Did JFK's Inflammatory Orange Bowl Speech and Promises Trigger the JFKA?

[Kevin Balch]

4 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Communism, socialism, and financial losses for Wall Street banks and corporations.

In Indonesia, for example, Allen Dulles and the Rockefellers wanted the gold, and other resources.

That's why LBJ green-lighted the CIA's coup against Sukarno, after JFK's murder.

In the Congo, the Katanga resources were the prize.

I guess Jackie Kennedy was part of the conspiracy as her companion in her final years was Maurice Templesman who profited from blood diamonds in the Congo.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Tempelsman

[Robert Morrow]

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Robert,

      Have you read The Devil's Chessboard, JFK vs. Allen Dulles,  and America's Last President?

      JFK was, certainly, up against Dulles, Angleton, the Cabells, Ed Lansdale, and several of the Joint Chiefs.

       Many of those guys were vehemently opposed to JFK's policy decisions in Cuba, Africa, Latin America, and Southeast Asia (including Indonesia.)

      Are you familiar with JFK's confrontations with the General Curtis "Bombs Away" LeMay and the Joint Chiefs during the Cuban Missile Crisis?

I skimmed and read parts of the Devil's Chessboard, but that is not what I asked. I did not ask who had a problem with JFK (many, many people did), I simply asked who orchestrated/arranged/made possible the murder or JFK and why did they do it.

Is your answer Allen Dulles, James Angleton, Charles and Earle Cabell, Ed Lansdale and Gen. Curtis LeMay orchestrated the JFK assassination.

If so, what is the evidence against these men in JFK's murder and specifically why did they do it?

For example, you could say Allen Dulles handed out a book on Assassins to the Warren Commission members and told there, here in the USA conspiracies don't kill presidents, only lone nuts (like Oswald) kill presidents. In my view that is Allen Dulles obviously using a very desperate and silly tactic, such ridiculous non-supported logic game, to cover up the recent murder or John Kennedy. Therefore, that makes me seriously wonder if he was part of the plot to murder JFK.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Robert Morrow said:

I skimmed and read parts of the Devil's Chessboard, but that is not what I asked. I did not ask who had a problem with JFK (many, many people did), I simply asked who orchestrated/arranged/made possible the murder or JFK and why did they do it.

Is your answer Allen Dulles, James Angleton, Charles and Earle Cabell, Ed Lansdale and Gen. Curtis LeMay orchestrated the JFK assassination.

If so, what is the evidence against these men in JFK's murder and specifically why did they do it?

For example, you could say Allen Dulles handed out a book on Assassins to the Warren Commission members and told there, here in the USA conspiracies don't kill presidents, only lone nuts (like Oswald) kill presidents. In my view that is Allen Dulles obviously using a very desperate and silly tactic, such ridiculous non-supported logic game, to cover up the recent murder or John Kennedy. Therefore, that makes me seriously wonder if he was part of the plot to murder JFK.

Complicated questions, Robert.

Wasn't Oswald one of Angleton's boys?

Dulles, certainly, had the means and motives to assassinate JFK, and he was at the Farm on 11/22/63.

Then he and Angleton controlled the "evidence" and narrative at the Warren Commission hearings, with assistance from Hoover and Ford.

Charles Cabell and Lansdale were Dulles's factotums.

Earl Cabell was recently outed as a CIA asset, and he was in the lead car of the Dealey Plaza motorcade, if I recall correctly.

Above all, Dulles and his CIA associates ran Mockingbird.

The evidence is circumstantial, because these guys had the wherewithal to cover their tracks.

They even murdered critically important witnesses.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

I skimmed and read parts of the Devil's Chessboard, but that is not what I asked. I did not ask who had a problem with JFK (many, many people did), I simply asked who orchestrated/arranged/made possible the murder or JFK and why did they do it.

Is your answer Allen Dulles, James Angleton, Charles and Earle Cabell, Ed Lansdale and Gen. Curtis LeMay orchestrated the JFK assassination.

If so, what is the evidence against these men in JFK's murder and specifically why did they do it?

For example, you could say Allen Dulles handed out a book on Assassins to the Warren Commission members and told there, here in the USA conspiracies don't kill presidents, only lone nuts (like Oswald) kill presidents. In my view that is Allen Dulles obviously using a very desperate and silly tactic, such ridiculous non-supported logic game, to cover up the recent murder or John Kennedy. Therefore, that makes me seriously wonder if he was part of the plot to murder JFK.

RM--

This is the agonizing part of the JFKA.

As there is no concrete evidence of LHO's co-conspirators, multiple leads can go in several directions...and have been fleshed out by reasonable people. 

Larry Hancock's SWHT shows some level of pre-JFKA foreknowledge, almost always among people connected to the JMWave CIA Station, Cuban exiles, and related mercs. That is about as concrete as it gets. 

I disagree with your explanation of the JFKA, as I do not see the LBJ mafia having the resources to perp the siamese-twin RFK1A, or the Scott Enyart photo heist of 1996. 

IMHO, only US intel has the institutional memory and resources to perp those related events. 

BTW, this does not necessarily mean CIA. John Newman has been dropping hints the US Army intel was involved in the JFKA. 

I disagree with the somewhat Olympian Vincent Salandria approach, that we have already divined that globalist elites perped the JFKA, and now we must explain the why and the consequences. 

It is amazing how many in the EF-JFKA can divine the Truth. I seem to lack the knack. 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 01:16 AM by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

     You really need to re-read Wiesak's detailed history of the Cuban Missile Crisis, (if you have, in fact, read her book, as you claim.)

     Your concept of how JFK managed that 1962 crisis is completely inaccurate.

     JFK's approach to the crisis was the precise opposite of "brinksmanship."

      He went out of his way to de-escalate the crisis-- giving Khruschev as much room as possible to resolve the crisis peacefully.

If you have read Wiesak's book, as you claim, you will realize that the extensive JFK Administration plans to invade Cuba, developed during 1962, and involving 261,000 troops, are entirely absent from her work.

Why such an oversight? 

As JFK's florid Orange Bowl speech, bellicsoe, and truculently vowing to regime change op led by the BoP brigade, delivered late in the year.   

Yet Weisak published her book five years after the 2017 USA Today report on the JFK Administration plans to invade Cuba. Why such an oversight? 

Weisak is a desert chef, and she has prepared a banana-split of a book. Very sweet.  

I will admit that slopping down some onions, meat-and-potatoes into a banana split is unseemly.  

But a sugar-only book is a poor diet. 

In fact, perhaps Castro caught wind of the planned 261,000-US troop invasion being planned by the JFK Administration, and installed missiles as a defensive measure. Reasonable enough, given the small size of the Cuban conventional forces. (None of this makes Russia or Cuba nice guys. I think otherwise). 

There is no doubt that if Cuba and Russia did not remove the missiles, JFK was willing to wage a nuclear war. JFK himself put the odds of the nuclear war at "50/50." 

Yes, JFK agreed to a transactional end to the CMC, removing missiles rom Turkey in exchange for the removal of missiles from Cuba. That was a good choice, IMHO. 

I have read too many accounts of the CMC to remember. Weisak's is the most hagiographic. But only lately I came across he 2017 USA Today story regarding the 1962 large-scale Kennedy Administration plans to invade Cuba, and JFK's Dec. 1962 Orange Bowl vow to effect regime change in Havana. 

Ask yourself: Why did Weisak not include the evolving large-scale  Kennedy Administration plan to invade Cuba, and JFK's Orange Bowl speech in her book? 

Curating history, by any chance? Revising JFK to fit her alt-left agenda? 

Give it some thought. Expand your outlooks.  Engage in contemplation. 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

Ben,

    Are you aware that JFK refused to attack Cuba with U.S. military forces TWICE -- in April of 1961 and in October of 1962 -- precisely because he didn't want to start a war with the Soviet Union?

    What does that tell you?

    He was under extreme pressure from Curtis LeMay and the Joint Chiefs to bomb Cuba back to the Stone Age in October of 1962, and he said, "No!"

     As for "invasion plans," they often exist in the Pentagon, from what I've heard, and I don't doubt that LeMay and the Joint Chiefs had drafted "invasion plans" for Cuba in 1961 and 1962.

    But that doesn't mean that JFK intended to invade Cuba, especially after his October deal with Khruschev.

    If you still can't figure that out, re-read Wiesak's excellent text.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RM--

This is the agonizing part of the JFKA.

As there is no concrete evidence of LHO's co-conspirators, multiple leads can go in several directions...and have been fleshed out by reasonable people. 

Larry Hancock's SWHT shows some level of pre-JFKA foreknowledge, almost always among people connected to the JMWave CIA Station, Cuban exiles, and related mercs. That is about as concrete as it gets. 

I disagree with your explanation of the JFKA, as I do not see the LBJ mafia having the resources to perp the siamese-twin RFK1A, or the Scott Enyart photo heist of 1996. 

IMHO, only US intel has the institutional memory and resources to perp those related events. 

BTW, this does not necessarily mean CIA. John Newman has been dropping hints the US Army intel was involved in the JFKA. 

I disagree with the somewhat Olympian Vincent Salandria approach, that we have already divined that globalist elites perped the JFKA, and now we must explain the why and the consequences. 

It is amazing how many in the EF-JFKA can divine the Truth. I seem to lack the knack. 

 

 

Who ran the Operation Mockingbird JFKA psy op, Ben?

Who ran international assassination black ops for Uncle Sam?

Who controlled the Warren Commission evidence and narrative?

Who handled Oswald?

What was the "Secret Team," according to the Joint Chiefs liaison to the CIA in 1963?

There's no "divining" process involved in analyzing the available evidence.

[Benjamin Cole]

16 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Who ran the Operation Mockingbird JFKA psy op, Ben?

Who ran international assassination black ops for Uncle Sam?

Who controlled the Warren Commission evidence and narrative?

Who handled Oswald?

What was the "Secret Team," according to the Joint Chiefs liaison to the CIA in 1963?

There's no "divining" process involved in analyzing the available evidence.

William, William, William---

Sure, there was a great deal of post-JFKA complicity. Tink Thompson said as much in the mid-late 1960s. Sylvia Meagher's excellent book, Accessories After the Fact, written in 1967 (I think I read it that year, or in 1968, back when we had paper books) recounts much the same. 

My first suspect is the CIA-JMWave Miami Station, Cuban exile-merc community.  Even if the JFKA was perped by rogue CIA officers or assets, that still had to be covered up. 

But surely elements of Army intel might have been involved, or even taking the lead. The US Army was tight with Alpha 66, as I recall. No gunsels therein? 

Interesting: 

"Early on, some members of Alpha 66 also partook in the United States-sponsored Volunteer Program, which allowed Cuban exiles to form all-Cuban military units within the United States Army.^[5] A 1964 FBI memo confirmed that Veciana, Menoyo and Andrés Nazario Sargen were all assets of US Army intelligence.^[6] Additionally, members of Alpha 66 received limited funding and training from the CIA; however, this support did not last.^[7] The CIA found that it had little control over the actions of Alpha 66 and, in many cases, Alpha 66 carried out operations without the CIA's approval or consultation, leading to the CIA ending its involvement with the group, which in turn caused many Alpha 66 members to become disillusioned with the United States government for its lack of support.^[4]"

You think these guys might be able of perping the JFKA? Perhaps. Might they have listened to JFK's florid and bellicose Orange Bowl speech, vowing regime change in Havana...and then felt jilted? On top of what happened at the BoP? 

That is what this thread is about---could JFK have riled up the crowd in the Orange Bowl...only to jilt them, and they took umbrage, and they were not the sort of people you want to cross? 

If you have any concrete explanations and evidence of the JFKA, bring them on. My eyes are the size of saucer plates.

We all know the usual suspects. But that is all they are...suspects. 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

55 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

    Are you aware that JFK refused to attack Cuba with U.S. military forces TWICE -- in April of 1961 and in October of 1962 -- precisely because he didn't want to start a war with the Soviet Union?

    What does that tell you?

    He was under extreme pressure from Curtis LeMay and the Joint Chiefs to bomb Cuba back to the Stone Age in October of 1962, and he said, "No!"

     As for "invasion plans," they often exist in the Pentagon, from what I've heard, and I don't doubt that LeMay and the Joint Chiefs had drafted "invasion plans" for Cuba in 1961 and 1962.

    But that doesn't mean that JFK intended to invade Cuba, especially after his October deal with Khruschev.

    If you still can't figure that out, re-read Wiesak's excellent text.

"But that doesn't mean that JFK intended to invade Cuba, especially after his October deal with Khruschev."--William.

Unfortunately, the historical record is JFK spoke in Dec. 1962 in the Orange Bowl, and delivered a most hoary and bellicose vow to effect regime change in Havana, and install the BoP brigade in Castro's place. 

How would JFK effect regime change in Cuba, without sending 261,000 troops?  

Interesting topic.

Keep an open mind. 

[W. Niederhut]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"But that doesn't mean that JFK intended to invade Cuba, especially after his October deal with Khruschev."--William.

Unfortunately, the historical record is JFK spoke in Dec. 1962 in the Orange Bowl, and delivered a most hoary and bellicose vow to effect regime change in Havana, and install the BoP brigade in Castro's place. 

How would JFK effect regime change in Cuba, without sending 261,000 troops?  

Interesting topic.

Keep an open mind. 

Well, I'll try again.  Perhaps the third time is the charm.

The post-Cuban Missile Crisis speech in the Orange Bowl sounds like politicized damage control to me-- not serious policy.

JFK had just agreed to refrain from invading Cuba in exchange for Khruschev removing the nukes.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Well, I'll try again.  Perhaps the third time is the charm.

The post-Cuban Missile Crisis speech in the Orange Bowl sounds like politicized damage control to me-- not serious policy.

JFK had just agreed to refrain from invading Cuba in exchange for Khruschev removing the nukes.

Well, you have the last say. 

Evidently there are controversies regarding the JFK Administration's true sentiments towards Cuba, and if RFK1 was involved in certain covert acts, and how much JFK knew about various covert acts against Cuba.  

I assume JFK knew the effect his inflammatory Orange Bowl speech would have on the Cuban exile community, and they may might take it to heart. 

On topic: Could that bellicose podium-pounding tirade against Castro in the Orange Bowl, vowing regime-change in Cuba and installation of the BoP brigade in Havana...have triggered anger in the Cuban exile community for promises unkept, and then triggered the JFKA? 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

If you still can't figure that out, re-read Wiesak's excellent text.

I'm not sure he has read it.  He stated if you had read it, as you claim, you would have known . . . something that is not in the book.  Never says, yes, I read it.

This comment makes me wonder as well.

Weisak is a desert chef, and she has prepared a banana-split of a book. Very sweet.  

I will admit that slopping down some onions, meat-and-potatoes into a banana split is unseemly.  

But a sugar-only book is a poor diet. 

Not much meat and potatoes in that comment.  Her book, as some of us who have read it know is one of the best things to come out in years relating to the JFK assassination.  JFK was being bellicose?

 

[Benjamin Cole]

It appears JFK, at least in some regards, tried to honor his regime-change op promise of Dec. 1962. 

Egads, it looks like LBJ finally scaled back anti-Cuba actions. 

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/cuba/2019-10-03/kennedy-cuba-operation-mongoose

"In this climate of increasing doubt (post CMC), the CIA proposed a new, integrated sabotage/harassment program aimed at Castro. The 5412 Group, the covert operations approval authority that had predated and subsumed the Special Group (Augmented), discussed the new plan on April 11. Mr. Bundy told the members the plan had more or less been developed at the direction of higher authority. The president sought to get a feel for CIA capabilities and what might be expected from a series of activities. Kennedy did not intend to approve specific operations at this point. The draft plan (Document 29) was the most comprehensive since the Mongoose series of 1962. Director McCone, perhaps hoping to not repeat the same mistakes made during Mongoose, was reluctant to support the plan until Washington had devised a full strategy for Cuba, not only to topple Castro but to get the Soviets out too.[21] On April 15 the CIA director flew to Palm Beach, where President Kennedy was vacationing, to brief current intelligence issues (Document 30). Their conversation included an exchange on the draft plan where McCone repeated his opposition to the operation. Kennedy himself expressed preference for covert operations that came from within Cuba, whereupon Director McCone pointed out that all the operations mentioned in the draft plan were maritime missions from outside Cuba.

From this point on the wheels began to come off the Cuba operation. On April 21, 1963, McGeorge Bundy reacted to 5412 Group demands for a comprehensive strategy with a paper sketching Cuba alternatives. The CIA provided options to the NSC Standing Group on April 30, and the 5412 Group approved a program on May 24. By June 8 Desmond FitzGerald had converted the April draft plan into an integrated action program. It would be approved. Money would be given to Manuel Artime for a new brigade project. A certain number of actual raids were carried out. The White House expressed satisfaction with some in August, and frustration with others in September, when leaks again bedeviled action. Just days before his murder, President Kennedy met with CIA officers to review the Cuba operation and approve the next batch of targets. On December 19 the secret warriors had their first meeting with President Lyndon Baines Johnson on Cuba operations. LBJ opined that sabotage missions with less than a 50 percent chance of success should be cancelled. From May 1964 on, Johnson progressively cut back the Cuba enterprise.

---30---

 

 

[Robert Morrow]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Complicated questions, Robert.

Wasn't Oswald one of Angleton's boys?

Dulles, certainly, had the means and motives to assassinate JFK, and he was at the Farm on 11/22/63.

Then he and Angleton controlled the "evidence" and narrative at the Warren Commission hearings, with assistance from Hoover and Ford.

Charles Cabell and Lansdale were Dulles's factotums.

Earl Cabell was recently outed as a CIA asset, and he was in the lead car of the Dealey Plaza motorcade, if I recall correctly.

Above all, Dulles and his CIA associates ran Mockingbird.

The evidence is circumstantial, because these guys had the wherewithal to cover their tracks.

They even murdered critically important witnesses.

Mayor Earl Cabell, Democrat, ran for Congress in 1964 and defeated hard right Republican Bruce Alger. Congressman Cabell became a reliable tool of Lyndon Johnson when he served in Congress from 1965-1973.

Earle Cabell - Wikipedia

[Benjamin Cole]

5 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I'm not sure he has read it.  He stated if you had read it, as you claim, you would have known . . . something that is not in the book.  Never says, yes, I read it.

This comment makes me wonder as well.

Weisak is a desert chef, and she has prepared a banana-split of a book. Very sweet.  

I will admit that slopping down some onions, meat-and-potatoes into a banana split is unseemly.  

But a sugar-only book is a poor diet. 

Not much meat and potatoes in that comment.  Her book, as some of us who have read it know is one of the best things to come out in years relating to the JFK assassination.  JFK was being bellicose?

 

I read the book, and Douglass' book too. 

IMHO, the books are hagiographies. 

I have my views, and you have yours. 

Can you explain why Weisak never mentions JFK's Orange Bowl speech, or the JFK Administration plans for a 261,000-troop invasion force For Cuba, or his actions in 1963?

Those are topics a balanced book would address. 

Read below as well. Even after the CMC, the Kennedy Administration was hatching plans for Castro's demise. 

If you say you read it (the link below), and you say you understand it, I will take you at your word, and will not challenge your reading comprehension. 

A type of minimal civility one might imitate.  

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/cuba/2019-10-03/kennedy-cuba-operation-mongoose