there would be no change in the attitude of the American people toward Cuba with President Johnson becoming President because they both belonged to the same political party and the one would follow pretty generally the policies of the other . He stated that he is an avid reader of Russian literature whether it is communistic or not; that he subscribes to "The Militant," which, he says, is the weekly of the Socialist party in the United States (it is a copy of "the Militant" that Oswald is shown holding in the photograph taken form this effects at Irving Street). At that time he asked me whether I was an FBI Agent and I said that I was not that I was a member of the Secret Service. He said when he was standing in front of the Textbook Building and about to leave it, a young crew-cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service, showed a book of identification, and asked him where the phone was. Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left.

I asked Oswald whether as a Marxist he believed that religion was an opiate of the people and he said very definitely so that all organized religions tend to become monopolistic and are the causes of a great deal of class warfare. I asked him whether he considered the Catholic Church to be an enemy of the Communist philosophy and he said well, there was no Catholicism in Russia; that the closest to it is the Orthodox Churches but he said he would not further attempt to have him say something which could be construed as being anti-religious or anti-Catholic.

Capt. Fritz displayed an Enco street map of Dallas which had been found among Oswald's effects at the rooming house. Oswald was asked whether the map was his and wheter he had put some marks on it. He said it was his and remarked "My God don't tell me there's a mark near where this thing happened." The mark was pointed out to him and he said "What about the other marks on the map?I put a number of marks on it. I was looking for work and marked the places where I went for jobs or where I heard there were jobs."

Since it was obvious to Captain Fritz that Oswald was not going to be cooperative, he terminated the interview at that time.

 

J.J. Anderson email to Robert Morrow on 5/27/2024 – Maybe Will Fritz was taking the phone call from LBJ while Secret Service’s Forrest Sorrels was talking with Oswald on Sunday morning Nov. 24, 1963

 

J.J. Anderson:

 

QUOTE

 

This account, by Forrest Sorrels, tends to suggest that his little chat re the niceties of Marxism/Leninism with Lee may have occurred while Fritz was absent (possibly taking LBJ's call?)  It's all so totally abstract and irrelevant, isn't it?  Just like the pre-digested TV interview.  Sounds like he is killing time, a conversation which deliberately has nowhere to go -- and which does not suggest in any sense that Lee is reluctant to talk.  The interview as recorded indicates a short one, so possibly before 11am?

 

Now, at 11 am,  why would Fritz come back to the interview to show Lee a map -- this must have been earlier.  Fritz has to arrange transport for Lee to the County Jail - the prison truck doesn't fit into the underground parking, and has to be reversed onto the street.  Will Fritz has to summon his car, and arrange for it to be reversed in from the opposite entrance.  At this time Jack Ruby is making his way from the Post Office, in through a side entrance where he is not apparently seen.  As he enters the car park, whoever is driving Fritz's car is blowing the horn - there is a camera crew in the way -- or as a signal to Fritz.  So who was driving Fritz's car?

 

UNQUOTE

 

My God, it looks like Lyndon Johnson called Will Fritz and told him to stop questioning Oswald around 11AM on Sunday 11/24/63 and Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby at 11:21AM! Then LBJ calls Parkland Hospital, speaks to Dr. Charles Crenshaw and tells him to get a CONFESSION out of the accused assassin.

If it is true that President Lyndon Johnson called Will  Fritz and told him to STOP questioning Oswald, then that LBJ phone call must have occurred on Sunday morning, because if PRESIDENT JOHNSON had called on Saturday and told Will Fritz to STOP INTERVIEWING OSWALD the Will Fritz would not have been interviewing Oswald again on Sunday morning.

Timeline of Lee Harvey Oswald's life - Interactive Timeline of the Life of Lee Harvey Oswald (jfk-assassination.net)

So that means LBJ calls Will Fritz around maybe 11AM to 11:15AM on Sunday 11/24/1963.

Then Lee Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby at exactly 11:21 AM (very soon after LBJ phone call to Fritz)

Then Lyndon Johnson calls Parkland Hospital the next hour while Oswald is under surgery and talks with Dr. Charles Crenshaw and tells him to get a CONFESSION from the accused assassin. LBJ was not asking Oswald who sent you to kill JFK or did you have any confederates, but rather you need to CONFESS to killing JFK.

I think LBJ knew that Jack Ruby was in place and that it was time to kill Oswald. So let's stop the Fritz interview before Oswald tells everyone he is CIA; then let's put a bullet in Oswald and then maybe if we are lucky we can get a confession out him. After Oswald was dead, LBJ knew that EVERYTHING could be played on Oswald.

QUOTE

Sunday, November 24, 1963

 9:30 AM: LHO is signed out of jail in anticipation of a transfer to the county facility.

 11:15 AM: The transfer party leaves Fritz' office after a final round of questions.

 11:21 AM: LHO is shot by Jack Ruby in the basement of the Dallas city jail.

 1:07 PM: LHO is pronounced dead at Parkland Hospital.

 Sources

What is the most likely day for LBJ to have called Will Fritz and told him to STOP INTERVIEWING Lee Harvey Oswald? I say it was Sunday morning, 11/24/1963 because if LBJ had made the call on Saturday then no in depth grilling of Oswald would have occurred on Sunday.

Lyndon Johnson’s Presidential Daily Diary entries

 

For 11/24/1963 President's Daily Diary entry, 11/24/1963 · Discover Production (discoverlbj.org)

 

For 11/23/1963 https://www.discoverlbj.org/item/pdd-19631123

[Joe Bauer]

If Dr. Crenshaw told the truth, that a phone call from LBJ himself was directed to him in the surgical room while Oswald was still alive and being treated there, then I believe this suggest a mind-blowing revelation.

There would be absolutely no reason for LBJ to get that personally involved and do something like that.

Except as a desperate act of control of the Oswald problem. So desperate that LBJ decided he personally had to intervene in the minute-by-minute life and death treatment situation of Oswald. To know whether Oswald may say something that could blow the entire story out of the water.

Oswald could not be allowed to make a confession that in any way suggested a conspiracy.

Did LBJ tell Dr. Crenshaw that a man was standing by ready to take a confession from Oswald if the poor soul might still be able to talk?

How ridiculously improbable and illogical.

And was that man an Oliver Hardy look-a-like? In a surgical gown?

Maybe a William Harvey look-a-like?

Maybe with a hidden syringe at the ready to take a blabbing Oswald out in two seconds?

Sounds wild...but everything else about the JFK/Oswald murders was wild and suspicious as well.

Anything was possible. So who knows?

The corruption factor in LBJ's world was out of this world.

And our government had done things so illegal in the name of fighting communism in so many ways and in so many countries (including our own ) for decades no JFK/Oswald who-done-it theory is off the table.

LBJ's personal call to the Oswald surgeon head is just too damn desperate and illogical. Any number of subordinates would have and should have made that call including LBJ's brother close J. Edgar Hoover.

But not LBJ himself.

 

 

Edited August 10 by Joe Bauer

[Greg Doudna]

13 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

There was a follow-up interview a month later, but only the first page (or most of it) of the two-page memo is available in the MBA. It's HSCA JFK Doc 003051 (RIF# 180-10107-10177) and released in full since 1993, according to the NA.

Thanks for this Mark. Is it possible to work your magic and come up with that second page? 🙂