Limo fragment question

[Tom Gram]

I just had a quick question about the limo fragments. Even prominent lone assassin theorists agree at this point that the alleged cowlick entrance wound is bogus. The prevailing theory from Larry Sturdivan et al. is that the bullet entered JFK’s head near the EOP and exited out the top of his head in a temp cavity induced explosion - basically the WC 2.0. 

To make that trajectory work from the 6th floor without JFK’s face getting blown out requires a pretty sharp deflection angle in the skull in the up/right direction. As we all know, fragments were found in the limo, and both the windshield and windshield frame were dented. For the modern lone assassin theory to hold, those fragments must have come from the head shot, and the dents in the limo must have been caused by those fragments. 

How the hell do you get a bullet from the 6th floor to JFK’s EOP to the limousine windshield? Has anyone attempted a trajectory analysis on this? From the Z-film, it looks like the bullet would need to exit the head at an extremely shallow angle for this to work. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it seems like another potential magic bullet situation with all the angles involved.

If I recall, the windshield frame was dented to the right of the rearview mirror support. JFK was also close to the center of the backseat at Z312. So have a bullet entering the EOP on a downward right-to-left trajectory, traveling in the head on an upward left-to-right trajectory, then exiting on what seems like an almost horizontal, straight ahead trajectory to get to the windshield. 

Can someone explain how EOP lone assassin theorists deal with the limo fragments? To my untrained eyeballs it looks like any reasonable trajectory would have have the bullet exiting the top of JFK’s head and flying way out of the limo. 

[Gerry Down]

The bullet did come in at a shallow angle, about 12 degrees or so. The bullet fragments exited the front of jfks skull in a mushroom-like pattern. Some went up and some went down. Some went left and some went right. One of the fragments that went up hit the windscreen chrome. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 8/12/2024 at 4:25 PM, Tom Gram said:

I just had a quick question about the limo fragments. Even prominent lone assassin theorists agree at this point that the alleged cowlick entrance wound is bogus. The prevailing theory from Larry Sturdivan et al. is that the bullet entered JFK’s head near the EOP and exited out the top of his head in a temp cavity induced explosion - basically the WC 2.0. 

To make that trajectory work from the 6th floor without JFK’s face getting blown out requires a pretty sharp deflection angle in the skull in the up/right direction. As we all know, fragments were found in the limo, and both the windshield and windshield frame were dented. For the modern lone assassin theory to hold, those fragments must have come from the head shot, and the dents in the limo must have been caused by those fragments. 

How the hell do you get a bullet from the 6th floor to JFK’s EOP to the limousine windshield? Has anyone attempted a trajectory analysis on this? From the Z-film, it looks like the bullet would need to exit the head at an extremely shallow angle for this to work. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it seems like another potential magic bullet situation with all the angles involved.

If I recall, the windshield frame was dented to the right of the rearview mirror support. JFK was also close to the center of the backseat at Z312. So have a bullet entering the EOP on a downward right-to-left trajectory, traveling in the head on an upward left-to-right trajectory, then exiting on what seems like an almost horizontal, straight ahead trajectory to get to the windshield. 

Can someone explain how EOP lone assassin theorists deal with the limo fragments? To my untrained eyeballs it looks like any reasonable trajectory would have have the bullet exiting the top of JFK’s head and flying way out of the limo. 

I only know it exists in a number of different types and sizes that could influence a bullet trajectory. Also, hitting it at the top or bottom ("near" can be a lot of spots, and I am really useless in looking at X-rays...). Sometimes it´s not just a flat piece of skull, and it can be rather thick at that spot. It can sit higher or lower when compared to other skulls.

Any ideas on JFK´s type?

As said, I´m no good in X-rays, but it seems to me the proposed trajectory starts rather high on ( or above) the EOP. And I get it when you say his face could have been gone if one folllows the trajectory.

Pictures here just show some types, depending the shape of the lower part of the EOP.  But the bullet wasn´t near that part ( I think...).

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:33 PM by Jean Ceulemans

[Kevin Balch]

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I just had a quick question about the limo fragments. Even prominent lone assassin theorists agree at this point that the alleged cowlick entrance wound is bogus. The prevailing theory from Larry Sturdivan et al. is that the bullet entered JFK’s head near the EOP and exited out the top of his head in a temp cavity induced explosion - basically the WC 2.0. 

To make that trajectory work from the 6th floor without JFK’s face getting blown out requires a pretty sharp deflection angle in the skull in the up/right direction. As we all know, fragments were found in the limo, and both the windshield and windshield frame were dented. For the modern lone assassin theory to hold, those fragments must have come from the head shot, and the dents in the limo must have been caused by those fragments. 

How the hell do you get a bullet from the 6th floor to JFK’s EOP to the limousine windshield? Has anyone attempted a trajectory analysis on this? From the Z-film, it looks like the bullet would need to exit the head at an extremely shallow angle for this to work. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it seems like another potential magic bullet situation with all the angles involved.

If I recall, the windshield frame was dented to the right of the rearview mirror support. JFK was also close to the center of the backseat at Z312. So have a bullet entering the EOP on a downward right-to-left trajectory, traveling in the head on an upward left-to-right trajectory, then exiting on what seems like an almost horizontal, straight ahead trajectory to get to the windshield. 

Can someone explain how EOP lone assassin theorists deal with the limo fragments? To my untrained eyeballs it looks like any reasonable trajectory would have have the bullet exiting the top of JFK’s head and flying way out of the limo. 

How would a shot from the grassy knoll do the same?

[W. Niederhut]

3 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

The bullet did come in at a shallow angle, about 12 degrees or so. The bullet fragments exited the front of jfks skull in a mushroom-like pattern. Some went up and some went down. Some went left and some went right. One of the fragments that went up hit the windscreen chrome. 

Total nonsense.

The fatal bullet struck JFK in the upper right forehead, blasting brain matter and his occipital skull (Harper) fragment backward behind the limo, and knocking his head and body violently back and to the left, as seen in the Zapruder film.

Dr. Michael Chesser has proven, by analysis of the bullet fragments in the skull x-rays, that the frontal bullet was moving posteriorly after striking JFK in the forehead.

[Pat Speer]

41 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

How would a shot from the grassy knoll do the same?

It wouldn't. I spent a few years in the 00's with an anatomically correct skull positioned on a clump of clothes in a laundry basket, and used a plumb line to approximate the trajectory from the supposed cowlick entry, and EOP entry, to supposed exit and on to the windshield frame. It would not work. It was only when I changed the trajectory to impact at the supposed exit that it made any sense. In reviewing the medical evidence, moreover, it became clear that the fatal bullet did not impact at either of the two purported entrances, but at the presumed exit...exactly as proposed by Dr. Clark on 11-22-63. 

[Kevin Balch]

10 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Total nonsense.

The fatal bullet struck JFK in the upper right forehead, blasting brain matter and his occipital skull (Harper) fragment backward behind the limo, and knocking his head and body violently back and to the left, as seen in the Zapruder film.

Dr. Michael Chesser has proven, by analysis of the bullet fragments in the skull x-rays, that the frontal bullet was moving posteriorly after striking JFK in the forehead.

The Harper fragment was found in front of the limo location at frame 313 according to Don Roberdeau’s diagram. Do you have a source that says otherwise?

I thought the autopsy photos were faked.

Edited August 12 by Kevin Balch

[Pat Speer]

5 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Total nonsense.

The fatal bullet struck JFK in the upper right forehead, blasting brain matter and his occipital skull (Harper) fragment backward behind the limo, and knocking his head and body violently back and to the left, as seen in the Zapruder film.

Dr. Michael Chesser has proven, by analysis of the bullet fragments in the skull x-rays, that the frontal bullet was moving posteriorly after striking JFK in the forehead.

Chesser has proven no such thing. There was NO HOLE on the forehead, and Mantik/Horne/Chesser have engaged in a decades-long hoax to convince us there was. 

Think about it. Their theories supposedly revolve around the Parkland witnesses. And yet the one thing all these witnesses were consistent on was that they saw no hole on the forehead. 

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

The bullet did come in at a shallow angle, about 12 degrees or so. The bullet fragments exited the front of jfks skull in a mushroom-like pattern. Some went up and some went down. Some went left and some went right. One of the fragments that went up hit the windscreen chrome. 

That doesn’t answer the question. What’s the precise exit trajectory of the windshield fragments? 

The forward margin of the head wound is well above JFK’s forehead, so for an exiting fragment or intact bullet to collide with the windshield frame you need to be able to draw a straight line from that wound margin to the fragment impact point. Right? 

Looking at the Moorman photo it seems not even close, the top of JFK’s head is pointing out of the limo, but with his head pushed forward in Z313 it looks possible, maybe, but still very shallow. 

Has anyone ever tried to figure this out? We don’t have the precise entrance or exit point but we know JFK’s head position in the limo and have enough info on the wounds to estimate the angles within a reasonable margin of error, I think. 

Yes, I know the head wound is controversial. That’s not what this is about. The burden of proof is on the EOP single assassin theorists to demonstrate that the trajectories could actually work. 

Edited August 12 by Tom Gram

[Pat Speer]

8 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

The Harper fragment was found in front of the limo location at frame 313 according to Don Roberdeau’s diagram. Do you have a source that says otherwise?

I thought the autopsy photos were faked.

Two prominent CTs, Howard Roffman and Millicent Cranor, contacted Harper years apart and asked him to mark a plat of Dealey Plaza where he found the fragment. He placed it well ahead of the limo's location at 313 on both occasions. When I brought this up a few decades back, Dr. Mantik updated his claim the fragment was blasted out the back to be that it was blasted out the back but someone or something moved it to the front. How convenient. 

Edited August 12 by Pat Speer

[Kevin Balch]

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

Two prominent CTs, Howard Roffman and Millicent Cranor, contacted Harper years apart and asked him to mark a plat of Dealey Plaza where he found the fragment. He placed it well ahead of the limo's location at 313 on both occasions. When I brought this up a few decades back, Dr. Mantik updated his claim the fragment was blasted out the back to be that it was blasted out the back but someone or something moved it to the front. How convenient. 

I recall hearing that an animal such as a dog might have moved it. I guess the dog ate the homework!

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

I only know it exists in a number of different types and sizes that could influence a bullet trajectory. Also, hitting it at the top or bottom ("near" can be a lot of spots, and I am really useless in looking at X-rays...). Sometimes it´s not just a flat piece of skull, and it can be rather thick at that spot. It can sit higher or lower when compared to other skulls.

Any ideas on JFK´s type?

As said, I´m no good in X-rays, but it seems to me the proposed trajectory starts rather high on ( or above) the EOP. And I get it when you say his face could have been gone if one folllows the trajectory.

Pictures here just show some types, depending the shape of the lower part of the EOP.  But the bullet wasn´t near that part ( I think...).

 

I actually don’t think the in-skull trajectory is that much of a problem for the EOP lone assassin crowd.

I’m no expert, but I suspect that a bullet striking occipital bone could deflect pretty far from the entrance trajectory. Check out Fig. 8 in this study which shows some FMJ deflection angles on simulated frontal bone: 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5807523/

Presumably, an occipital bone impact could deflect a bullet even more. JFK’s head in Z312 was also leaning pretty far left and forward, so the angle to the exit is not quite as extreme as it seems. 

Still though, we have a bullet allegedly making a fairly sharp right/upward turn on impact and exiting the top of JFK’s head. Even if it’s possible, is it likely? If I recall, the Edgewood tests all blew the face off, and I don’t think they were even shooting at a downward angle. 

We also know for a fact that large fragments never made it out of the limousine. Attempting to connect the alleged in-skull trajectory from the EOP to the windshield impacts seems like it’d be a worthwhile experiment, IMO. 

[W. Niederhut]

47 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Chesser has proven no such thing. There was NO HOLE on the forehead, and Mantik/Horne/Chesser have engaged in a decades-long hoax to convince us there was. 

Think about it. Their theories supposedly revolve around the Parkland witnesses. And yet the one thing all these witnesses were consistent on was that they saw no hole on the forehead. 

 

Pat,

I've studied Dr. Chesser's analysis of the bullet fragments, and find it quite conclusive-- speaking as a physician who has dissected a human skull.

I've also seen patients in ERs with gunshot wounds to the head.  I know what an entry wound to the forehead looks like.

As for the Lone Nut ballistics mythology, can you and Gerry Down kindly show us JFK's facial exit wound here?

A bullet fired from the TSBD and entering JFK's posterior skull would have blown off the right half of his face.

This was demonstrated in ballistics testing on a cadaver with a rifle shot from the TSBD.

I see JFK's right forehead entry wound here, but where's your alleged facial exit wound?

[Johnny Cairns]

In my opinion it is beyond any doubt that President Kennedy suffered a fatal and massive exit wound located in the occipital parietal area of his head. We have over 30 witnesses that have attested to this. 
 

His brain was also, virtually destroyed, with pieces of his cerebellum dripping onto the stretcher that raced him to TR1. 
 

At trial the autopsy would have been exposed for what it was, a sham. It was so poor, so inept an autopsy that 60 years after the fact we still don’t know the origins of the wounds suffered by President Kennedy. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

That doesn’t answer the question. What’s the precise exit trajectory of the windshield fragments? 

The forward margin of the head wound is well above JFK’s forehead, so for an exiting fragment or intact bullet to collide with the windshield frame you need to be able to draw a straight line from that wound margin to the fragment impact point. Right? 

Looking at the Moorman photo it seems not even close, the top of JFK’s head is pointing out of the limo, but with his head pushed forward in Z313 it looks possible, maybe, but still very shallow. 

At z313, JFK is practically looking down at the floorboards. Because his head is tilted so far downwards, this is how an eop entrance shot could exit somewhere out the top right front of jfks head where we see the exit explosion on the z film.